Author Topic: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated  (Read 11619 times)

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Pizza01

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2011, 05:24:46 PM »
do you mean to do the polish and then feed it and refridgrated like regular starters ?


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2011, 05:43:08 PM »
Yes.  Just like a starter...but with Idy/ady   :) just use enough so its ready in 6-8 hours.

Chau
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 05:45:52 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2011, 05:51:31 PM »
Chau,

I never tried an experiment with only using CY in a starter and seeing how long that could last by feeding it flour, but have tried my preferment Lehmann dough poolish (with IDY) in different experiments, when I didnít use it at market.  I left the poolish out at room temperature after it was cold fermented for a number of days old and did also give some of the poolish a little bit of IDY to see what would happen when using it in experiments.  If you want to see where I did those experiments, I can provide the link.  I didnít keep up with that experiment, but also noticed that there was no sourness in the final taste of the pizzas made with that poolish after a number of days.  I left the poolish at room temperature.

Will be interested in seeing how your experiments progress.  ;D

Norma
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Pizza01

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2011, 05:58:08 PM »
yes i am interested  to see norma.

i have to try this starters chau its making so curious just to think about it.

i think 150 gram flour/ and 150 gram water with 1/2 tsp idy will be ready in oven heated for 1 minute in 6 -7 hours.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2011, 06:17:24 PM »
Norma - thank you for telling me about your results.   If you don't mind posting the links, I think there are plenty of members who are interested in your experiments as well.   

What I would be curious to know is how long can someone keep an IDY or CY starter/poolish pure at room temps without contamination from airborne yeast or yeast from the flour.    I think I will start this experiment to see.  It should be fairly obvious if I taste the raw starter daily to see if any new flavors have been introduced.  I would think that I could distinguish even a slight change after daily taste testing.

Michael - I think that you may have gotten sourdough shy from the SD starter you have created.   My suggestion would be to make an ADY or IDY poolish, then starter.  Then bake a loaf of bread and see if you like the flavor.   Then divide that starter into 2 separate jars.   In one of them, feed and allow the starter to get 50% active or so and then mix into it a tablespoon of your natural yeast starter you made awhile back.   Once this new hybrid starter gets fully active, you can discard 1/2 and refeed and use it as your new hybrid starter.   

Hopefully you should find that the bread it makes will not be as sour as the bread made with the original yeasted starter.  Good luck and do post results if you decide to try this.

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2011, 06:27:06 PM »
Chau,  

Thanks for telling me I could put the links to my experiments that I didnít complete on your thread.  I also would be curious to know how long someone can keep an IDY or CY starter/poolish pure at room temperature without contamination from airborne yeast or yeast from flour.  I would be interested if you start those experiments to see what happens.   :)  I am always interested in the experiments you do.  

Norma

Michael,

I donít want to clog up Chauís experiments too much on his thread, but this is where I started with using the leftover IDY poolish in a number of experiments.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123141.html#msg123141 and the following posts starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123166.html#msg123166 and where I posted about if anyone had kept IDY poolish going without adding extra flour and being able to make a successful pizza.  Another link http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123330.html#msg123330
Some of the things I posted about that I learned from those experiments. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123366.html#msg123366    

Norma
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 06:31:40 PM by norma427 »
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Pizza01

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2011, 06:59:53 PM »
Michael - I think that you may have gotten sourdough shy from the SD starter you have created.   My suggestion would be to make an ADY or IDY poolish, then starter.  Then bake a loaf of bread and see if you like the flavor.   Then divide that starter into 2 separate jars.   In one of them, feed and allow the starter to get 50% active or so and then mix into it a tablespoon of your natural yeast starter you made awhile back.   Once this new hybrid starter gets fully active, you can discard 1/2 and refeed and use it as your new hybrid starter.  

Hopefully you should find that the bread it makes will not be as sour as the bread made with the original yeasted starter.  Good luck and do post results if you decide to try this.

Chau
you suggest to make 2, one hybrid and one with my starters (that i just fed today after more then a week or so).
but i am positive that this one will give sour result and i am realy dont like the sour taste. i was happy to hear from you that i can get sourless starters with no starters inside - hybrid starters.
but you  already know i will try to make those 2, which means that if i do that i will have in my fridge 4 jars of starters.
those 2 and the other 2 i made about 2 months ago that i feed with ap and the other one with bf.
but i am preaty sure i am going to dump those first one and stay with the hybrid and the other one with tbs of my starters.
i realy dont like the sour taste. (have i said it before)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 07:28:57 PM by msheetrit »

Pizza01

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2011, 07:24:41 PM »
norma thank you for posting that.
experiments are good as for learning all the time and that what we seek (that and eating a good pie now and then).
i have noticed that you wrote here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123366.html#msg123366
 that you used Farine Ganoro flour, what a coincidence i just made batch with 30/70 this flour and bf i will see tomarrow the result.
how was the pizza with it norma ?

here is the link with flour kind i bought http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13217.msg130259.html#msg130259
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 07:26:18 PM by msheetrit »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2011, 08:03:24 PM »
Michael I am suggesting you make 2 new starters.   The first one will be an IDY or ADY starter.    Once that is established, divide it in 2.   Take 1 and add a tablespoon of your old starter.

This will give you 2 starters.  The first will be flavorless, so you will only taste the flour or plain bread flavor.   The 2nd one or the HYBRID (idy or ady Plus old starter) should give a very mild sourdough flavor.  It should not be sour but rather give you more flavor than the first.   Make sense?

Also before you toss your other starters (that you worked so hard to start), I would recommend drying some out and storing it for future use.

Good luck,
Chau
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 08:05:36 PM by Jackie Tran »


Pizza01

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2011, 08:37:54 PM »
thank you.
i will that and post, it will about a week but i will update.

Offline norma427

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2011, 10:08:30 PM »

i have noticed that you wrote here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123366.html#msg123366
 that you used Farine Ganoro flour, what a coincidence i just made batch with 30/70 this flour and bf i will see tomarrow the result.
how was the pizza with it norma ?

here is the link with flour kind i bought http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13217.msg130259.html#msg130259

Michael,

The pizza made with the flour was good, but it was just an experiment, using the leftover poolish.  Best of luck with your pizza using the same flour.  :)

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2011, 11:26:53 AM »
Made some bread last night and this morning with the hybrid starter and despite using a high hydration dough and letting these ferment out well, I got less of a tang than normal. ???

20% young hybrid starter, 1st loaf was fermented at RT 75F for ~7.5 hours.   2nd loaf was fermented for 5 hours at RT, then cold fermented overnight for 11 hours, then 2 hours at RT and baked.

I did not notice an increase in the flavor of the overnight CF bread, but it did have a much better crumb structure therefore texture.  Both breads were good.  

My pizzas have been mediocre lately so it was nice to have good bread to eat.

1st pic is the crumb shot from same day dough
others are from the overnight loaf.  

Michael, I think you will like either the IDY starter or the hybrid starter.   You can get great crumb structure and some flavor without any of the sourness.   The crumb was fantastic, soft, moist, and milky.  The crust shattered.  The bottom crust was bit thick though.

Chau
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 03:31:50 PM by Jackie Tran »

Pizza01

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2011, 12:12:45 PM »
look great chau. what was the hydration ratio ?
i am sure i going to love it. and if i get bread half from the result you gained i will be more then satisfied.
what a great brumb. i am guessing that you use littel bit idy, let say 0.1% ? or i am wrong?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2011, 03:30:03 PM »
Michael, the flour used is a HG flour that is bleached and bromated.   HG flours tend to soak up quite a bit more water than a typically BF.   The hydration ratio is 82% plus 20% starter (that is 20% of the weight of flour).   My starter is 50/50 AP flour and water.   If you recalculate the starter hydration into the dough hydration, the final hydration comes to 83.5%, so i would say about 84% HR for this bread.

You are both wrong and right in guessing that I used IDY for this bread.  :-D  No I did not add any additional IDY to make the bread.   All the yeast is provided by the HYBRID starter.   If you recall, I made this starter using IDY and a spoon of Ischia starter.   So the bread does have IDY in it from the use of the hybrid starter but none extra was added.   

Chau

Pizza01

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2011, 04:22:46 PM »
pshhhh for young starters thats realy amazing ovenspring without additionel idy into it.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2011, 04:33:42 PM »
pshhhh for young starters thats realy amazing ovenspring without additionel idy into it.

Michael, as I mentioned earlier, the majority of the yeast in the HYBRID starter is IDY.  Adding an additional small amount of IDY won't likely improve ovenspring but will slightly speed up the fermentation.  Ovenspring is caused by many factors not just the use of a starter, whether young or old.   Peter made a nice list of many of the variables affecting oven spring here.  Reply #515

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104559/topicseen.html#msg104559

I would also add to that list, environmental factors specifically altitude.  

Chau
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 07:40:57 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2011, 07:38:06 PM »
I would also add to that list, environmental factors specifically altitude.  

chau,

You are right. I missed that one. So, I went back to my post and added it.

Thanks.

Peter


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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2011, 11:42:42 PM »
Chau,

Nice looking crumb.

Was that done with a contaminated starter? If so, a contaminated starter is a health risk, just keep that in mind!

In your contamination experiment, have you had any results of severe contamination meaning bad smell, a dark brown or even pink, reddish color? Did your starters exhibit any foul, old or other strange odors?

If they did, I suggest you discard all of it and start fresh.


EDIT: I forgot to mention that IF your starters did show those signs, then you succeed with your experiment.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 11:46:20 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2011, 01:01:55 AM »
Chau,

Nice looking crumb.

Was that done with a contaminated starter? If so, a contaminated starter is a health risk, just keep that in mind!

In your contamination experiment, have you had any results of severe contamination meaning bad smell, a dark brown or even pink, reddish color? Did your starters exhibit any foul, old or other strange odors?

If they did, I suggest you discard all of it and start fresh.


EDIT: I forgot to mention that IF your starters did show those signs, then you succeed with your experiment.

Mike, I think I may have misled you with the term "contaminated".  The hybrid starter is NOT contaminated with mold, fungus, or anything funky like that.  It is just a regular healthy starter that I am using.  I don't think anyone with as much common sense as myself would use a discolored or foul smelling starter, at least I hope not.  The purpose of this experiment was to see if I could contaminate one starter with another starter.   To see if one strain of yeast will overtake the other if introduced into the same medium.  If you read back from post one, you'll see that I mixed in some ischia starter into an IDY starter to see if it would either take over the starter or get diluted out over time.   The idea is that because an IDY starter (or poolish, really the same thing) is flavorless, if the ischia overtakes it, the IDY starter would become increasing strong in flavor.  If the IDY yeast overtakes the ischia, then the ischia flavors will eventually become diluted out.   And from the results I am getting I would say that I have  created a Hybrid (IDY/ischia) starter whereby both strains are coexisting in harmony.  I don't fully understand the science behind it, but I can report what I am tasting in the raw starters and resulting test breads.

The premise of the experiment was to test the theory that local yeast strains (from flour or air) will overcome all starters eventually and that it is impossible to keep distinct and separate strains of yeast side by side.  As of now, I don't buy into this theory.....at least not yet.

Chau
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 01:22:06 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2011, 11:58:41 PM »
Chau,

Thanks for your reply and explanation what you're trying to do with your experiment.

First off, the term 'contaminating' is indeed misleading. You haven't misled me per se, but potentially other members, especially those who are not familiar with starters, sponges, poolishes, etc.

What you have done in your experiment would probably qualify for the term of ďFusionĒ not ďContaminationĒ. 

Contamination is explained as:

1
a : to soil, stain, corrupt, or infect by contact or association <bacteria contaminated the wound> b : to make inferior or impure by admixture <iron contaminated with phosphorus>
2
: to make unfit for use by the introduction of unwholesome or undesirable elements

contaminate, taint, pollute, defile
mean to make impure or unclean. contaminate implies intrusion of or contact with dirt or foulness from an outside source <water contaminated by industrial wastes>. taint stresses the loss of purity or cleanliness that follows contamination <tainted meat> . pollute, sometimes interchangeable with contaminate, distinctively may imply that the process which begins with contamination is complete and that what was pure or clean has been made foul, poisoned, or filthy <the polluted waters of the river>. defile implies befouling of what could or should have been kept clean and pure or held sacred and commonly suggests violation or desecration 

You mentioned...

Quote
I started out by making a commercially yeasted (IDY) starter. I made a poolish with 50/50 water and AP flour with a bit of IDY. I then let it become active within 6-8 hours, dumped out half and fed it with 50/50 water/AP flour. I did this several times until I got an active starter after several hours of feeding. I tasted the IDY starter at it's peak and it had ZERO flavor. No hint of any sourness whatsoever.

No starter should contain any commercial yeast to begin with, whatsoever. But you said you made a poolish. 

A starter is only made from flour and water. A poolish is basically the french equivalent of a sponge, not a starter. It's wet with an equal amount of water and flour and usually contains a small amount of commercial yeast.

A starter is a mix of wild yeast, flour, water and bacteria and is fed on a regular basis. I'm saying this just to clarify for the members who commented on your experiment as to not confuse them. Especially new members.

I hope that helps to explain your experiment a bit better for other members, including myself. I'm not trying to ride your derriere but I have been corrected numerous times if I got terms wrong, explained things the wrong way, etc... for the benefit of others, which I have always appreciated since I learned from the corrections myself.
Mike

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2011, 12:40:30 AM »
Thanks Mike, I do tend to be a bit lackadasical when it comes to terminology.  Yes it did start out as an IDY poolish but I continued feeding it and maintaining it as if it were a starter.   I wanted to differentiate it from a classical poolish that is made and used right away, so the term starter seem natural.  I didn't realize that a starter is exclusive to natural yeast only, but you are right.  Does it count as a starter now since it has a bit of ischia in it?  :P 

Which reminds me, I do need to crack the Suas book I just got more often. 

Chau

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2011, 01:05:55 AM »
Chau,

Thanks for your reply and explanation what you're trying to do with your experiment.

First off, the term 'contaminating' is indeed misleading.

Chau, I think most readers of this post have the brain action required to grasp the intent of the experiment.  Although some are held to a higher standard, I do not feel that this post warrants a direct quote from Mirriam Webster.  Your simple example is well recieved by us simple folks, so keep up the good work.   :-X
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2011, 10:15:28 AM »
Semantics has long been an issue with starters and preferments. Moreover, in some cases, the only distinction between a starter and a preferment might be the amount used. That was a line that was essentially drawn by pizzanapoletana (Marco) when he introduced the Neapolitan style with natural leavening to our members several years ago. I admittedly am a stickler for nomenclature and have become even more so as time has progressed. It's in my DNA but it also helps me keep things clear in my mind. Having been exposed to the writings of Professor Calvel and Didier Rosada has helped me a lot in this respect. But what is most important in my opinion is to state the ingredients in the dough recipe or experiment being conducted, their quantities, and how and when they are used. Usually I can translate that into something I can relate to and understand, and even manipulate, even if the nomenclature is incorrect or non-traditional. I am also content to remind our members from time to time when they misuse a classical term or procedure. To me, that is part of education of our members.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2011, 10:34:30 PM »
Chau, I think most readers of this post have the brain action required to grasp the intent of the experiment.  Although some are held to a higher standard, I do not feel that this post warrants a direct quote from Mirriam Webster.  Your simple example is well recieved by us simple folks, so keep up the good work.   :-X

JD,

As always I've read your contribution with great interest. To insinuate that my brain action is lacking was icing on the cake, so thanks for that. The personal insult is appreciated.

But allow me comment on my previous post for a second, if I may. First off, a guy like Chau, who's come a long way with his pizza making and who's great-looking pizze and enthusiasm has landed him an interview spot on Slice, who gives advice to other members on their pizza endeavors should be familiar with certain terminologies and semantics. Especially when you have guys like Michael from Israel participating.

Given the vast and diverse membership on here, with people taking part from all over the world, I believe it is important to use the correct terms as to avoid confusion. Perhaps you should get a little brain action going there for yourself, buddy, and think just a tad before mouthing off in the manner you did.

And speaking of lower standards, I'm sorry to say that yours already show.

Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2011, 10:58:14 PM »
I would ask the members to confine their remarks to the subject matter at hand rather than to each other on a personal level.

Peter


 

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