Author Topic: Dough or Glop?  (Read 3114 times)

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Offline dmaxdmax

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Dough or Glop?
« on: January 26, 2011, 11:58:41 PM »
I made Peter Reinhart's Neo-Neapolitan stretch-and-fold dough today and somehow must have messed up the measurements.  Maybe my scale needs a new battery or wigged out with a larger than normal batch (48 oz flour) but I've got a very wet, slack product.  The bulk rise between folds would start in a tall lump, end up more like a pitcher's mound and by the time I put it in oiled containers it filled them almost like pudding.  It's kind of lumpy.  My flour (a new bread flour from Costco - I can't recall the name but will check) was quite cold and gave me a final dough temp of 63 deg.

In hindsight I should have added flour while mixing but my noob brain kept telling itself that I'd used the recipe several times with good results so why mess with it.  How can I make the most of this?  Will an extra long rise in the fridge give it a chance to form extra gluten?  Should I plan on shaping it as thin as possible assuming it will spread anyway?  Should I combine them in a sheet pan and call it focaccia?  I'm interested to see how much they rise overnight.  My electric oven goes to 500.

The amts:
5 1/4 cups (24 ounces by weight) unbleached bread flour
2 teaspoons (0.5 oz.) kosher salt
1 1/4 teaspoons (0.14 oz.) instant yeast (or 1 1/2 teaspoons active dry yeast dissolved in the water)
2 tablespoons (1 oz.) olive oil
1 tablespoons (1/2 oz.) sugar or honey
2 1/4 cups (18 oz.) room temperature water

Thanks for the grey cells!
Dave
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2011, 12:09:40 AM »
your recipe is at 75% hydration.  i suggest dropping down to 13-14oz of water
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2011, 08:18:55 AM »
It didn't rise much, if at all, overnight.  I gave it frostbite, didn't I?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2011, 10:26:58 AM »
Dave,

As best I can tell, you used the Reinhart Neo-Neapolitan dough formulation given at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/92-classic-pizza-dough-neo-neapolitan-style.html. That formulation embodies four different versions because of the two yeast and sugar/honey options. Can you tell me which set of ingredients you used? Also, did you do all the required stretch and folds and did you use any bench flour as part of the stretch and folds? Also, how did you determine that the dough hadn't risen? Sometimes it is very hard to tell with a very high hydration dough because of its tendency to spread and slump.

Peter

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2011, 11:24:45 AM »
Mr. Zaa,

I used .14 instant yeast w/sugar and oil.  I did the requisite stretch and folds with one more thrown in for good measure since it didn't seem to be coming together.  I used lightly oiled hands and surface without any bench flour.  This process has worked for me over the last couple of weeks.

After a couple of hours in the fridge it didn't seem to be moving (1qt plastic containers) so I marked the dough line with a sharpie.  12 hours later it was 1/8" higher.

Dave
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2011, 12:13:47 PM »
Dave,

Did you use sugar or honey, and which brand of Kosher salt did you use (e.g., Morton's or Diamond Crystal)? I'd like to convert the recipe to baker's percent format to get a better idea as to what is happening.

Peter

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2011, 01:57:07 PM »
Peter,

The flour is ConAgra Harvest Bread Flour -- enriched, bleached -- "perfect for bread machines".  It's my first time using it. At $13 for 50# I had to give it a shot.

I used sugar and Morton's by weight.

Update: while the refrigerated dough has crept up to 1/4" rise, there was some that came to sit at room temp this morning and has grown ~50%.  (it was put out by accident and I discovered it around 1).  14 hours cold + 5 hours room temp.  It's sticky- a dry finger pulls away w/a baby pea-sized clump.  It's now back in the fridge.

Thanks again
Dave
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2011, 03:59:20 PM »
Dave,

For the convenience of our members who might want to try the latest Reinhart Neo-Neapolitan dough recipe, I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with several variations based on the use of IDY, ADY, sugar and honey. For the salt, I used the Morton's Kosher salt. The dough formulation that I came up with for your situation is the first one listed below.

Reinhart Neo-Neapolitan Dough Formulation with IDY and Sugar
ConAgra Harvest Bread Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
IDY (0.55339%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.41094%):
Olive Oil (3.96825%):
Sugar (1.75781%):
Total (182.69039%):
680.4 g  |  24 oz | 1.5 lbs
510.3 g  |  18 oz | 1.12 lbs
3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
1243.03 g | 43.85 oz | 2.74 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; also, because of the use of the oil, the water should be reduced (I suggest a hydration of 71.03%); no bowl residue compensation

Reinhart Neo-Neapolitan Dough Formulation with ADY and Sugar
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
ADY (0.83331%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.41094%):
Olive Oil (3.96825%):
Sugar (1.75781%):
Total (182.97031%):
680.4 g  |  24 oz | 1.5 lbs
510.3 g  |  18 oz | 1.12 lbs
5.67 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
1244.93 g | 43.91 oz | 2.74 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; also, because of the use of the oil, the water should be reduced (I suggest a hydration of 71.03%); no bowl residue compensation

Reinhart Neo-Neapolitan Dough Formulation with IDY and Honey
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
IDY (0.55339%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.41094%):
Olive Oil (3.96825%):
Honey (3.08333%):
Total (184.01591%):
680.4 g  |  24 oz | 1.5 lbs
510.3 g  |  18 oz | 1.13 lbs
3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
20.98 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
1252.04 g | 44.16 oz | 2.76 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; also, because of the use of the oil and honey, the water should be reduced (I suggest a hydration of 70.25%); no bowl residue compensation

Reinhart Neo-Neapolitan Dough Formulation with ADY and Honey
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
ADY (0.83331%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.41094%):
Olive Oil (3.96825%):
Honey (3.08333%):
Total (184.29583%):
680.4 g  |  24 oz | 1.5 lbs
510.3 g  |  18 oz | 1.13 lbs
5.67 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
20.98 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
1253.95 g | 44.23 oz | 2.76 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; also, because of the use of the oil and honey, the water should be reduced (I suggest a hydration of 70.25%); no bowl residue compensation

As you can see from the above, all of the dough formulations, including the one you used, produce dough weights that are quite similar. In fact, my numbers show a final dough weight in each case that is more than the 40-ounce dough weight that the Reinhart recipe states, and closer to what you got. It's hard to tell but I suppose it is possible that there were dough losses during the preparation of the dough that led to the 40-ounce figure. You will also note that the Reinhart instructions for the above dough formulations say to reduce the amount of water in the event that oil and/or honey are used. He does not say how much, so I have given my suggested hydration values to use, which I arrived at by subtracting the amount of oil (by percent) from the formula hydration (75%) and, if honey is used, by also subtracting the amount of water in honey (17%) from the formula hydration value. If the oil and/or honey are omitted (Peter Reinhart says they are optional ingredients), the rest of the numbers in the above tables do not change. However, the total dough weights will go down a bit to reflect the omission of those ingredients.

Also, I read that the ConAgra Harvest Bread flour that you used is the same as the ConAgra Magnifico Special flour. If that is so, according to the document at http://www.conagramills.com/media/ConAgraMillsBrochure.pdf, that flour appears to have a protein content of around 13% (the third set of numbers on page 13). I don't see any reason why that flour wouldn't work in the recipe you used.

At this point, you may want to make the best of your situation and try to get the dough in a manageable state, using modest amounts of bench flour if necessary. You might also find that you may have to use parchment paper if the final dough balls remain too wet or damp to use a peel to load the pizzas into your oven.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

Edit (2/19/11): Revised the Reinhart dough formulations and accompanying comments to more accurately reflect the dough formulations and to recite recommended adjusted hydration values in the event oil and/or honey are used (both are considered optional).




« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 03:58:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2011, 05:06:22 PM »
Hmmmmm, this looks really close to my "go-to" recipe in my home setting :)

My hydration was a lot lower at 66% and my IDY was .25% but that was for adjusting ferment times....salt, oil and sugar %s are damn near dead on  :chef:

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2011, 05:12:05 PM »
Peter, you are indeed the man!

What's your best guess as to how many days it should have before baking?  Is that also the right time to freeze?

Dave
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2011, 05:39:06 PM »
What's your best guess as to how many days it should have before baking?  Is that also the right time to freeze?

Dave,

According to the instructions given at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/92-classic-pizza-dough-neo-neapolitan-style.html, the dough is supposed to be able to make it out to three days of cold fermentation. Once the bulk dough is divided into five dough balls, the dough balls that you don't plan to use can be frozen. The instructions seem to say that the dough balls that are not to be used can be frozen after the 90-minute proof at room temperature, but I suspect that you can freeze them after division and rounding.

Peter

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2011, 06:32:17 PM »
Thanks, Peter -

I didn't know if there was a rule of thumb for dough that may be over-hydrated.  Since they went in Wed evening I'll bake them Saturday and report back.

Dave
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2011, 09:11:44 PM »
Dave
I've made this dough many, many times....the only thing I do different is that I scale it and ball it right after the folds....which is neither here no there.  I have found this dough bakes best AFTER 3 or 4 days...and up to 8 days. You can do what you want...but what I would recommend, is that on the day you want to bake, lightly oil your hands, and ball your dough (it will be easier to do the longer it is in the fridge), and place your dough ball on a lightly oiled plate to set out a couple hours.  Then place your dough ball in flour, turn it over and flour the other side....and then simply press out your dough to desired size....that should be all the flour you need, just enough that it won't stick to the surface you are working on......if you measured your ingredients correctly, you should have an amazing pizza....Good Luck!
John

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2011, 10:52:09 PM »
John, I just put it together: Is this the dough you talk about in another thread regarding poolish?  If so, I'm excited since those pictures are amazing.  Even without poolish you've given me hope.

I formed the balls right after folding because I didn't have enough room for a big container but can always make space for several small ones.  Thanks so much for the flouring on a plate technique - it would not have occurred to me.

I'll bake for our usual Sunday pizza night and report back.

Dave
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2011, 03:17:14 PM »
At 4 days this was a major disappointment.  Still very slack and little flavor but huge oven spring.

At 7 days it was very good.  Very slack but had flavor.  Less spring but our oven was re-calibrated (messed up) so the stone didn't get hot enough.

I froze the remaining 2 balls though I'm curious to know how they would have been at 9 days.

I'll revisit this dough but I'm looking for a NY or Neo-N that works best with a 3 day rise.  I can't plan 7-10 days ahead!

Thanks for everyone's help!
Dave
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Dough or Glop?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2011, 11:48:04 PM »
Follow up: I took an Artisan Bread Everyday class with Peter R. yesterday and asked him about this. He was surprised and suggested I add an extra minute or 2 of initial mixing plus an extra stretch and fold.

Great class BTW.  Came home with a loaf of French bread, a loaf of Challah, sticky buns and a killer chocolate babka.  Plus a bag of lean dough and one of challah dough for future baking. 

Dave
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