Author Topic: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza  (Read 2208 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eiram21

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 113
Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« on: January 28, 2011, 09:29:42 AM »
Hi All,
Can  someone direct me to information on the benefits of using sugar or oil in the NY style dough? Frankly, I've sometimes used them, sometimes  not, and cannot recall any dramatic differences. I'm wondering how they would affect cook time and oven spring?

Many thanks,
Eiram
Marie


Offline msheetrit

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 711
  • Age: 34
  • Location: israel
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 10:17:37 AM »
good question. i am also interested to get professional answer.
michael

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3060
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2011, 10:32:52 AM »
this is my take on it.

sugar:   promotes faster browning, adds flavor, softens crumb structure slightly.    Beware of adding too much or dough will brown too fast and a sweet flavor in pizza dough is for sissies.   

oil:  adds flavor, softens crumb structure by retaining moisture in dough, promotes a more cake like or for dryer doughs a biscuit like texture, enhances dough extensibility when stretching.   You can actually add quite a bit without negative effects other than the cake/biscuit like texture which some don't mind.     

Offline eiram21

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 113
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 11:14:59 AM »
Thanks, Scott.  Your answer makes a lot of sense, and I'm now less hesitant to use oil but still a little hesitant to use the sugar. I'm wondering if it may increase the odds of getting a bread-like crust?

To take this a step further, I love using a cold fermentation process, 1 day or more. Does anyone know if the use of oil/sugar impacts cold fermentation or is they are unrelated for the most part?

Thanks!
Marie

Offline msheetrit

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 711
  • Age: 34
  • Location: israel
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 11:19:20 AM »
i can say when i use sugar eiram it add more color to crust and bottem, last time i double the amount of sugar and its clearly added more color maybe too much color. 1% sugar is the amount i will put next time.

about the olive oil i am not sure.
michael

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6960
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 11:23:24 AM »
To take this a step further, I love using a cold fermentation process, 1 day or more. Does anyone know if the use of oil/sugar impacts cold fermentation or is they are unrelated for the most part?

Thanks!

In my experience, cold fermented dough especially when made with starters can toughen up the gluten matrix and give a more dry and tough crumb.  However, if I add 2% oil to the mix, it balances it out very nicely. 

Chau

Offline msheetrit

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 711
  • Age: 34
  • Location: israel
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 11:33:03 AM »
chau

do you think oil is needed or make diference in the flavor or realy add value to the dough in emergency dough ?

and another question that i have to ask, is there any other way to let the dough rise without spread olive oil on it and that it wont stick ?
michael

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6960
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2011, 12:30:01 PM »
chau

do you think oil is needed or make diference in the flavor or realy add value to the dough in emergency dough ?

and another question that i have to ask, is there any other way to let the dough rise without spread olive oil on it and that it wont stick ?

The first part of your questions is a bit subjective.  Better for one person isn't always better for another.  I myself can't taste the oil in the amounts that i have used, 1-2% of the flour weight.  I'm not sure if I would feel the same at higher amounts.  I have used higher amounts of oil in a deep dish pizza and that gives it a biscuit like oily texture and taste that is quite pleasing but the amount of oil is like 20-25% oil.   

If you are looking for flavor in a same day emergency dough, then you'll need to use a relatively high amount of starter.  20-50% starter or even more.   You can make a sourdough in 6-7 hours if you want using a starter.   Either that or make a better sauce and use better cheese.  ;D 

I think there is some value in using 1-2% oil in a same day dough when I'm using HG flour and 20-30% starter.  I think it balances out the acids in the starter well. 

Yes, you can proof rise dough without the use of oil.  I think most of the neapolitan crowd proofs dough up in trays using only a bit flour sprinkled on top.  Whether a dough is "sticky" or not has more to do with it's gluten development.  I have found that when the gluten is sufficiently developed for the hydration of the dough, it is tacky or slightly sticky but doesn't leave bits of dough in your hands or on the container.  Meaning when you handle the dough or pull it from the container, it clears the sides cleanly.   If you ball it then, and dust with a light amount of flour, it should not stick to the proofing bowl even without oil.   Having said that, I do like to wipe a light film of oil in my proofing bowl just for added protection against sticking. 

I use fairly wet doughs and when I turn the plastic proofing bowl over, the dough ballls fall out cleanly without any aid or wrestling of the dough.  It takes about 20-30 seconds for the ball to fall out.  I do dust the top of the proof ball with flour before turning the bowl over and letting gravity do it's work.

Hope that helps,
Chau
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:33:14 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline msheetrit

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 711
  • Age: 34
  • Location: israel
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2011, 01:28:15 PM »
yes it did  :)

thank you.
michael

Offline chickenparm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Kentucky-Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2011, 02:13:09 PM »
One thing you can do is try using oil outside the dough mix as well.For example,I precook my crust on a 16 inch round metal pan before I finish it/slide onto the pizza stone.I do this because I do not have a peel large enough to slide my pies straight onto the stone first.

I wipe liberally or spray olive oil onto the round pan and it aids in browning the crust a bit better.When I don't use any oil and just corn meal,the crust stays whiter and paler,especially on the bottom.

You can cook on the pan all the way or just use it as a temporary peel like I do...but using oil onto the crust outside seems to give it a nice color and flavor over not using anything.I sometimes brush some on the rim to give it color and added flavor.Just trial and experiment to see what you like.Some of my better NY style pies at home were made this way.




-Bill


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21164
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2011, 03:11:17 PM »
Can  someone direct me to information on the benefits of using sugar or oil in the NY style dough? Frankly, I've sometimes used them, sometimes  not, and cannot recall any dramatic differences. I'm wondering how they would affect cook time and oven spring?


Eiram,

If you read member ilpizzaiolo's (Ron Molinaro"s) post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384, you will see that the use of sugar and oil in a NY style dough, which is the premise of your post, really did not catch on until the invention and commercialization of the deck oven. But there are limitations, especially in the amount of sugar to use in a dough that is to be cold fermented and for what purpose. For example, Tom Lehmann's advises that sugar be used in the dough only if it is to be cold fermented for more than about two or three days. The reason for that advice is because Tom knows that sugar in the dough for less than two or three days will not have been completely converted to simple sugars and may lead to excessive crust coloration, or even burning, through caramelization, when the pizza is baked on the surface of a hot deck oven stone. Once you get beyond a couple or few days, depending on the particular dough formulation and fermentation protocol, a good part of the sugar will have been converted to simple sugars and the yeast may be in need of more simple sugars to feed on (yeast cannot use sugar in its natural form, only in the form of simple sugars). So, adding about 1-2% sugar to a dough that is to ferment longer than two or three days is considered to be a commercially proper and acceptable thing to do. Of course, if one wants a sweeter crust, more than 1-2% can be used but so much as to invite excessive crust coloration.

The above aside, in a home environment, one can usually get away with using more sugar. Tom Lehmann himself has acknowledged that in a home setting using a typical oven and a typical pizza stone, the dough can tolerate more sugar. As an example, if you look at the dough recipe that Tom recommends that home pizza makers use, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7892.msg67686.html#msg67686, and particularly as I converted that recipe to baker's percent format at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7892.msg71897.html#msg71897, you will note that the sugar content is about 4.36%. In my standard home oven, such an amount of sugar would require that I monitor very closely the bake of the pizza and move it quickly off of the stone to a higher oven position once I see that the bottom crust is developing too much color.

On the matter of oil in the dough, Tom Lehmann once told me that the purpose of the oil in the NY style dough was for flavor. His basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation calls for only 1%. However, I have seen commercial NY style dough formulations that have been used at trade shows and training sessions (even sometimes by Tom Lehmann) that contain up to 3% oil. No doubt, there are pizza operators somewhere who use more oil (very few think in terms of baker's percents) but most commercial NY style dough formulations that I have seen in the literature do not tend to use more than about 3%. If you look at the NY style dough recipes I listed in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.msg110290.html#msg110290, you will see that the only recipe that uses more than 3% oil is Peter Reinhart's NY style dough recipe. However, I do not consider his NY style dough recipe to be representative on a true NY style, but rather closer to an American style because of its high sugar and high oil content. But that is my opinion that one can accept or reject.

Since I have written on the subject of oil and sugar in a pizza dough, you can read the role that sugar and oil play in (and on) pizza dough at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10219.msg89669/topicseen.html#msg89669, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7915.msg67914.html#msg67914, at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7301.msg63034/topicseen.html#msg63034 and at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,864.msg7819.html#msg7819.

Peter

Offline msheetrit

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 711
  • Age: 34
  • Location: israel
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2011, 04:06:24 PM »
peter thank you very for your detailed answer, it helped me a lot understanding meny things.
my last pizza i puted 3% sugar because i needed that to gain color i glad to hear from you that used in one of your pie 3% sugar also. although i plan to use less next time.
michael

Offline eiram21

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 113
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2011, 05:41:31 PM »
Thanks so much for all the additional information, Peter and Chau. I'll be sure to read through the links.

Funny, I thought that less sugar would be needed for longer fermentation periods because I thought the dough would risk too much. Didn't think of it from the angle that it would need more "food" to thrive.  :angel:
Marie

Offline chickenparm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Kentucky-Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2011, 08:36:43 PM »
Peter,
From your research,what type of oil is usually/typically in the dough?

I have heard of pizza places(not the chains,some mom and pop places in NY) using vegetable and/or corn/canola oil instead of Olive oil.Thats not gospel though,just something I heard over the years through people I spoke with.

For me,I always use Olive oil,but I did try canola oil once when I ran out of OO and it worked just fine at the time.
Thanks.
 :)
-Bill

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21164
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2011, 09:09:14 PM »
From your research,what type of oil is usually/typically in the dough?

Bill,

It varies all over the place. Some pizza operators, like Brian Spangler, for example, use only olive oil. That fits because he is running a quality operation. Some pizza operators use extra virgin olive oil but it is expensive and not often used as a result. Tom Lehmann thinks that extra virgin olive oil is wasted in pizza dough. However, there is a less expensive form of olive oil called pomace oil that some operators use simply because they like olive oil and want to use it in some form. I once suggested pomace oil to a pizza operator who was using a more expensive olive oil and he reported back to me that he couldn't taste any difference when he made the switch. So, he went with the pomace oil. Pizza operators who want to keep costs down, or they are more interested in profits than quality, will go to soybean oil, which is sold as "vegetable oil" in the supermarkets. That is the cheapest oil available from foodservice companies. Others blend olive oil and some other oil, like canola oil or soybean oil. A typical blend might be 80% canola oil and 20% olive oil (such as pomace oil). It is also common for pizza operators to use a good quality oil in the dough and a cheap oil, like soybean oil, to wipe the finished dough balls. Some will use a good quality olive oil to brush the rims of baked pizzas. That is another, less expensive way to impart the nice flavor of olive oil to the crust.

Peter

Offline chickenparm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Kentucky-Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: Sugar and oil in NY style pizza
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2011, 12:29:41 AM »
Peter,
Thanks for the informative reply as always.
 :)

-Bill


 

pizzapan