Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 144470 times)

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Offline Peteg

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #280 on: April 07, 2006, 10:37:42 PM »
Hey Guys, I just thought I would introduce myself now that I've got a digital camera to take pictures with.  This is the pie that I baked tonight with pieguy's 48 hour dough.  After taking this dough out after the 48th hour, I put it back in the fridge for another three days for a total of 5 days.  I was extremely happy with the texture.  Crunchy on the outside with good voids and a fairly chewy inside.  The only thing that I would change is to possibly add an autolyse into the next batch of dough.  This dough was very manageable even after tossing it very thin.  However, an autolyse always seems to make the dough just a little bit more manageable.  I'll try that this week and report back.  This last batch was done with 100% KABF but I just got 40 pounds of Caputo in so I'll be trying a Caputo batch tomorrow.  As far as the details go, I pretty much followed pieguy's recipe with the exception of the hydration.  As I can get my oven to about 850/650 I changed the hydration to 62%.  Hope this helps!  Pete


Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #281 on: July 04, 2006, 11:40:54 AM »
I ate at A16 last week and posted a review in the review forum.  While at the restaurant I mentioned this thread and the interest in recreating A16 pizza to the chef Nate Appleman. He noted that if people have questions, they are welcome to email him.  His email address is available at http://www.a16sf.com/AboutUs.html.

Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #282 on: August 02, 2006, 11:15:14 PM »
I took a stab at an A16 style pizza, following Pete's formulation at Reply #250 in this thread.  I used his suggested #3 mixing order using used Caputo flour.  The dough rose over night at room temperature and then was in the fridge for about 40 hours.  I punched the dough down once after the overnight room temp. rise.  The dough was pretty sticky at the punch down and when forming the skin.

I only stretched the dough to about 11-12 inches and baked it for about 8 minutes in a 550 degree oven that had preheated for about an hour.  The pizza was dressed with Grande moz., LaValle tomato sauce, sausage and fresh oregano and basil.  Tasted very good, the crust had a different, almost lighter flavor than the NY style pizza I aslo made that night.  Here are a couple of pics.   

Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #283 on: August 02, 2006, 11:20:31 PM »
Tonight I'm trying Duckjob's A16 formulation at Reply #74.  I used the same mixing technique that Pete suggested, (water and salt, then flour and IDY, and then oil) but I added a five minute rest after the water, salt, flour and IDY were mixed and then added the oil.  I also used slightly cooler water between 85 and 95 degrees.  The dough ball was smoother, less sticky and easier to handle than the earlier effort.  Here's a picture of the dough ball.  I'm going to let the dough rise over night at room temperature and then put 'em in to the fridge.  l'll post the baking results in a few days.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 11:22:41 PM by Wallman »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #284 on: August 02, 2006, 11:44:25 PM »
Wally,

I still remember good ol' Pizza #3, so your photo brought back fond memories. I used a different bake protocol than you did so I am glad to see that your standard procedure worked out well. Once the weather turns cooler I may want to repeat the recipe using my mini-oven which worked out well for the recent DiFara clone doughs I made.

Peter

Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #285 on: August 03, 2006, 12:14:12 AM »
I did create the "mini-oven" you mentioned by simply placing tiles on the bottom rack and on the top rack, 2 rows above, but I didn't use the broiler.  I may try that for this weekend's pizzas.  It's so hot here in the DC area that cooking inside with a hot oven is more comfortable than being outside!  The heat has cut down on my bbq efforts, but I may try my Weber gas grill again, but I still need to figure out how to retain some heat above the pizza. I love my Weber, but the lid just isn't high enough to create a mini-oven as others have tried.

Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #286 on: August 14, 2006, 11:10:25 PM »
Sort of a flop with my A16 attempt.

Duckjob's formulation looked pretty good at the dough ball stage (1st pic) after being in the fridge two days. But, I had a very difficult time shaping the dough and getting the skins formed. Unfortunately, the pizza stuck on the peel and didn't get into the oven very cleanly.  An example of the mangled pie is in pic 2. Tasted pretty good, but the crust was light and not much char or oven spring.  The third pic shows an Eggplant pizza from a recipe in American Pie.  Again, the crust was pretty light as the oven temp had dropped after I tried to scrape off the burned pieces of the earlier pizza.  At least I didn't trash the pizza getting in and out of the oven.  The eggplant puree, tomato and Parmesan cheese topping was different and had a very light flavor. The leftover eggplant puree (smoke-roasted eggplant, olive oil, lemon juice and salt) made an excellent dip.

It's clear I need to keep practicing my dough shaping -- I think I'll work with NY style doughs for a bit as they are a little easier to handle.

Offline scott r

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #287 on: August 15, 2006, 02:57:31 AM »
Wallman, don't fear going a little dryer with your caputo based doughs, or maybe also fermenting for less time than you did.

It is hard to say if your dough was overfermented, but it is summer.  Did you temperature adjust your water to end up with a 75ish degree dough after mixing?

Don't give up on the caputo yet.  I have found that a dryer dough works better for caputo based doughs in lower temp ovens, and certainly for ease of shaping/unloading.  You will probably need to add a fat to help retain some of the moisture because of you longer slower bake.

Also, You are going to need more than a standard home oven to get much color out of a caputo based dough.

Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #288 on: August 17, 2006, 10:11:46 PM »
Thanks for the advice Scott. My dough was closer to 80 when I finished mixing. I will try a little lower hydration and cooler water. It is very warm and humid here in VA right and this might help.  I have added about 1% oil to the dough.

Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #289 on: August 20, 2006, 07:50:39 PM »
Another attempt at an A16 style Neopolitan pizza. And, based on the advice of Scott and Varasano, some success.

I followed the general A16 recipe from above formulated to make a 14 inch pie, here are the baker's percents/weigts (in oz.) from the Lehmann calculator:
Flour 100% 9.66
Water 55% 5.32
Oil 1.7% .16
Salt 2.3% .22
IDY .29% .03

Following Scott's advice I used a lower hydration and I followed Varasanos mixing advice -- added water (room temp approx 88F), 3/4 of the flour, IDY, kosher salt, and oil and mixed. Then let the batter-like dough rest for 30 minutes.  Then added rest of flour slowly for an addition 10 minutes of kneading. Let the dough rest for 20 minutes at room temp.  Then into the fridge for 41.5 hours.

After the dough warmed up on the counter for 2 hours, I formed the pie.  The dough was smooth and easy to form. Much easier to stretch than last week's effort.  The pizza was dressed in the  Pizza Margherita style with fresh tomatoes, buffalo mozarella, basil and a bit of olive oil on the rim.  I baked it on tiles on the bottom rack of a 550 oven for just over 6 minutes. I then moved the pizza to a higher rack and put the broiler on for about a minute.  The results were pleasing.  Good browning, very nice flavor.  The crust bottom was a little crisp, but not too bad. All in all, I was very pleased. I think the autolyse really helped.


Offline scott r

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #290 on: August 21, 2006, 03:19:32 PM »
Wallman, it looks like you did everything right!  You should definitely be proud of that accomplishment.  I am almost positive that what you have there now, or a similar pie with a slightly shorter stay in your oven, is exactly what you should expect from Caputo at 550.  Now that you have your methods on the right track I would love to see you bake up a batch using that exact same recipe, but with king arthur bread, or general mills full strength flour instead.  I think you will be really happy with those results.  I know the Caputo is tempting because it is so exotic, but in my experience nothing can come close to the quality of pizza made with good American pizza flours if you are baking in a normal 550 degree home oven.

once you do that the next step to pizza bliss is a starter culture. 

also, eventually you should try blending your Caputo and American flours.

as you get better and better at making pies, try relying only on feel to know when your dough has enough water in it.  It's best to stay to strict recipes and a scale for everything else, though.


« Last Edit: August 21, 2006, 03:21:36 PM by scott r »

Offline varasano

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #291 on: August 21, 2006, 03:39:36 PM »
Ditto to everything scott said.  It looks good.

One quick thing - I always thnk of room temp as 75 not 88.

Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #292 on: August 22, 2006, 09:49:46 AM »
Scott, thanks for the compliments :D.

I did a Lehmann style pizza the same night using KASL and a traditional autolyse, details are here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.480.html at post #481.  I do plan to experiment using the basic Lehmann recipe and various lenghs of autolyse.  All I know is both efforts resulted in dough that was easier to work with.

My wife is partial to the pizza with the KASL flour so I tend to make more of those pies.  I have about 10 lbs left from my 50 lb bag of KASL, so my I also plan to to compare the KASL with the All-Trumps I picked up from Costco last week.  Since Costco stocks it regularly, I'm hoping I can't notice any difference!

Varasano, you live in Atlanta and consider 75 room temp?  :-D  Actually, you're right that is a little warm, but I was trying to bring the temp down from the 100 F that Pieguy recommended in his original post.  I'm not sure the water temp made a huge difference since the Lehmann dough used very cool water, but since it was a different recipe, mixing technique etc., it's hard to compare.

Offline gschwim

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #293 on: September 03, 2006, 05:51:50 AM »
How, exactly, does one make the "caputo starter" mentioned in many of this thread's replies?  Also, for the starter, can I substitute Pete's 85/15 Bell Aria-KA bread flour mix for the Caputo?

Thanks.

Gene

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #294 on: September 03, 2006, 09:27:21 AM »
Gene,

When I made my Caputo natural starter, I used just Caputo flour and bottled water and wild Texas yeast. I use mainly Caputo flour for maintenance purposes, but I don't think it really matters what flour you use to keep the starter going once it is established, so long as the flour (preferably white) is not bleached or bromated. So, I don't see any reason why you can't use the combination you mentioned or even the Bel Aria alone if you want to stay "Italian" and don't have any Caputo flour. The water should not be chlorinated. Most members who use natural starters seem to prefer the starters available from sourdo.com, including the Ischia and Camaldoli starters because they are proven starters with proven characteristics. My Texas-bred Caputo starter turned out fine, but that isn't always the case.

Peter

Offline gschwim

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #295 on: September 10, 2006, 02:20:15 PM »
Pete,

Thanks for the advice.  Hopefully, my attempt will not be a "non-starter."

Somewhere on this thread or another thread, you said you made one of your best pizzas from a combination of Bel Aria and, I think, KA bread flour.  Now that I want to try the recipe, I can't find it.  Can you provide a link?  Thanks.

Gene

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #296 on: September 10, 2006, 02:44:08 PM »
Gene,

It's Reply 44 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9367.html#msg9367. Please note that the fermentation times were based on fairly low room temperatures. The times would be shorter using current room temperature levels, at least in Texas.

Peter

Offline gschwim

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #297 on: September 10, 2006, 02:54:11 PM »
Pete,

I was planning to divide the dough into balls, put them in the fridge overnight and then freeze most of them.  Or perhaps I should let the dough rise for 2 hours before dividing?

Regarding your Reply #44, would you know the baker's percent?  Do you think it would be okay to use all IDY and no starter?  If so, how much IDY would I use?  Also, you've been mentioning dairy whey.  What do you think of my adding some to the Reply #44 recipe?

Gene
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 03:04:54 PM by gschwim »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #298 on: September 10, 2006, 03:05:49 PM »
Gene,

I am personally not a big fan of freezing pizza dough, although I do know that Bill/SFNM does freeze his doughs made using only 00 flour, water, salt and natural preferment. I just don't know how long they are frozen or at what stage in the entire process. If you use the formulation I linked you to, you are unlikely to get the same results. But I could be wrong on this since I have never done it. Whatever way you go, I hope you will report on your results.

Peter

Offline gschwim

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #299 on: September 10, 2006, 03:32:46 PM »
Pete,

I'm hesitant to report too much on my results because I'm still so much of a beginner that if something turns out badly, I can't be sure whether it's the recipe is wrong, or my execution.  I suppose, for now, I'll report only on the experiments that come out well (and take full credit for the results...   :-D ).  So...

... regarding freezing dough, I so far have not noticed any problems, but again, that could be me.  Usually, I move the dough ball from the freezer to the refrigerator and let it sit there overnight.  Then the next day, I let it sit on the counter, at room temperature, for a couple of hours. From my point of view, based on Peter Reinhart's recipe and his endorsement of a short initial rise at room temperature, followed by an overnight refrigerator rise, I am not freezing a finished dough, but merely delaying the second, refrigerator-rise step.  Basiclly, it's just more convenient for me to make a large batch of dough on say, Sunday, and then use them up over several days rather than make fresh dough.