Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 142164 times)

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Offline pieguy

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2005, 01:07:33 PM »
The 260 g dough balls will make a 13 inch pizza. As far as hydrating the IDY, that is standard practice for IDY. Bulk IDY packages usually indicate something to the effect of: 33% IDY equals 100% cake yeast, and make up the 66% difference in weight with water; and hydrate the IDY for at least 15 minutes before using. Otherwise the yeast activity is very slow to develop.

With respect to the quantity of yeast, there are probably a few factors. In Naples - I think - pizza makers mix their dough either the night before or the same day and the proofing takes place entirely at room temperature. For a good portion of the year, Naples is hot. Smaller amounts of cake yeast (which I've found kicks in a bit faster than IDY) are probably sufficient to generate a rise and develop the dough. I know that when the weather is cold, they use much more yeast.

Other reasons for the quantities of yeast usually written for Neapolitan pizza may be cultural. To Neapolitans, the sine qua non of their pizza is the texture, specifically tenderness (not lightness). For flavor, Neapolitans are focused on the tomato and mozzarella (or just tomato and oregano, as the case may be), and thus the flavor of the crust on its own should be minimal. They don't like *any* yeasty, remotely sour, vaguely prominent bread flavors. Again, tenderness is the focus. Notice that on Margherita and Marinara pizzas in Naples, there is usually a single leaf of basil or a single sliver of garlic, which the customer will take off the pizza before eating. Neapolitans are very sensitive to what they consider extremes of flavor. American pizza afficionados in Naples are usually impressed with the flavors and freshness of the toppings but also frequently note that the dough (while perfectly tender) is somewhat...bland.

More yeast and longer, colder fermentation develops more flavor in the dough, and leaves enough yeast activity after 48 hours that the crust puffs nicely and has a good balance of (Neapolitan) tenderness and (American) flavor and crispness.

The recipe is mine, and I hope that it helps Friz make perfect pizza.


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2005, 02:12:17 PM »
Just few comments on the Neapolitan culture:

We like it tender and light. That is why the favorites pizzerias of the Neapolitans are Da Michele and Antica Costa, both using 20+ hours at room temperature (they use cellars in the summer with temperature at around 22 degree Celsius).

It is true that the pizza crust should not taste yeasty. But we also do not like the bread with yeasty flavor. We still prefer natural fermented dough. However this dough have a lactic acid taste (similar to mozzarella cheese) and not acetic acid taste like SF sourdough.

On the pizza side, a good fruity (the wheat taste) and moderately "lactic acid" taste is what we look for in a good pizza crust.

Females and children may put aside the garlic and basil (the basil in Naples is so strong and we use only 2-3 leaves not 1) but real Neapolitan still like strong taste. Remember that our second favorites sauce is an over-cooked 100% onion sauce... we are not sensitive to extreme flavor; I don't know who did you talk to, but my mum family, a noble, has a documented 500 years history in Naples
« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 08:06:55 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2005, 02:16:47 PM »
pieguy,

Thank you for your reply. I can now better see the logic to both the way you use the IDY and the amount of the IDY. I know that some bakers, especially those who used fresh yeast, still hydrate IDY but I assumed that it was out of habit more than anything else.

Just from your reply I can tell you have great expertise in Neapolitan doughs. I hope you will continue to enlighten and teach those of us who are still learning and trying to perfect our Neapolitan-style pizzas. Are you using your recipe in a professional sense? I see that it bears a lot of similarities, as well as some differences (mainly in the type of leavening used and the use of refrigeration), to one posted a while back by fellow member pizzanapoletana (Marco), also an expert on Neapolitan doughs and techniques. It was a modification of Marco's recipe that Friz has elected to use in his efforts to reverse-engineer the A16 dough.

One of the things I think Friz will be happy to read is that a single dough ball based on your recipe will produce a 13-inch pizza--exactly the size he is using for his experiments. This means that one only has to divide the weights of the ingredients used in your recipe by 11 (10.87, to be more exact) to get the amounts to use for a single 13-inch pizza. To spare Friz the effort, I have done the math, so the final single-pizza dough recipe is as set forth below. Except for the lightweight ingredients like salt, olive oil and IDY, I have specified the weights in ounces rather than volumes pending the results of Friz's efforts to find the best recipe. (For those who can't wait and want to try out the recipe, I will be happy to get my scale out and work out the corresponding volumes).

Pieguy's Single-Pizza Size Neapolitan Dough Recipe (13-inch)

100%, Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, 5.68 oz.
57%, Water (100 degrees F), 3.25 oz.
2.3%, Salt, 0.13 oz. (a bit more than 5/8 t.)
1.7%, Extra-virgin olive oil, 0.10 oz. (1/2 t.)
0.29%, IDY, 0.016 oz. (a bit less than 1/6 t.)
Total dough ball weight: 9.18 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 9.18/(3.14 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.069

Peter

« Last Edit: May 20, 2005, 06:54:35 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2005, 05:37:33 PM »
PieGuy,
First off, let me say that the reason I am a bit delayed in responding to your recent post is that I have been out of town on business for the past week and just getting back to my favorite forum today.  I cannot stress enough how much I appreciate your post.  While I would never ask you to reveal who you are, based on your feedback I know your connection to A16 is strong.  While I was at A16, the pizzaoilo told me about the 15 minute proof of water and IDY.  At that time, I had never heard of this technique and, as a result, didn't pay much attention to it.  I simply thought that he was suggesting that I proof the yeast like it was ADY.  Now I know that it had nothing to do with proofing ADY but it is indeed a critical part of the A16 dough making process.  I am so excited to try this recipe and technique!  I will be going directly home from work today, having dinner with my family, putting my kids to bed, and immediately preparing a batch of dough based on your feedback.

I just knew that there was something different about the A16 dough that I had never experienced before.  And I knew that it had to be something based on the mixing technique.  This, I believe, is the key factor in what makes the A16 "tender" as you say, not so much "light".  It's also good to learn of the use of olive oil in the dough, as I just wasn't sure about that either.  Of course, the other factor is the high oven heat, but that is our limitation as home pizza makers.

As Pete-zza stated and I concur, I hope you will continue to enlighten and teach those of us who are still learning and trying to perfect our Neapolitan-style pizzas.  Your post was so insightful and interesting - it was a real treat to read.  By the way, if you are in fact affiliated with A16, a good friend of mine and his wife will be visiting your restaurant for dinner this evening (Wednesday).  They should be on the reservation list in the name of "Farina".  They are on a business trip and I immediately directed them to A16 - they can't wait to try it. I also have several others who reside in SF who will be stopping by to experience what I consider to be the finest pizza in America today.  Thanks again and please stay in touch.
Friz
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 05:42:16 PM by friz78 »

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2005, 04:58:15 PM »
Pete,
Thanks for converting the pieguy's recipe to weighted measurements.  It made it much easier to proceed with this recipe.  Of course, I am so appreciative of pieguy providing this recipe and he has me so enthused that I couldn't wait to get to it.  I thought I would provide a little update on the current status of following pieguy's recipe...

Early this morning I prepared the dough according to pieguy's instructions.  I used pete-zza's conversion formula for measurements and multiplied it by four, as I wanted to make four dough balls and the recipe was too small to just make one dough ball.  I was particularly interested to see the effects of the 20 minute "IDY hydration".  After hydrating the IDY I added the dry ingredients and then added the olive oil near the end of the mixing process.  I mixed all the ingredients on low speed for about ten minutes.  The dough was not too wet nor too dry.  It seemed to produce a very "balanced" hydration.  It came off the hook quite easily and I hand kneaded it for about one minute and then placed it in a stainless steal bowl to rise.  I covered the bowl with plastic wrap and secured it with a rubber band.    I was especially interested to see if the dough would indeed "triple in size" as pieguy suggested and how long it would take to do so.  Interestingly, the dough rose to almost double in size very quickly.  After that, the rising process slowed down dramatically and I wasn't sure if it would ever reach triple size.  I was patient however, and sure enough, after about two hours and fifteen minutes the dough had risen to triple in size.  I then punched the dough down and folded it just as pieguy suggested.  Having made a recipe for four dough balls, I divided the dough ball into four parts, weighed each ball and then formed them into circles for refrigeration.  The weight of each dough ball was exactly the weight calculated by pete-zza.

The dough is now in the refrigerator for the 48 hour rise.  I will report back in the next few days as the preparation and baking process continues.  I can't wait to share the results!

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2005, 09:04:12 PM »
friz78,
I have been traveling so much lately I have been remiss in particpating in this thread. I will make up for lost ground however because I have just completed two dough balls and they are sitting on the counter custom made to friz78/pieguy/pete-zza's specifications for an A16 clone.

I can echo friz78's statements about the dough's sweet handling properties.  I can't wait to fire up the TEC and put the Caputo to the test. More to come...
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Offline duckjob

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2005, 09:13:32 PM »
My shipment from pennmac came today, so I now have caputo to experiment with. I'll be making this dough tommorrow morning. I'll report back with pics on sunday.  Friz, your pizzas look great by the way.

Brian

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2005, 07:18:00 PM »
So happy to hear that pft and duck are also embarking on the A16 experiment.  Or, at this point, the pieguy recipe.  One thing I wanted to mention to everyone who is trying this recipe - when I ate at A16, the pizzailo told me that he not only punches down the dough after it rises on the counter but he also does a punch down halfway(about) through the 48 hour refrigeration process. 

I checked on my dough this morning after about 24 hours and sure enough, I was able to punch it down because it had risen in the refrigerator.  It didn't rise alot, but I could sure hear the air release from the dough when I punched it down.  I'm not sure how much the punch down effects the end product in this case, but I thought I would let everyone know what I had learned while at A16.
Friz

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2005, 08:56:36 AM »
Friz78,
Last night I had intended to punch down the dough however my son's jr. high graduation threw me off my pizza game...This is a sickness. Here I was, watching my son take another step toward becoming a man and I was worried about punching down Friz78's A16 clone dough. Heaven help me. Fortunately my wife sternly warned me to keep my priorities in proper order and the tension passed. I ended up dancing to 50 cent with a bunch of 14 year olds instead of worrying about pie. Whew!

What I find intriguing about this collaboration is the fact that one might conclude pieguy's original mixing procedure and unique dough management process may result in a preferment like enhanced type crust. It appears that he has developed a series of steps to ensure more flavor to the end product which is exactly what a preferment attempts to produce. I wonder if pieguy could weigh in on this similarity.

Anyway, in my haste to "test" the formula I have deviated from the instructions which are scattered throughout this thread. It may behoove those who are trying this interesting formula to post a consolidated formula including all the suggested mixing, stretching, and dough management steps. It might result in a higher compliance level and better results.

In particular, the water I used for mixing was room temperature and not 100 degrees, I also used my standard mixing regimen for Pizza Sophia complete with autolyse. Finally, I formed the dough balls immediately after mixing. So I'm not sure how useful my results will be to the effort.

Nonetheless, I will post photographs of my result later this evening...
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 09:22:48 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2005, 06:58:09 AM »
Last night I finished making my first modified A16 clone and a Pizza Sophia. I will state upfront that I did not follow the A16 formula perfectly. That’s why I’ve referred to it as modified. The results on the whole were favorable. Since I have the most experience in making Caputo based Pizza Sophia’s, I offer the following comparative analysis. Keep in mind; this was my first A16 effort so I have no doubt my initial result can be improved through repetition which in my book is the mother of learning.

Having stated the above, I’m spoiled. No doubt about it. I should have loved the modified A16 clone. But I didn’t. I only “liked” it. Why? Easy question to answer, I’m certain because it did not contain the Varasano preferment to jack up the flavor into the stratosphere. I mean it. On second thought, I really mean it. Everything else about the pie was acceptable or better (based on the initial effort) except the crust flavor.

Speaking of the Varasano preferment, its humble origin is from commercial cake yeast.  Has it morphed so much over the years at Patsy’s Pizza as to render even a two day cold risen dough, like the A16, into the category of bland? Yes it can. It just did. I’m a little stunned. You don’t know how good you have it until it’s gone.

I haven’t had a home pie in months where the Varasano preferment wasn’t added. The second I bit into the A16 crust I wondered where the flavor went to. I knew the crust lacked the glorious signature flavor of the Varasano preferment immediately. I expected it to have a distinct flavor due to the long rise. It wasn’t a bad flavor. It just wasn’t noticeable. It was too polite and similar to commercial yeast which is to say it had little flavor if any. It simply wasn’t stupendous like the Varasano enhanced Sophia crust. I could sense a trace of added flavor but it was too muted. Like I said, I’m spoiled.

The modified A16 clone had a much larger rim due to my inability to stretch the dough with the same level of confidence as Sophia. The dough was more difficult to stretch and didn’t inspire me to try and get to 16” or so as a finished skin size. It ended up being closer to 12” which, for a 14 ounce dough ball is pretty small. The base of the pie was thicker as a result. Overall the dough was competent just not extraordinary. During stretching, it was not as uniform in its thickness as Sophia. I noticed several thin spots. Clearly my lack of familiarity with the formula didn’t help either. I couldn’t employ my normal Sophia stretching steps (due to dough softness) so maybe my impromptu stretching procedure was the root cause. The A16 dough was tough to stretch out without fear of tearing but the crust was tender as a result. The Sophia dough was a dream to work with. It could have stretched much larger than the 14” or so I stopped at. 

Char. A16 had it in spades. Here is where it shined brightly. I loved the “look” of the crust. It charred evenly. The crust charred a little better than Sophia. No doubt due to the addition of oil in the mixing process. Also, the crust was not as dry as Sophia. This was a big win around my house. I have been trying to solve the dry Caputo crust riddle for a while. Maybe a smaller skin size contributed as well. To find out, I stretched Pizza Sophia to about the same size as the A16 crust and sure enough Sophia responded with better performance. I did find it interesting that the A16 57% hydration crust was not as dry as a 60% Sophia. It all adds up to the A16 crust being tenderer.

I varied my normal process of slicing thin strips of cheese in favor of using chunks of mozzarella in an effort to visually portray a more Neapolitan pizza. It worked. The pies looked fabulous.  They were my most authentic Neapolitan looking pies to date. The modified A16 clone edged Sophia here as well. Now if I could just get its taste anywhere close to Sophia, we would be in business.

Overall, the A16 pie was a pleasant surprise and perhaps a better “first try” effort than my review may portray. It holds a wealth of promise which can only be uncovered over time. As I ate a couple of slices though, I couldn’t help but wonder if a preferment would be a more direct method to inject flavor into the crust instead of some of the recommended steps in the formula. My sense is the addition of a preferment would be complimentary to an already solid formula. Would this addition be considered a fundamental change to the formula? I don’t think so.

That will be my next tweak to the modified A16 formula. It has to be. I need to know. I have to know. I will find out.

I took two sets of photographs. The A16 pie is the Margherita. The Pizza Sophia was topped with Arugula.
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2005, 06:59:22 AM »
Pizza Sophia with arugula...
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Offline pieguy

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2005, 04:04:56 PM »
Some comments on the technique for the recipe I posted:

I mix the IDY and oil with the water and allow it to hydrate (rather than add the oil during the mixing, as Friz did). I don't know if this is crucial, since I've never done it any other way. It's strictly a matter of convenience, as the oil has no effect on the hydration of the yeast.

The punching down of the dough is not just a pro forma habit. I should have, however, further emphasized the "fold" step. A baker I know explained to me that a dough will develop a lot of strength during the fermentation process if it is folded as well as punched down. My process is to punch down the dough completely, then fold it in thirds (just like folding a standard piece of paper to fit into an envelope, aka a "bookfold") and finally flip it over so that the folds are on the bottom and the top is a smooth surface. Gluten that is developed during the mix relaxes as the proofing occurs, then through punching and folding those gluten strands are lengthened and stretched. I repeat this process a few times until the dough ceases rising visibly (usually after 8 hours). The end result is a dough that has the tender qualities of 00 flour but is strong enough to be stretched quite thin. The 260 g dough ball is appropriate for a 13 inch pizza, which is about as large as it can be and still hold toppings and have a nice cornice. Just fooling around, however, I've stretched single dough balls to over twenty inches without creating a hole.

On the subject of holes and thin spots in the pizza dough, how the final dough ball is rolled has much to do with the end result. You really have to be very careful to have a nice smooth top and, especially, a well sealed bottom with no hole. It's the hole in the bottom that results in a thin spot in your pizza.

With respect to pftaylor's comments, I'm completely unfamiliar with the "varasano preferment". I would love to hear more about it, including origin. I'm interested in testing it for comparison in workability and flavor.




Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2005, 06:55:23 PM »
Pete-zza:

Long time, no talk; good to hear from you via email.

I too have enjoyed the pizza at A16.  Although, I don't believe it is better than NY; but then, I don't believe NY is better than Chicago, and conversely, I don't believe that Chicago is better than NY.  Basically, I enjoy them all for what they are and feel fortunate when I get the best of the best per style.  And because I live in the SF bay area, I enjoy A16 as much as any pizza I've had and feel like they are saving me a trip to Naples.

With that said, I'd like to shed some light on A16's formula.  First, let me say that all numbers I give relate to their propensity to work in smaller batches. Although they use a machine to initially bring it together, all kneading is done by hand. And I really appreciate how each person owns a station, and only one person puts the pizza on the peel and that same person operates the oven for pizza only-- that's the only job that person owns.  Another uses the oven for meatballs, etc.

All numbers below for A16 relate to a final production of 10 9.5 oz dough balls, or 95 oz of final dough.

I'm always amazed at how much chefs are willing to share about their bread and butter (or oil in this case).  Christophe is certified from Naples; yet like so many others, he deviates from standards to make his personal touch.  Although he uses oil, the amount of oil he uses seems pretty negligible to me.  He recommends Fratelli Cucchiara Primus Gentile Extra Virgin Olive Oil.  He uses 30g, which translated is about 1 oz, or 2 TBL of oil (6 tsp), to reach the final results above. 

With regard to yeast, he recommends very little, which didn't surprise me.  I normally use 1/2 tsp active yeast per 20 oz of flour, and I need to punch it down at least twice over 2 days.  I often put several fork marks in it also to avoid huge bubbles in my 600F oven-- but then, I like to put the dough in before I place any toppings on it.  A16 uses 5g of instant dry yeast, to reach the final results above.  My calcs translate this to about .18 oz or about 1 tsp of instant yeast.  For my usual 20 oz of flour, this would give me 1/3 tsp of instant yeast, which translates fine for my 1/2 tsp of active yeast.  I see no problem in this, and the person who helps make the dough agreed. 

With regard to salt, 40g is recommended, which is 1.4 oz or 8 tsp or 2 TBL + 2 tsp. I remember that this seemed a bit high to me.  But I noticed the dough is a bit elastic (it ain't taffy) when they work it.  Since I know World tossing champs use very high amounts of salt to meet their elasticity goals, whenver I see someone working the dough to form it into a pizza, I suspect higher amounts of salt anyway. 

They use 1 liter of water, which is 33.8 oz.

You can figure out the flour from here.  Unfortunately, they converted the amount of Caputo Pizzeria Flour to lbs for some reason, and it appears that 59 oz of flour is used, to give them about 57% water.  The next time I'm up there, I am going to verify this number; although it works out with the 95 oz final results. With an ounce of oil, their hydration remains low.  Although, I think you need to account for their oven, which requires only 2 minutes and is discussed below.

ITALBRAND Italian Peeled tomatoes pureed in SALT is also recommended.  The pizzaiolio also told me they definitely put salt in with the ITALBRAND tomatoes, and I certainly agree with the results at home.  There are 2 different brands, one is much more expensive because it is DOP, and both are available via Whole Foods.  They both produce an incredibly perfect thin consistency once you puree them (thin avoids that pasty look), and you need do nothing else. 

750F is recommended for the oven, with 2 minutes for the result.  Although, I noticed that the last time it was at 800F.  The Person handling the oven places all toppings on the pizza, and then places it on his floured peel before placing it in the open design. Like other places with fire, they have an edge on the charred taste. My oven runs close to 600F.  And I have to be real careful when not using sugar, since sugar gives me a nice browning without over exposing it.

For those interested in other ingredients, here are some tidbits.  They don't use buffalo mozzarella. They put only a small number of fresh small mozz balls around the sides, and one bit in the middle, as do I when working with fresh mozz.  I've been perfectly happy with Grande (Whole Foods, Cupertino, CA) and fresh cow's milk from Trader Joes (which needs some salt), who also now carries buffalo mozz (although Whole Foods Buffalo mozz is less watery). 

Other A16 topping recommendations include: Costa dei Rosmarini Olive nere snocciolate (pitted black olives), La Recca salt-packed anchovies, and Italfoods Whole Greek Oregano, ITALfoods crushed chiles-- this combined with just the ITALBRAND pureed tomatoes, no mozz.

I think the rest is covered above, including pounding down twice during 2 days, before splitting into 9.5 oz dough balls.  I noticed that Pennmac is now making Caputo available in 5 lbs for $3.95.  I go through Whole Foods Bulk Department, who orders it for me in 25 kg (over 50 lbs).  Cost me $39, which is $31 more than I pay for Pendelton hi-gluten from Cash & Carry. Even though ITALBRANDS is in South SF, you need to order Caputo via a distributor.

Note: Your numbers below when multiplied by 10 check out. Since A16 kneads by hand, as do I, a bit of extra flour is added and the .05 difference per dough will work out just fine.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 11:35:18 PM by giotto »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2005, 10:01:33 PM »
giotto,

It's great to hear from you also. And I am glad to see you return with such a bang :). Having your input to the A16 reverse engineering project should be invaluable to fellow member Friz, if for no reason other than to confirm what he has already been able to uncover about the A16 dough from his visit to A16 and the information provided by pieguy and others. The dough processing discussion you provided should also be very useful.

Using your input, I calculated the baker's percents for the ingredients and amounts you provided. I then reduced the formulation to a single pizza dough ball size. Surprisingly, what you provided is quite close to the recipe provided by pieguy. That is significant since it gives greater confidence in the information we now have in hand. Some of your weight-conversion data for the lightweight ingredients (beyond flour and water) is a bit different from mine, but what I finally came up with for ingredients, quantities, and baker's percents for the single pizza dough ball size is as follows:

100%, Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, 5.90 oz. (1 1/3 c. plus 2 T.)
57.3%, Water, 3.38 oz. (a bit more than 3/8 c.)
2.4%, Salt, 0.14 oz. (a bit less than 3/4 t.)
1.79%, Extra-virgin olive oil, 0.11 oz. (a bit more than 5/8 t.)
0.30%, IDY, 0.02 oz. (about 1/6 t., or about 7 pinches between the thumb and forefinger)
Total dough ball weight: 9.45 oz. (for 13-inch pizza)
Thickness factor (TF) = 9.18/(3.14 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.071

Thanks again for contributing.

Peter

« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 09:11:34 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline duckjob

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2005, 03:21:24 AM »
Alright, here are my results. This was my first attempt at the A16 clone, and also my first time working with Caputo 00.  I followed friz's and pieguys instructions to a T, except that because of time constraints, I didn't punch down the dough until the 36 hour mark. At 48 hours I brought the dough out of the fridge and let it adjust to room temperature for 2 hours. I preheated my oven to 550 for one hour, and cooked the pizza for just over 5 minutes. I turned the broiler on high for the last 4 minutes. I made two pizzas, both came out pretty good. Like pftayor, I found that the bottom crust was crispier than with other pizzas I had made with KASL. I also plan to incorporate the Pizza Sophia mixing technique on my next try. This dough handled pretty well, but not nearly as well as doughs where an autolyse had been employed. I will mention though that the Caputo 00 flour beat out KASL in terms of taste. I wasn't expecting such a tangible difference, but I could taste it. And now, the pictures. As a side note, the pictures are of the second pie I made, the first pizza did exhibit a little better charing.

14 inch pie topped with Polly O fresh moz, and ezzo pepperoni(thanks pennmac!) I added Parmigiano Reggiano after baking.

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/A16_52905/a16_whole.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/A16_52905/a16_slice.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/A16_52905/a16_side.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/A16_52905/a16_bottom.jpg)

For those interested, here are the amounts I used for a 14 inch pie. The final dough ball weight was about 11 oz each

6.8 oz flour
3.9 oz water 
2/3 tsp salt
2/3 tsp oo
1/6 tsp  IDY

Brian
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 04:27:08 AM by duckjob »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2005, 08:51:43 AM »
Brian,

That's a mighty fine looking pizza. I will be interested in seeing how using an autolyse changes things, either in terms of the handling qualities of the dough or the flavor of the crust, or both.

Peter


Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2005, 10:06:59 PM »
Giotto,
Thanks for all the great feedback and follow up on your experiences and research from visiting A16.  I was not aware that they did all of the dough kneading by hand.  Do you have any special hand kneading techniques that you use that you could share?  I would like to try it and see if it produced any noticeable results.  I would also be curious to know if you find any noticeable results from hand kneading and, if you do, what those results might be.

Following up on my latest A16 creation, I made three pizzas (13 in.) over the weekend with the recipe and preparation techniques provided by pieguy.  The results were quite good and well received by my family.  Popular consensus in my family was that they preferred the pieguy recipe over the pizzanapaletana recipe, but it was close.  While the pieguy recipe had a slight edge, my family noted the preference was based mostly on their belief that the pieguy pizza was not quite as "salty" as the pizzanapelatana recipe.

Attached are pictures for everyone's review and feedback.  Each pizza was cooked in a 550 degree oven on a pizza stone for a little over five minutes.  San Marzano tomatoes (DOP) and Grande mozz cheese were used.

Also, regardin the efforts of pft and duckjob, I thought both of your pizzas looked fantastic.  It looked like the rim on both set of pies was a bit too big.  When viewing the large rim on pft's pizza, I wondered if it might have been caused by the autolyse he incorporate, which would give credence to my hypothesis that autolyse might create too much of a breadlike effect with 00 flour.  However, that theory was put back into question when I noticed the fairly large and puffy rim on Duckjob's pizza.  Realizing that Duck did not use an autolyse, that probably isn't the cause for the large rim after all.  For whatever reason (oven temp maybe?), my rim wasn't as large as those of PFT and Duckjob.

All in all, I would give pieguy's recipe and mixing technique a very high grade.  I look forward to tweaking this recipe with some of Giotto's feedback and seeing if there is any noticeable difference in the final outcome. 

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2005, 10:47:42 PM »
pic

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2005, 10:56:48 PM »
pizza #2

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2005, 11:02:25 PM »
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pizzapan