Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 144239 times)

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Offline foodblogger

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #260 on: February 28, 2006, 07:53:22 PM »
Definately keep me posted pete.  My Caputo just got here, and I have to start somewhere so I will try to duplicate whatever you come up with for the same day. 

Perhaps you should start a new thread with your results/formula with a healthy nod back to this thread.  I think a same day procedure is a fairly significant departure from what they are doing at A16.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 08:06:36 PM by foodblogger »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #261 on: February 28, 2006, 08:37:47 PM »
foodblogger,

I already have a home for it, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.0.html. I had intended all along to try out a same-day pieguy dough but hadn't gotten around to it. I also plan to try a home version of a Neapolitan pizza dough put out by the VPN (Verace Pizza Napoletana) organization once I figure out the appropriate processing steps for a home oven. In due course I also plan to work on some same-day doughs using the Bel Aria 00 flour, which has a short fermentation cycle and works reasonably well for a same-day application.

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #262 on: March 23, 2006, 09:40:39 AM »
I have just the right amount of time to try Pieguy's 48 hour Caputo dough.  The original post was here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12512.html#msg12512

I have a couple questions for those of you who have tried his method.
1)  He mentions a 10 minute mix of the flour.  I am assuming that the flour was added gradually.  A knead is never mentioned.  Did you knead the dough after the 10 minute mix?
2)  He then lets the dough rise until tripled, punches down and folds.  He then puts the dough into the fridge, with an occasional punch and fold over the next 48 hours.  It then sounds like he divides the dough into individual balls and 'gently proofs for 6 hours'.  Did anyone do that additional proof?  Do you think he meant for that proof to be done in the fridge or at room temp?

Thanks in advance,
FB

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #263 on: March 23, 2006, 10:17:28 AM »
foodblogger,

My recollection is that I kneaded the dough after the 10-minute period--during which time the flour was added gradually as you surmised. I also read pieguy's instructions to mean a 6-hour "proof" at room temperature.

Apropos of your recent remarks on thin spots on the same-day Caputo thread, you might also be interested in the following observation from Reply 71 of this thread, in which pieguy noted:

On the subject of holes and thin spots in the pizza dough, how the final dough ball is rolled has much to do with the end result. You really have to be very careful to have a nice smooth top and, especially, a well sealed bottom with no hole. It's the hole in the bottom that results in a thin spot in your pizza.

In my experience, if the hydration is too low, it can be hard to pinch off and seal the dough at the bottom. I still haven't quite figured out how to prevent the dough from forming "cracks", however, they seem to be reduced when I use enough water to keep the dough a bit on the wet side.

Peter


« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 01:03:50 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #264 on: March 23, 2006, 10:50:22 AM »
Pete -
Thanks for the reply.  I saw that post by pieguy too and was planning on implementing it when I separate the dough into balls for the room temp rise.  I was thinking of starting with his recommended 57% and adding a little water at a time until the dough feels right but not sticky.  I'll keep track and post my final hydration.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #265 on: March 23, 2006, 01:01:19 PM »
Hello all. Here are some comments based on what I've learned in the interim. Periodic dough troubles have sparked adjustments, re-examination and refinements.

1. I still use the same recipe as written in my original post that pete-zza referenced below, although I no longer give the yeast 20 minutes to hydrate (I realized that the time elapsed while I finished weighing salt, oil, getting the mixer reasy, etc. was more than enough). The quantity of flour, however, is an approximation and I never weigh it. I start with 1.5 kg (one full, level flour scoop) per liter of water and add the remainder within the first five-six minutes of the mix . I'm more careful now than I used to be about keeping the dough on the wet side (as pete-zza recommends below). I think that it comes out best when, grabbing a fistful of dough in the bowl and then releasing, it sticks to my hand but then pulls away cleanly. I would descibe this sensation as "very tacky". I don't knead it after the mix.

2. The main problem I've had with the pizza balls other than excessively stiff dough (which, as pete-zza points out, is reluctant to form a smooth, sealed ball) is underproofed dough. This results in puffy, cranky pizza dough that is hard to handle. A nasty bout with this foe forced me to re-evaluate my process and seek consultation from a more skilled individual. As a result, I now use very warm water for the dough (105-110 F) and greatly increased the length of the room-temp rise after mixing. In both cases, the goal was to get the yeast to run through its vigorously active phase before it gets refrigerated for 48 hrs. The outcome is dough that is smooth, relaxed, easy to roll and very flavorful.

3. I also reduced the amount of "punching and folding" to which I treated the dough. The folding was originally an effort to strengthen the dough by periodically stretching and lengthening the gluten, as well as a way to keep the dough from overflowing its container. Realizing, however, that an aspect of my occassional problem was excessively strong dough, I now treat it much more gently, folding and flipping only twice: once during the initial rise and again before leaving it for the night.

3. Regarding foodblogger's question #2, the dough is portioned and rolled after the 48-hours under refrigeration, and I let those pizza balls proof at room temperature until they are roughly doubled in size (at which point they could be shaped into a pizza). I then put them back into the refrigerator, which slows down the development but keeps them in "a state of readiness" if you will. The pizza balls are cooked a minimum of 7 hours after being rolled (the VPN's rules dictate a six-hour minimum). At that point, 51 to 58 hours have elapsed since mixing.

Pete-zza: I'm not sure what you mean by "cracks" in the dough. Something other than holes in the bottom? A crust on top?

cheers,

PG


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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #266 on: March 23, 2006, 03:03:30 PM »
Pieguy -
Thanks a ton for the update.  I'll be trying your method out for pies this weekend.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #267 on: March 23, 2006, 03:24:20 PM »
pieguy,

I, too, thank you for the update.

Maybe "fissures" or "crevices" would have been a better term to use than "cracks". What I was trying to describe is the way that a dough ball can refuse to be sealed on the bottom if the dough is too dry. If I try to make the outer skin of the dough ball taut and pull the dough together at the bottom and pinch the edges together, they refuse to stay sealed. To give you a better idea of what I mean, I went into my kitchen and made a roughly 9-ounce hand kneaded dough ball using your most recent instructions. I intentionally used less water than called for by the formulation in order to produce an under-hydrated dough ball for demonstration purposes The first photo below shows what can happen when the dough is under hydrated. I tried to gather the edges of the ball and to pinch them like the tip of an onion and to tuck them under and seal the exposed edges. But, as you can see, they won’t seal properly no matter what you do to the dough ball and you end up with crevices in the dough ball. I kept the lighting down in the photo to more clearly show the crevices.

What I do when I have a dough ball that looks and behave like the one shown in the first photo below is to put a bit of water on one side of my butcher block and a scattering of flour on the other side. I then roll the dough ball in the water while kneading it at the same time to get the dough ball to absorb the water and make it wet on the outside. I don’t use more water than about a teaspoon at a time. Otherwise, the dough ball will just glide over the surface of the board. I keep doing this until the ball starts to assume a smoother shape and feel and the crevices start to disappear. I then roll the dough ball alternately between the water on the board and the flour on the board until all the water has been used up and the dough ball is smooth yet tacky. This is the point where I normally weigh the finished dough ball to see if is of the proper weight. If it is a bit shy, I add a bit more water and flour to the board and work them in as described above. The second photo below shows the final dough ball that emerged after applying these procedures to the dough ball shown in the first photo. It was completely round and completely smooth all over.

I might add that the above technique works for just about any dough, not just a Caputo dough. I mention this because sometimes novice pizza makers will often end up with an under-hydrated dough and think that that is normal and what was intended by the recipe they were following. Sometimes that will be true, as with cracker-type crusts, but in most cases the final dough ball should be smooth and without tears on the surface. And no crevices.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 06:02:58 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #268 on: March 23, 2006, 07:12:19 PM »
I'm a bit lost
 
I'm unsure about which recipe pieguy is still using that pete referenced below.  I'm thrown off a bit because a new topic branched off from this one.

Would someone be so kind as to provide a link? I've been trying to sort it out and am a bit frustrated.

Thanks  :)
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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #269 on: March 23, 2006, 09:18:39 PM »
Pete-zza: Although I realize that you exaggerated for effect, that ball of dough seems extremely dry. When I have dough that's a bit underhydrated and difficult to form, I'll see the ball slowly open up a bit, revealing holes on the inside, but it'll still stay at least partly closed. Usually, it won't even happen during the initial shaping but rather in the dough pan, slowly but steadily while I'm not looking. I've never had to deal with anything that radical.

I think that if you have to go through the complicated procedure that you explained for dry dough, you might as well start over. Even though you eventually manage to yield a smooth and uniform dough ball, it is still, fundamentally, an underhydrated dough. You may also be overworking the dough in the effort. I carefully avoid ever mixing a dough to which I need to add water. This invariably results in mediocre dough (the effect on the finished pizza is not necessarily noticable but it can be murderous to produce).

I gather from your posts that you adjust your recipes to yield single dough balls. Although you seem to be scrupulously precise, I think that you'd have better results by working in larger batches. Whenever I make a small batch of dough, anywhere from a quarter to a third of what I normally make, despite using the same recipe, ingredients and procedure, it doesn't come out as nice as my normal batch of dough. I think that it has to do with how the dough develops: how long it ferments, how long it stays warm, how quickly it cools down, and other mysterious yeast phenomena. A large mass of dough is relatively insulated from environmental variation by simple reason of its volume and, all things being equal, tends to absorb variations in ingredients more easily. A 9 ounce balls of dough is far more susceptible to even minute variations in temperature and ingredients (like the moisture content of your flour, for instance). So for all of your experiments, I would mix enough dough for 8-10 pizzas. This gives you enough material to try different proofing times and temperatures, as well as hone your rolling and stretching technique, but most importantly, I'm confident that it will be a more accurate representation of the dough that you were aiming to produce.


Lydia: The recipe that we are discussing is as follows:

(makes enough dough for ten pizzas)
1 liter of water (105-110 F)
5 grams IDY
30 grams olive oil
40 grams salt
1.75 kg Caputo )) pizzeria flour (approximate)

Mix the first four ingredients in the order listed. Put in mixer, add flour and mix for 8-10 minutes. Proof at room temp for 4-8 hours (depend on your room temp). Refrigerate for two nights, roll on the second morning, proof at room temp for 4-8 hours (ditto) until the dough has developed to the point that it is workable.


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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #270 on: March 23, 2006, 09:54:58 PM »
Thank you so very much.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #271 on: March 24, 2006, 01:20:24 AM »
pieguy,

Pizzanapoletana (Marco) admonished me some time ago about making only single dough balls. He suggested that I make a larger quantity and use the leftover to make rolls or bread or something like that. Even though I had no reason to doubt Marco, it was just that I couldn't use up the large volume. At the time, also, the Caputo Pizzeria flour was hard to come by and I was trying to preserve every last speck of it and use it only for pizzas. For better or worse, the single-pizza approach has become my standard operating procedure--one I use for all types of pizzas.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 24, 2006, 02:38:00 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #272 on: March 24, 2006, 03:37:28 AM »
I hesitate to ask but... can we freeze the extra dough balls, or is that a taboo?  Anyone tried freezing them yet?
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #273 on: March 24, 2006, 09:05:53 AM »
I made up the dough last night.  I added 80% of the flour during the mix and then added about a tablespoon at a time until the dough matched pieguy's description:

Quote
I think that it comes out best when, grabbing a fistful of dough in the bowl and then releasing, it sticks to my hand but then pulls away cleanly. I would descibe this sensation as "very tacky".

My final hydration came out at 58.9%.  I then let the dough rise until tripled in size.  It took about 3 hours at my room temp of 65 degrees.  I'll post full details of what happened when I report the results.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #274 on: March 27, 2006, 04:47:24 PM »
I made a batch of pieguy dough this weekend.  Here are some details of what I did -

Pieguy’s A16 48 Hour Fridge Rise Caputo Dough

Formula
Caputo 00 pizzeria flour    100%
Water (105-110 degrees)   57%
Sea Salt         2.3%
Olive Oil         1.7%
IDY            0.29%

A 14 inch pizza with a thickness factor of 0.12 should have a dough ball that weighs 523 grams.  The total percentage for this recipe is 161.29

Recipe for 2 dough balls, 14 inch size, TF 0.12

Flour   649 g
Water   370 g
Salt   15 g
Oil   11 g
IDY   2 g

Processing
1)   Dissolve yeast in water.  While it is dissolving weigh out the rest of the ingredients.  Add olive oil. 
2)   Add 80% of the flour while mixing over 5 minutes.  Add the salt when about 40% of the flour is in.  At the 5 minute mark feel the dough.  It should be very tacky, stick to your hand but then release.  If it is too wet add a little more flour.  Mix for a total of 10 minutes.
3)   At the end of the mixing form the dough into a ball and place into a lightly oiled bowl.  Cover with plastic wrap and allow it to rise until tripled in size.
4)   Punch dough down and fold it in thirds like folding a letter.  Turn the dough upside down so that the folds are on the bottom.  Put into bowl and cover with plastic wrap.
5)   Refrigerate dough for 48 hours.  During this time monitor the dough.  When the dough doubles in size repeat the punching down and folding detailed in step 4.  It will be punched down only once during the fridge rise.
6)   At the end of refrigeration divide the dough into equal sized balls.  Be very careful shaping the balls so that there is a smooth top.  Seal the bottom of the dough ball very well so that there is no hole.
7)   Proof individual dough balls at room temperature until doubled in size.  When doubled in size place in the fridge until ready to use.  From the time you form the dough balls until the time you use them should be a minimum of 6 hours.
8)   Shape and bake.


My final hydration came out at 58.9%.  I made one cheese pizza and I decided to go crazy and see how well the dough would perform as a Sicilian style.  Here is a photo of the cheese pizza.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #275 on: March 27, 2006, 04:48:11 PM »
Here is a photo of the Sicilian.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #276 on: March 27, 2006, 04:49:31 PM »
I couldn't resist putting up a photo of a closeup of the Sicilian slice.  Doesn't it look tasty?

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #277 on: March 27, 2006, 04:56:28 PM »
Observations -
1)  The Pieguy dough has an excellent flavor.  I like it a lot better than the same day Caputo doughs I have been making lately.  While the same day doughs taste like beer, the Pieguy doughs taste more like a sourdough with a better mouth feel.
2)  58.9 % hydration seemed about perfect in my hands.  When the dough balls are rising they hold their shape a lot better than the same day balls at 60.6%.  The one thing I was worried about was that the dough would be harder to shape at lower hydration but it was not the case.  The dough stretched very well and was never in danger of forming holes.
3)  I have better luck using .12 as a thickness factor when I am using Caputo flour.  When I use bread flour .10 seems to come out perfect, but Caputo is different. 
4)  The crust was nice and crispy on the outside and tender and fluffy on the inside with lots of large and varied voids in the rim.
5)  As expected the dough performs differently as a Sicilian dough, primarily because you bake it in a pan instead of slapping it on the hot stone.  There were fewer voids in the Sicilian pie.  This dough recipe makes a VERY good Sicilian style pie.
6)  Difara knew what he was doing when he came up with his protocol for baking Sicilians by the slice.  I followed his protocols exactly as far as baking the dough with only sauce on top first, then topping with cheese and the rest of the toppings.  I added the mushrooms after taking the pizza out of the oven.

Conclusion:  Pieguy dough makes an excellent pizza using Caputo flour.  The flavor development is excellent and the dough handles very well.  It browned up nicely in the oven and had a near perfect texture when done.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #278 on: March 27, 2006, 05:49:58 PM »
foodblogger,

Very nice job. The pizzas look great. Do you plan to use the same-day approach now that you have tried the 2+ days approach with the pieguy formulation?

I assume you used the same bake protocol as you described recently on the same-day Caputo thread. Can you repeat them here for the benefit of those who have not seen them?

Thanks.

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #279 on: March 28, 2006, 04:35:15 PM »
Pete-zza:
I set my oven up exactly like I did for this post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2638.msg22818.html#msg22818
Pizza stone on bottom rack with an additional stone 7.5 inches above.  I preheated the oven at 550 degrees, opening the door a couple times to refire it.  15 minutes before I was planning on putting the pizza on the stone I fired up the broiler for 10 minutes, saving the last 5 minutes for heat from the bottom.

I then slid the pizza on the bottom stone.  At that point I turned on the broiler.  I baked the pizza on the bottom stone for 3 1/2 minutes (timer).  I then took the pizza from the bottom stone, rotated it 180 degrees and slid it onto the top stone, under the broiler.  It baked and additional 2 1/2 minutes (timer) before it looked done.

I'll definately be using the same day approach again.  It is good to have lots of different arrows in the quiver. 


 

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