Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 155253 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #250 on: February 28, 2006, 10:26:20 AM »
It’s been a while since I have made a Neapolitan-style pizza, but when foodblogger became interested in this thread and started making Neapolitan-style pies, I decided to make a few Neapolitan-style pies myself. For this purpose, I decided to use the pieguy formulation that I had posted at Reply 62.

My initial intent was to make just a single pie based on the pieguy formulation, using the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. But after preparing the dough in accordance with pieguy’s instructions, I saw that the dough did not rise noticeably after several hours at room temperature. I had recalled that member friz78 commented in one of his posts that his dough had doubled in a matter of a few hours, and I further recalled that pieguy himself remarked that in Naples it is common to increase the amount of yeast significantly when it is cold. Since I wasn’t quite sure whether my dough wasn’t rising because of too little yeast, too low a room temperature, or the instructions I was following, I decided to make two more dough balls with different ingredient sequencing to be able to later compare the results from using the three dough balls.

All three doughs were essentially identical but for the sequencing of ingredients. All three doughs were also kneaded entirely by hand and in all respects were handled essentially the same while under fermentation in the refrigerator. The three doughs had the following sequencing and staging of ingredients:
 
Pizza #1: Water (at 100 degrees F), yeast (IDY) and oil all together during proofing of the yeast, followed by the flour and salt (the salt was mixed in with the flour).
Pizza #2: Water (at 100 degrees F) and yeast (IDY) together during proofing of the yeast, followed by the flour and salt (the salt was mixed in with the flour), and, finally, the oil.
Pizza #3: Salt dissolved in water (at 100 degrees F), followed by flour and yeast (the IDY was mixed in with the flour) and, finally, the oil.

As it turned out, the dough ball for Pizza #1 was the hardest to make, followed by the dough ball for Pizza #2. Both were stiff and on the dry side and rather difficult to knead--which I attributed to their relatively low hydration levels. The dough ball for Pizza #3 was by far the easiest dough ball to make, even though it was the same from an ingredient and hydration standpoint. It was as I like it--soft and a bit tacky.

It took each dough ball about 14 hours at room temperature to better than double. Each dough ball was then put into the refrigerator for about 48 hours, and periodically subjected to punchdowns and folding along the lines described by pieguy. In all cases, the dough ball for Pizza #3 continued to handle better than the two other dough balls. All three dough balls were allowed to rise at room temperature (about 65 degrees F) for about 6 hours in preparation for forming into skins, also in accordance with pieguy’s instructions.

To bake the pizzas, I decided to use two stones, one on the lowest oven rack position and the other on the second oven rack from the top. I also placed several tiles over the second stone to cover the spaces at the sides and back of the second stone so that I would, in effect, make an oven within an oven (see first photo below). I also wanted to achieve the highest oven temperature possible so that the pies would bake as quickly as possible in my oven. In furtherance of this objective, I turned on the broiler for about ten minutes before baking the pies to get the top stone and tiles as hot as possible. From what I can tell, the temperature of the top stone/tiles reached over 550 degrees F.

All three pies were dressed, albeit somewhat differently, with the same basic ingredients--a combination of a pureed Cento San Marzano DOP tomato sauce, fresh sliced mozzarella cheese, Sicilian sea salt, extra virgin olive oil, a few sprinkles of red pepper flakes, Sicilian dried oregano, and pepperoni slices.

Each of the dough balls for Pizza #1 and Pizza #2 was shaped into a 13-inch skin, and, after dressing, was baked on the lower stone for about 5 minutes. At about 3 or 4 minutes into the bake cycle, I turned on the broiler and moved the pie onto the top stone/tiles where it received direct heat from the broiler (plus heat from the top stone/tiles) for about another minute or two. The photos below show the finished Pizza #1 and Pizza #2. Both pizzas had good flavor and taste, but I found them to be too stiff, light (weight) and a bit cardboard-like. What I was hoping to achieve was a soft and tender crust with a rim and crumb with a nice hole structure.

The above results with Pizza #1 and Pizza #2 forced me to completely rethink what I was doing. So, for Pizza #3, I decided on the following strategy. First, instead of making a 13-inch skin, I elected to make it around 9 or 10 inches. Second, I used cheese, sauce and pepperoni slices that were cold right out of the refrigerator. Third, when the skin was formed, I rubbed a small amount of oil on the rim. Last, I decided that I would bake the pizza on the lower stone for about 3 or 4 minutes and, as I placed Pizza #3 on the lower stone, I would turn on the upper broiler element and later move the pizza from the lower stone onto the upper stone/tiles to finish baking under the broiler element (plus the heat from the top stone/tiles). This strategy was calculated to bake the pie faster, keep the crust soft and tender (by virtue of the increased dough thickness), keep the cheese and pepperoni slices from overcooking (by putting them on cold), and provide good top crust browning (because of oiling the rim and the broiler heat) and bottom crust browning (because of the superheated top stone/tiles).

This strategy worked just about perfectly. Pizza # 3 was baked on the lower stone for about 3-4 minutes and then moved on top of the second stone/tiles under the broiler that had been turned on when I placed the pizza onto the bottom stone. Pizza #3 was on the top stone/tiles for about a minute. The crust and crumb were soft and tender, there was very good oven spring (noticeably better than Pizza # 1 and Pizza #2), a nice and open and airy rim and crumb, and good top and bottom browning of the crust. This was without a doubt the best of the three pizzas. It was delicious and a pleasure to eat.

I concluded from the exercise that the sequencing of ingredients for Pizza #3 is the one I will use in the future for the pieguy formulation--although I will allow that it is possible that using the strategy I followed for Pizza #3 may well work if applied the same way to Pizza #1 and Pizza #2. In addition, I will use the 9-10” skin size and the baking protocol I used for Pizza #3. To make a larger size pizza, say, 13 inches as originally intended, I can simply use the thickness factor for Pizza #3 to do the scaling. I calculated a thickness factor of 0.117 (for 10-inch size).

Peter
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 12:09:01 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #251 on: February 28, 2006, 10:30:07 AM »
Pizza #1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #252 on: February 28, 2006, 10:34:54 AM »
Pizza #2

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #253 on: February 28, 2006, 10:38:30 AM »
Pizza #3

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #254 on: February 28, 2006, 11:37:28 AM »
Pete-zza:
Great post and awesome looking pies!  My Caputo should be coming sometime this week.  I have a few questions.

Quote
The dough ball for Pizza #3 was by far the easiest dough ball to make, even though it was the same from an ingredient and hydration standpoint. It was as I like it--soft and a bit tacky.

Did you alter the hydration % for pie 3 or do you attribute the different feel to the mixing of salt/water and then adding flour and later oil?  Sorry if you already answered this and I missed it.

Quote
I further recalled that pieguy himself remarked that in Naples it is common to increase the amount of yeast significantly when it is cold. Since I wasn’t quite sure whether my dough wasn’t rising because of too little yeast, too low a room temperature, or the instructions I was following, I decided to make two more dough balls with different ingredient sequencing to be able to later compare the results from using the three dough balls.

The dough I made last weekend performed similarly to yours as I recall.  It rose but not very much.  I thought about the room being to cold when I was making my dough last weekend.  I usually keep my house at around 62 in the winter because heating is so expensive and I like to wear sweaters like Jimmy Carter.  On that day I turned the heat up to 69 just to make sure that the ambient temp wasn't too cold for the dough.  Did you find that pie #3 rose differently than the other pies?  I wonder what the ambient temperature is in the average pizza shop in Naples.  I bet the kitchens are very hot, what with the wood burning oven right there.

I wonder if adding the yeast right to the salt water might be a bit much to overcome if the temperature of your kitchen is lower.  Even 69 would probably be considered a cold kitchen in Naples.  I bet not a lot of those kitchens are air conditioned.  What do you think?

You mentioned that pies 1 &2 had different finishded crusts than #3.  Have you been able to attribute this to anything in particular?

Quote
To bake the pizzas, I decided to use two stones, one on the lowest oven rack position and the other on the second oven rack from the top. I also placed several tiles over the second stone to cover the spaces at the sides and back of the second stone so that I would, in effect, make an oven within an oven (see first photo below).

I've been doing this for a while in an attempt to recreate a Neapolitan oven but I never thought to slide the pizza onto the top rack and broil it briefly.  Nice innovation.  Did you find that the overall baking times were indeed shorter than you usually end up with?
Quote
I concluded from the exercise that the sequencing of ingredients for Pizza #3 is the one I will use in the future for the pieguy formulation--although I will allow that it is possible that using the strategy I followed for Pizza #3 may well work if applied the same way to Pizza #1 and Pizza #2.
I like that sequence as well.  It is very similar to the pftaylor dough protocol.  He adds the salt to the water and then half the flour and yeast for a modified autolyse.  I can't exactly explain why it works so much better, but it just does. 

Quote
I calculated a thickness factor of 0.11 (for 10-inch size).

After my pizzas last weekend I have been thinking of doing several dough balls from the same batch and stretching them to different thickness factors.  I would be willing to bet that the same dough would produce radically different crusts at 0.07, 0.09 and .11 thickness factors.  I wonder if the more desireable characteristic of your last pie was more due to the thickness factor and less to the initial processing.  I still can't explain why the dough was easier to work for pie #3 though.

I think I am figuring out what I want to be able to do with my Caputo flour.  It seems to me that the flour was engineered to be able to make a great pie with same day processing.  What I would like to do is wake up in the morning, start a dough, and have it be ready to go by dinner time.  Caputo flour should be perfect for that, except that I don't have a Neapolitan oven.  The other thing I would like to be able to do is produce a same-day pie that has a crust flavor that rivals my 72 hour pies.  Eventually that may entail adding a small amount of pre-ferment but I hate to do that.

Another way of increasing the flavor in these pies might be to add all of the water, yeast, salt and oil and half of the flour in the morning.  Then let it ferment on the counter all day.  I am not sure if that would be enough time for the yeast to start utilizing anaerobic metabolism but it might be worth a shot.  A few hours before you were planning on baking you could work the rest of the flour in and let it rise once more in its final form.  What do you think?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #255 on: February 28, 2006, 01:53:05 PM »
foodblogger,

I weighed the flour and water for all three dough balls, so the dough ball for Pizza #3 was made the same as the others but for the sequencing of ingredients. The sequencing for Pizza #3 was intentional, and I chose to use it to see if it was a material factor in the final results. The sequencing I used for Pizza #3 mirrors the basic approach used in Naples. The salt is first dissolved in the water without the yeast. Salt is hygroscopic and if added to the water along with the yeast it can suck out yeast fluids through osmosis and harm yeast performance. The way to get around this is to dissolve the salt in the water and let it absorb liquid from the water. Once it is "full", it is safe to add the yeast. In Naples, it is not as common to use oil in the dough but, when used, I follow Tom Lehmann's advice which is to add the oil last. Otherwise, the oil can impede the hydration of the flour. As you can see, I took a strict scientific approach with the dough for Pizza #3.

One of the things I might have done differently had I been more attentive would have been to add more yeast and increase the hydration a bit more. When pieguy posted his formulation, he indicated that the amount of flour was approximate. And when I checked back on the dates of pieguy's and friz78 posts, I saw that they were dated toward the end of May of last year when it was undoubtedly much warmer than current temperatures here in Texas. Starting all over again, I would do as they do in Naples and use more yeast, or make other compensatory moves (e.g., flour or salt adjustments). Since I don't have any idea of kitchen temperatures in Naples, at this time of year I would just increase the yeast by about 25% and see what happens.

The interesting thing about all three doughs is that they behaved identically both at room temperature and while in the refrigerator. I marked the start and end points on my containers and they were virtually identical. This told me that the formulation was basically sound, but the question of which sequencing protocol was the best of the three I used remained open. I'm not sure I still know--because of my departure with Pizza #3--but the dough for Pizza #3 did perform better. I would have to repeat the dough making protocols for Pizza #1 and Pizza #2 and process them as I did for Pizza #3 to see if anything changes.

I think it was the total protocol with Pizza #3 that was responsible for the better results, including the crust. Each thing I did was done purposefully to achieve a particular objective. However, if I had to pick the changes that were most material, I would say increasing the thickness of the dough and using the particular baking protocol I chose for Pizza #3. I theorized that not overbaking the pizza on the lower stone, as by leaving it there too long, and then baking the top of the pizza as quickly as possible and with as much heat as possible, both from the broiler and the superheated top stone/tiles, I would be able to bake the pizza faster (which it did) and have both top and bottom balanced from a bake standpoint. I made no particular effort to make a bigger rim for Pizza #3, but it came out bigger anyway, and with noticeably better porosity. The use of stone and broiler was not new to me, and I have used that approach on many occasions with the Lehmann doughs. Usually, however, I don't use two stones and tiles, and the same overall baking protocol as I did with the three pizzas, but I do have plans to do so at some point with the Lehmann doughs.

The lesson I learned from making the three pizzas is that just because a Neapolitan dough recipe recites a particular amount of dough in relation to a particular pizza size that you should slavishly follow it. pieguy had noted a 750 degree oven temperature for practicing his formulation, and that would work with a thin 13-inch pizza at that oven temperature. For a home oven operating at a lower temperature, it perhaps makes sense to use a thicker dough and larger thickness factor. I also agree with you that if you use materially different thickness factors, the results can have wide variations.

You are also correct that the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is intended for room temperature fermentation. It can be started the same day or the dough can be made in the evening and allowed to ferment overnight for use the next day. I will double check the W number for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour to refresh my memory and to let you know the typical fermentation time for the Capito Pizzeria flour.

Trying to increase the flavor of the Caputo crust on a same-day basis can be done, as by using a preferment as you mentioned. I have used natural preferments with the Caputo 00 flour and got exceptional flavor results. If this is of interest to you, you might read the thread I started on this subject (Caputo 00 Dough and 00 Biga). You can also use a poolish or biga or something similar, although I would be inclined to leave the salt and oil out and add them to the final dough along with the poolish/biga.

Another thing you may want to consider is to make a simple and cheap proofing box. It will be far cheaper over the long haul than jacking up the temperature where you live just to get a higher fermentation temperature. I have used the proofing box on many occasions and thought to use it when I made the three doughs but decided against it so that I would be faithful to the recipe and the way it was intended to be used.

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #256 on: February 28, 2006, 02:59:50 PM »
Quote
The sequencing I used for Pizza #3 mirrors the basic approach used in Naples. The salt is first dissolved in the water without the yeast.


The more I learn about Caputo flour, the more I think I should try to mimick the Naples processing with just a few alterations to make the result doable in my home oven.  Your latest experiments seem to confirm that.

Quote
Salt is hygroscopic and if added to the water along with the yeast it can suck out yeast fluids through osmosis and harm yeast performance. The way to get around this is to dissolve the salt in the water and let it absorb liquid from the water. Once it is "full", it is safe to add the yeast.


Coming from a biochemistry/microbiology background I might say this a little differently, using different terms but what you are saying is essentially correct.

Quote
In Naples, it is not as common to use oil in the dough but, when used, I follow Tom Lehmann's advice which is to add the oil last. Otherwise, the oil can impede the hydration of the flour.


I will definately add the oil last when my Caputo flour arrives.

Quote
As you can see, I took a strict scientific approach with the dough for Pizza #3.


I'd be interested to see if the experiment was reproduceable again and again by independant investigators.   ;) 

Quote
One of the things I might have done differently had I been more attentive would have been to add more yeast and increase the hydration a bit more.


If you were going to adapt pieguy's recipe to a sameday dough how much would you increase the hydration and would you change the salt % at all?  What would you do if you wanted to do a 6 hour poolish followed by an hour to an hour and a half rise after mixing in the remaining ingredients?

Quote
Since I don't have any idea of kitchen temperatures in Naples, at this time of year I would just increase the yeast by about 25% and see what happens.


This is where things could get interesting.  It would be cool to try to figure out a formula for various ambient temperatures.  If you could figure out an ideal amount of yeast or salt % for each temperature you could plot it on a curve and hopefully be able to predict what you should do for just about any given temperature within reason.

If you are looking to achieve more fermentation during a given time, I would think that you would be better off improving the living conditions for the yeast rather than doubling the amount of yeast which still have to live in an environment unsuitable for fermentation at the specified temp.  I would think that you would have more luck tweaking the hydration and salt % than doubling the amount of yeast.  The challenge would then become not changing the hydration so much that you end up with a different crust.  I guess this is what pizzanapoletana means when he says that Neapolitan dough requires a Master Pizza Maker.  There are a lot of factors to balance if you want to achieve consistant results regardless of ambient temp.

Quote
The interesting thing about all three doughs is that they behaved identically both at room temperature and while in the refrigerator. I marked the start and end points on my containers and they were virtually identical. This told me that the formulation was basically sound, but the question of which sequencing protocol was the best of the three I used remained open.


To me this would suggest that the yeast in each dough ball was subjected to the exact same environment in terms of salt/water/available food/temperature.  The fact that all three balls rose the exact same amount tells me that adding salt to the water at the same time as the yeast has no effect on how well the yeast performs.

Quote
I'm not sure I still know--because of my departure with Pizza #3--but the dough for Pizza #3 did perform better.  I would have to repeat the dough making protocols for Pizza #1 and Pizza #2 and process them as I did for Pizza #3 to see if anything changes.


The thing I can't explain is why dough #3 felt wetter and was easier to work.  If I were you I would repeat everything the exact same way you did it the first time to see if it was a fluke. 

Quote
if I had to pick the changes that were most material, I would say increasing the thickness of the dough and using the particular baking protocol I chose for Pizza #3. I theorized that not overbaking the pizza on the lower stone, as by leaving it there too long, and then baking the top of the pizza as quickly as possible and with as much heat as possible, both from the broiler and the superheated top stone/tiles, I would be able to bake the pizza faster (which it did) and have both top and bottom balanced from a bake standpoint.

I've simply got to try that baking protocol.  How long did you leave the pie on the bottom stone?

Quote
You are also correct that the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is intended for room temperature fermentation. It can be started the same day or the dough can be made in the evening and allowed to ferment overnight for use the next day. I will double check the W number for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour to refresh my memory and to let you know the typical fermentation time for the Capito Pizzeria flour.


That would be extremely helpful.

Quote
Trying to increase the flavor of the Caputo crust on a same-day basis can be done, as by using a preferment as you mentioned. I have used natural preferments with the Caputo 00 flour and got exceptional flavor results. If this is of interest to you, you might read the thread I started on this subject (Caputo 00 Dough and 00 Biga). You can also use a poolish or biga or something similar, although I would be inclined to leave the salt and oil out and add them to the final dough along with the poolish/biga.

I am loathe to use a preferment for the Caputo dough.  I'd like to be able to make the pizza from start to finish in one day.  With that in mind I think I'll try the poolish and take your advice to add the oil and salt at the end.

Quote
Another thing you may want to consider is to make a simple and cheap proofing box. It will be far cheaper over the long haul than jacking up the temperature where you live just to get a higher fermentation temperature.


I agree completely.  The problem is that my wife actually encourages me to turn the heat up for a few hours, but if I show up with a contraption that takes up space she'll be pissed.

Thanks a ton for all your advice.  I think we can figure out how to make a high-flavor same day caputo dough.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #257 on: February 28, 2006, 05:12:12 PM »
foodblogger,

I agree with you that it is hard to draw too many conclusions from a single experiment, especially in a home situation with few scientific-type controls, which is why I allowed for the possibility that I could have gotten better results with Pizza #1 and Pizza #2 had I used the same overall protocol as I used with Pizza #3. At some point I will repeat the dough making protocol for at least Pizza #1 to see whether it fares better with the overall protocol I used with Pizza #3.

Based on what I have read, in Naples it is common to make adjustments to flour/water, yeast, and salt to adjust for seasonal variations. In the summer, it appears to be common to increase the amount of flour (i.e., reduce the hydration) and increase the amount of salt. In the winter, you would do the opposite. The yeast of choice in Naples is usually fresh yeast, which is typically proofed at a lower water temperature than other forms of yeast. So, at this time of year, with cooler temperatures, if IDY is substituted for fresh yeast and it is combined with the flour, as I did for Pizza #3, then the water temperature could be increased to around 120 degrees F in lieu of increasing the amount of yeast. That would have the same effect of increasing the rate of fermentation and should allow you to do the dough on a same-day basis. If I were to increase the hydration levels, I would add only enough additional water--maybe 1-2 % more to start--to get the dough to a soft, smooth consistency where it holds well together withour tears and physical separations in the dough. As for the salt, it could be reduced a bit to allow for slightly faster fermentation. This would be easy to do since it is at a rather high percent to begin with (2.3%) and reducing it to say, 2%, shouldn't materially change things from what I can tell.

I haven't tried using a poolish leavened with commercial yeast with a Caputo dough along the lines you mentioned, so I don't know how much time you would knock off of the usual total fermentation time. From what I recall from pizzanapoletana's posts, he typically uses a 12-hour initial fermentation followed by at least another 3 hours after dividing the initial dough batch into separate dough balls. He also makes adjustments to compensate for seasonal variations and also his personal schedule--that is, he controls the variables to conform to when he wants to use the dough. Of course, he uses a natural preferment, although he has mentioned a commercial yeast version also. The Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour has a W value of 240-260, which suggests a medium strength flour that should tolerate a fermentation time of 8-12 hours and longer depending on the values of the many variables discussed above. 

Like you, more than once I have thought about how nice it would be to be able to plug a bunch of numbers into an equation and have it tell you how long to ferment the dough. It's hard enough to do it with two variables, like yeast and room temperature, so you can imagine how difficult it would be to add another one or two variables, like salt and water temperature, especially if you don't hold some variable constant, like the temperature variable you mentioned. This is one of those cases where experience trumps science, and I actually like it that way to give a human factor to what I am doing.

You asked how long Pizza # 3 was on the bottom stone. I would say that it was around 3-4 minutes, as I previously mentioned. I didn't want it to be there too long because I was prepared to give up some bottom crust browning to keep the crust soft. I also contemplated that the broiler and superheated top stone/tiles together would finish the pizza without crisping up the crust or overcooking the toppings, which I put on cold to minimize that possibility.

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #258 on: February 28, 2006, 05:21:46 PM »
Pete-zza:
Thanks a ton!  Your insights are very helpful.  I hope my Caputo gets here this week.  My curiosity is definately peaked.  Since they tend to use fresh yeast in Naples, maybe I will try using that.  I have a harder time getting ahold of fresh yeast, and when I have used it I find that the activity of the yeast varies from batch to batch, further complicating things.  That is probably the main reason I switched to IDY - the consistancy factor.

I remember reading somewhere in the Patsy's re-engineering thread that using fresh yeast gives you a different 'mouth feel'.  I haven't used fresh yeast in a pizza in a long time, so I'd be curious to run a few experiments using fresh/idy in similarly forumulated doughs.


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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #259 on: February 28, 2006, 06:08:32 PM »
foodblogger,

While all of this is fresh on my mind, I intend over the next day or so to actually try making a pieguy same-day version. I will follow pieguy's formulation for making the basic dough but alter several variables (sequencing of ingredients, hydration, water temperature, and salt) to see if I can get something that is worthy. I will use the thickness factor and baking protocol I used for Pizza #3. Now you can see how this pizza thing can become an addiction :).

Peter
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 06:10:24 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #260 on: February 28, 2006, 07:53:22 PM »
Definately keep me posted pete.  My Caputo just got here, and I have to start somewhere so I will try to duplicate whatever you come up with for the same day. 

Perhaps you should start a new thread with your results/formula with a healthy nod back to this thread.  I think a same day procedure is a fairly significant departure from what they are doing at A16.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 08:06:36 PM by foodblogger »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #261 on: February 28, 2006, 08:37:47 PM »
foodblogger,

I already have a home for it, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.0.html. I had intended all along to try out a same-day pieguy dough but hadn't gotten around to it. I also plan to try a home version of a Neapolitan pizza dough put out by the VPN (Verace Pizza Napoletana) organization once I figure out the appropriate processing steps for a home oven. In due course I also plan to work on some same-day doughs using the Bel Aria 00 flour, which has a short fermentation cycle and works reasonably well for a same-day application.

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #262 on: March 23, 2006, 09:40:39 AM »
I have just the right amount of time to try Pieguy's 48 hour Caputo dough.  The original post was here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12512.html#msg12512

I have a couple questions for those of you who have tried his method.
1)  He mentions a 10 minute mix of the flour.  I am assuming that the flour was added gradually.  A knead is never mentioned.  Did you knead the dough after the 10 minute mix?
2)  He then lets the dough rise until tripled, punches down and folds.  He then puts the dough into the fridge, with an occasional punch and fold over the next 48 hours.  It then sounds like he divides the dough into individual balls and 'gently proofs for 6 hours'.  Did anyone do that additional proof?  Do you think he meant for that proof to be done in the fridge or at room temp?

Thanks in advance,
FB

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #263 on: March 23, 2006, 10:17:28 AM »
foodblogger,

My recollection is that I kneaded the dough after the 10-minute period--during which time the flour was added gradually as you surmised. I also read pieguy's instructions to mean a 6-hour "proof" at room temperature.

Apropos of your recent remarks on thin spots on the same-day Caputo thread, you might also be interested in the following observation from Reply 71 of this thread, in which pieguy noted:

On the subject of holes and thin spots in the pizza dough, how the final dough ball is rolled has much to do with the end result. You really have to be very careful to have a nice smooth top and, especially, a well sealed bottom with no hole. It's the hole in the bottom that results in a thin spot in your pizza.

In my experience, if the hydration is too low, it can be hard to pinch off and seal the dough at the bottom. I still haven't quite figured out how to prevent the dough from forming "cracks", however, they seem to be reduced when I use enough water to keep the dough a bit on the wet side.

Peter


« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 01:03:50 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #264 on: March 23, 2006, 10:50:22 AM »
Pete -
Thanks for the reply.  I saw that post by pieguy too and was planning on implementing it when I separate the dough into balls for the room temp rise.  I was thinking of starting with his recommended 57% and adding a little water at a time until the dough feels right but not sticky.  I'll keep track and post my final hydration.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #265 on: March 23, 2006, 01:01:19 PM »
Hello all. Here are some comments based on what I've learned in the interim. Periodic dough troubles have sparked adjustments, re-examination and refinements.

1. I still use the same recipe as written in my original post that pete-zza referenced below, although I no longer give the yeast 20 minutes to hydrate (I realized that the time elapsed while I finished weighing salt, oil, getting the mixer reasy, etc. was more than enough). The quantity of flour, however, is an approximation and I never weigh it. I start with 1.5 kg (one full, level flour scoop) per liter of water and add the remainder within the first five-six minutes of the mix . I'm more careful now than I used to be about keeping the dough on the wet side (as pete-zza recommends below). I think that it comes out best when, grabbing a fistful of dough in the bowl and then releasing, it sticks to my hand but then pulls away cleanly. I would descibe this sensation as "very tacky". I don't knead it after the mix.

2. The main problem I've had with the pizza balls other than excessively stiff dough (which, as pete-zza points out, is reluctant to form a smooth, sealed ball) is underproofed dough. This results in puffy, cranky pizza dough that is hard to handle. A nasty bout with this foe forced me to re-evaluate my process and seek consultation from a more skilled individual. As a result, I now use very warm water for the dough (105-110 F) and greatly increased the length of the room-temp rise after mixing. In both cases, the goal was to get the yeast to run through its vigorously active phase before it gets refrigerated for 48 hrs. The outcome is dough that is smooth, relaxed, easy to roll and very flavorful.

3. I also reduced the amount of "punching and folding" to which I treated the dough. The folding was originally an effort to strengthen the dough by periodically stretching and lengthening the gluten, as well as a way to keep the dough from overflowing its container. Realizing, however, that an aspect of my occassional problem was excessively strong dough, I now treat it much more gently, folding and flipping only twice: once during the initial rise and again before leaving it for the night.

3. Regarding foodblogger's question #2, the dough is portioned and rolled after the 48-hours under refrigeration, and I let those pizza balls proof at room temperature until they are roughly doubled in size (at which point they could be shaped into a pizza). I then put them back into the refrigerator, which slows down the development but keeps them in "a state of readiness" if you will. The pizza balls are cooked a minimum of 7 hours after being rolled (the VPN's rules dictate a six-hour minimum). At that point, 51 to 58 hours have elapsed since mixing.

Pete-zza: I'm not sure what you mean by "cracks" in the dough. Something other than holes in the bottom? A crust on top?

cheers,

PG


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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #266 on: March 23, 2006, 03:03:30 PM »
Pieguy -
Thanks a ton for the update.  I'll be trying your method out for pies this weekend.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #267 on: March 23, 2006, 03:24:20 PM »
pieguy,

I, too, thank you for the update.

Maybe "fissures" or "crevices" would have been a better term to use than "cracks". What I was trying to describe is the way that a dough ball can refuse to be sealed on the bottom if the dough is too dry. If I try to make the outer skin of the dough ball taut and pull the dough together at the bottom and pinch the edges together, they refuse to stay sealed. To give you a better idea of what I mean, I went into my kitchen and made a roughly 9-ounce hand kneaded dough ball using your most recent instructions. I intentionally used less water than called for by the formulation in order to produce an under-hydrated dough ball for demonstration purposes The first photo below shows what can happen when the dough is under hydrated. I tried to gather the edges of the ball and to pinch them like the tip of an onion and to tuck them under and seal the exposed edges. But, as you can see, they won’t seal properly no matter what you do to the dough ball and you end up with crevices in the dough ball. I kept the lighting down in the photo to more clearly show the crevices.

What I do when I have a dough ball that looks and behave like the one shown in the first photo below is to put a bit of water on one side of my butcher block and a scattering of flour on the other side. I then roll the dough ball in the water while kneading it at the same time to get the dough ball to absorb the water and make it wet on the outside. I don’t use more water than about a teaspoon at a time. Otherwise, the dough ball will just glide over the surface of the board. I keep doing this until the ball starts to assume a smoother shape and feel and the crevices start to disappear. I then roll the dough ball alternately between the water on the board and the flour on the board until all the water has been used up and the dough ball is smooth yet tacky. This is the point where I normally weigh the finished dough ball to see if is of the proper weight. If it is a bit shy, I add a bit more water and flour to the board and work them in as described above. The second photo below shows the final dough ball that emerged after applying these procedures to the dough ball shown in the first photo. It was completely round and completely smooth all over.

I might add that the above technique works for just about any dough, not just a Caputo dough. I mention this because sometimes novice pizza makers will often end up with an under-hydrated dough and think that that is normal and what was intended by the recipe they were following. Sometimes that will be true, as with cracker-type crusts, but in most cases the final dough ball should be smooth and without tears on the surface. And no crevices.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 06:02:58 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #268 on: March 23, 2006, 07:12:19 PM »
I'm a bit lost
 
I'm unsure about which recipe pieguy is still using that pete referenced below.  I'm thrown off a bit because a new topic branched off from this one.

Would someone be so kind as to provide a link? I've been trying to sort it out and am a bit frustrated.

Thanks  :)
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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #269 on: March 23, 2006, 09:18:39 PM »
Pete-zza: Although I realize that you exaggerated for effect, that ball of dough seems extremely dry. When I have dough that's a bit underhydrated and difficult to form, I'll see the ball slowly open up a bit, revealing holes on the inside, but it'll still stay at least partly closed. Usually, it won't even happen during the initial shaping but rather in the dough pan, slowly but steadily while I'm not looking. I've never had to deal with anything that radical.

I think that if you have to go through the complicated procedure that you explained for dry dough, you might as well start over. Even though you eventually manage to yield a smooth and uniform dough ball, it is still, fundamentally, an underhydrated dough. You may also be overworking the dough in the effort. I carefully avoid ever mixing a dough to which I need to add water. This invariably results in mediocre dough (the effect on the finished pizza is not necessarily noticable but it can be murderous to produce).

I gather from your posts that you adjust your recipes to yield single dough balls. Although you seem to be scrupulously precise, I think that you'd have better results by working in larger batches. Whenever I make a small batch of dough, anywhere from a quarter to a third of what I normally make, despite using the same recipe, ingredients and procedure, it doesn't come out as nice as my normal batch of dough. I think that it has to do with how the dough develops: how long it ferments, how long it stays warm, how quickly it cools down, and other mysterious yeast phenomena. A large mass of dough is relatively insulated from environmental variation by simple reason of its volume and, all things being equal, tends to absorb variations in ingredients more easily. A 9 ounce balls of dough is far more susceptible to even minute variations in temperature and ingredients (like the moisture content of your flour, for instance). So for all of your experiments, I would mix enough dough for 8-10 pizzas. This gives you enough material to try different proofing times and temperatures, as well as hone your rolling and stretching technique, but most importantly, I'm confident that it will be a more accurate representation of the dough that you were aiming to produce.


Lydia: The recipe that we are discussing is as follows:

(makes enough dough for ten pizzas)
1 liter of water (105-110 F)
5 grams IDY
30 grams olive oil
40 grams salt
1.75 kg Caputo )) pizzeria flour (approximate)

Mix the first four ingredients in the order listed. Put in mixer, add flour and mix for 8-10 minutes. Proof at room temp for 4-8 hours (depend on your room temp). Refrigerate for two nights, roll on the second morning, proof at room temp for 4-8 hours (ditto) until the dough has developed to the point that it is workable.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #270 on: March 23, 2006, 09:54:58 PM »
Thank you so very much.
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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #271 on: March 24, 2006, 01:20:24 AM »
pieguy,

Pizzanapoletana (Marco) admonished me some time ago about making only single dough balls. He suggested that I make a larger quantity and use the leftover to make rolls or bread or something like that. Even though I had no reason to doubt Marco, it was just that I couldn't use up the large volume. At the time, also, the Caputo Pizzeria flour was hard to come by and I was trying to preserve every last speck of it and use it only for pizzas. For better or worse, the single-pizza approach has become my standard operating procedure--one I use for all types of pizzas.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 24, 2006, 02:38:00 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #272 on: March 24, 2006, 03:37:28 AM »
I hesitate to ask but... can we freeze the extra dough balls, or is that a taboo?  Anyone tried freezing them yet?
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #273 on: March 24, 2006, 09:05:53 AM »
I made up the dough last night.  I added 80% of the flour during the mix and then added about a tablespoon at a time until the dough matched pieguy's description:

Quote
I think that it comes out best when, grabbing a fistful of dough in the bowl and then releasing, it sticks to my hand but then pulls away cleanly. I would descibe this sensation as "very tacky".

My final hydration came out at 58.9%.  I then let the dough rise until tripled in size.  It took about 3 hours at my room temp of 65 degrees.  I'll post full details of what happened when I report the results.

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #274 on: March 27, 2006, 04:47:24 PM »
I made a batch of pieguy dough this weekend.  Here are some details of what I did -

Pieguy’s A16 48 Hour Fridge Rise Caputo Dough

Formula
Caputo 00 pizzeria flour    100%
Water (105-110 degrees)   57%
Sea Salt         2.3%
Olive Oil         1.7%
IDY            0.29%

A 14 inch pizza with a thickness factor of 0.12 should have a dough ball that weighs 523 grams.  The total percentage for this recipe is 161.29

Recipe for 2 dough balls, 14 inch size, TF 0.12

Flour   649 g
Water   370 g
Salt   15 g
Oil   11 g
IDY   2 g

Processing
1)   Dissolve yeast in water.  While it is dissolving weigh out the rest of the ingredients.  Add olive oil. 
2)   Add 80% of the flour while mixing over 5 minutes.  Add the salt when about 40% of the flour is in.  At the 5 minute mark feel the dough.  It should be very tacky, stick to your hand but then release.  If it is too wet add a little more flour.  Mix for a total of 10 minutes.
3)   At the end of the mixing form the dough into a ball and place into a lightly oiled bowl.  Cover with plastic wrap and allow it to rise until tripled in size.
4)   Punch dough down and fold it in thirds like folding a letter.  Turn the dough upside down so that the folds are on the bottom.  Put into bowl and cover with plastic wrap.
5)   Refrigerate dough for 48 hours.  During this time monitor the dough.  When the dough doubles in size repeat the punching down and folding detailed in step 4.  It will be punched down only once during the fridge rise.
6)   At the end of refrigeration divide the dough into equal sized balls.  Be very careful shaping the balls so that there is a smooth top.  Seal the bottom of the dough ball very well so that there is no hole.
7)   Proof individual dough balls at room temperature until doubled in size.  When doubled in size place in the fridge until ready to use.  From the time you form the dough balls until the time you use them should be a minimum of 6 hours.
8)   Shape and bake.


My final hydration came out at 58.9%.  I made one cheese pizza and I decided to go crazy and see how well the dough would perform as a Sicilian style.  Here is a photo of the cheese pizza.