Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 155531 times)

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Offline abatardi

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #300 on: May 16, 2007, 03:48:33 PM »
Has anyone been to A16 since Christophe left?  Is the pizza still good?  I procrastinated and never actually went when he was there and was thinking about going this weekend. 

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Offline Wallman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #301 on: May 16, 2007, 08:14:50 PM »
I ate there last summer  a few months after Nate Appleman had taken over and it was very good, although I thought Pizziaolo in Oakland was a bit better. I have reviews of both in the Restaurant Review thread. I would note that chef Nate Appleman was a James Beard finalist for this year.  If you are in SFO I'd recommend both.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 08:19:50 PM by Wallman »

Offline pbivona

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #302 on: April 24, 2008, 11:58:12 AM »
Hey i just wanted to say that this site is great for information on dough and pizza, oils and much much more. I appreciate everyone sharing they're secrets to a great pizza. Well i wanted to respond to "Giotto" because he had mentioned using "Fratelli cucchiara" Primus Gentile Extra Virgin Olive Oil which is a fantastic extra virgin oil. I Know Giuseppe Cucchiara personally, him and my father both are born in sciacca, Sicily and now my father imports about a container a year here in New York. The response from the Gentile and Novello are phenominal and the biggest pizzeria's in the city are using it such as "Italian Village, Buona Sera and many many more. I have a website if anyone is interested, i charge $15 and i take care of shipping costs to here in the New York area. Visit the website at sanmichele.us  Thank you very much .

Paul
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #303 on: June 13, 2008, 07:30:28 PM »
Here's an interesting video about A16, which gives you a more detailed and thorough look behind the scenes:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/category?blogid=26&cat=1398

Scroll down about half way. It's the seventh video.

Mike
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 07:33:01 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline jeff v

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #304 on: June 16, 2008, 03:50:38 PM »
Thanks for the links Essen1!

I love watching them, and getting ideas.

Jeff
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Offline zinman

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #305 on: July 01, 2008, 12:55:33 PM »
A 16 is still marvelous, and the good news is they will be coming out with a cookbook in September.  It is available as a pre order on amazon.com.  I hope it has the pizza dough recipe.  They have also opened up a restaurant featuring food from Rome, on Fillmore St. in SF.  No pizza oven, but great food.  I pity you poor guys who don't live nearby.

steve

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #306 on: July 01, 2008, 01:49:31 PM »
A 16 is still marvelous, and the good news is they will be coming out with a cookbook in September.  It is available as a pre order on amazon.com.  I hope it has the pizza dough recipe.  They have also opened up a restaurant featuring food from Rome, on Fillmore St. in SF.  No pizza oven, but great food.  I pity you poor guys who don't live nearby.

steve
Cost of living in SF is too damn high. I also believe that I can cook/bake just about anything that you can get in most restaurants and be pretty happy with the results.

Do they have a home baked Sourdough Ciabatta Fluffernutter on the menu? Nope did not think so, that was breakfast today here in Portland - I pity those that can't have that!

LOL - all in good fun

PNW

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #307 on: July 03, 2008, 01:39:48 AM »
PNW,

Fluff 'er nutt 'er??? For breakfast? I think you seriously need to get out more.  ;D

Believe it or not, we do have it here on the menu once awhile, just not that often. And thank God, it's never been the "sourdough" version!

Mike
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 01:45:03 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline jjerrier2450

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #308 on: September 05, 2008, 09:17:23 PM »
I just picked up the A16 Food & Wine cookbook...I will go through it tonight, but the pictures are gorgeous.  There is a recipe for Neapolitan-style dough in the book (warm water, envelope of yeast, olive oil, salt, 00 flour) - mix, refrigerate over night, punch down, cover and let rise for 4-24 hours.  They have some other great recipes in there too...

More details later...I may try to make the dough and see how it does in or commercial ovens...

Jay


Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #309 on: September 07, 2008, 01:01:03 AM »
JJerrier,

If you could post the quantities for the Neapolitan dough formula that would be awesome.

Thanks in advance, bro.
Mike

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Offline jjerrier2450

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #310 on: September 07, 2008, 05:03:53 PM »
Here is what the book says:

- 1/4 tsp Active Dry Yeast
- 1 1/2 cups warm water (100-105)
- 2 tsp extra virgin olive oil
- 2 tsp salt
- 4 cups 00 flour or all purpose flour

Doesn't give any weights as it is definitely designed for the home baker.

Mix on low for 2 mins
Mix on med-low for 10 mins
Cover with damp towel for 5 mins
Mix on med-low for 10 mins

Put dough in oiled bowl, cover with plastic, refrigerate overnight

Next day, punch down dough and return to fridge for 4-24 hours

I have not tried to make it yet...the pics in the book are all gorgeous.

Jay

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #311 on: September 07, 2008, 05:53:33 PM »
Jay,

I converted it into weight and noticed the unusually high hydration level:

397gr flour    (100%)
355gr water  (89%)
1.5gr yeast   (0.3%)
8gr Olive Oil  (2%)
10gr salt       (2.5%)

Unless my calculation is off, 89% of hydration is awfully high. All the other measurements/numbers seem alright, though.
Mike

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Offline November

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #312 on: September 07, 2008, 06:08:24 PM »
Jay,

I converted it into weight and noticed the unusually high hydration level:

397gr flour    (100%)
355gr water  (89%)
1.5gr yeast   (0.3%)
8gr Olive Oil  (2%)
10gr salt       (2.5%)

Unless my calculation is off, 89% of hydration is awfully high. All the other measurements/numbers seem alright, though.

Mike,

I don't how you came about 397 g of flour, but if the flour is Caputo 00 Extra Blu flour, the weight would be approximately 549 g.

- red.november

EDIT: While we're at it, the oil should be about 9 g, not 8 g.  What process did you use to convert the values?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 06:14:13 PM by November »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #313 on: September 07, 2008, 06:22:23 PM »
RN,

Since I didn't have the link to your conversion table, I used my regular conversion chart. There it said that 4 cups of US all-purpose flour would be 397gr.

549gr. makes more sense than 397gr. That would bring the hydration level down to roughly 65%, which would be correct, I guess.

I think I'll toss my conversion chart out the window  ;D
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #314 on: September 07, 2008, 06:31:41 PM »
RN,

Since I didn't have the link to your conversion table, I used my regular conversion chart.

Mike,

See http://foodsim.toastguard.com/.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 04:57:53 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #315 on: September 07, 2008, 08:35:10 PM »
Thanks, Peter.

I bookmarked it.
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #316 on: September 11, 2008, 12:49:18 PM »
Here is what the book says:

- 1/4 tsp Active Dry Yeast
- 1 1/2 cups warm water (100-105)
- 2 tsp extra virgin olive oil
- 2 tsp salt
- 4 cups 00 flour or all purpose flour

Jay,

Can you clarify the amount of yeast in the recipe you posted? In an earlier post, you said that the recipe calls for an envelope of yeast. A typical envelope of yeast weighs 1/4 ounce. At four cups of flour, 1/4 teaspoon of ADY would come to between about 0.17-0.19% of the weight of flour, depending on the flour used and how it is measured out.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 02:36:47 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline jeff v

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #317 on: September 11, 2008, 11:48:02 PM »
Peter,

I own the book, and the recipe calls for 1/4 tsp ADY.


Jeff
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #318 on: September 12, 2008, 12:01:44 AM »
I don't think A16 will completely give out their famous dough recipe just like that.

It might have been tweaked for home use.

Mike

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Offline jeff v

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #319 on: September 12, 2008, 09:55:03 AM »
I don't think A16 will completely give out their famous dough recipe just like that.

It might have been tweaked for home use.



I'm pretty positive about that.
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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #320 on: September 12, 2008, 10:23:35 AM »
Mike,

jeff V is correct about the amount of ADY. I originally thought that 1/4 ounce of yeast (a full packet) was intended for the A16 recipe but that seemed far too much for the amount of flour (4 cups) called for in the recipe. So, yesterday, while awaiting a reply from Jay, I went to amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com/A16-Food-Wine-Nate-Appleman/dp/1580089070/?tag=pizzamaking-20 and used the "Inside this Book" search feature on that page. I used the keyword "yeast" for search purposes and found the entire A16 dough recipe and instructions (at page 117). To the authors' credit, they specify 1/4 teaspoon of ADY, not a much larger quantity that is usually recommended for home pizza makers to ensure success with the rise of the dough. As it turns out, the recipe is not much different than the recipe that was given to the forum some time ago by member pieguy, as I restated it at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12531.html#msg12531. I do not know how much 4 cups of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour weighs, or what measurement method the authors use to measure out the flour volumetrically, but using 4 cups of the Caputo 00 Extra Blu flour measured out textbook style, it appears that pieguy's recipe uses a bit more yeast percentage-wise than the A16 recipe. However, if one were to use ADY instead of IDY and adjust the amount of yeast in pieguy's recipe for a three-day fermentation rather than the two-day fermentation originally recited by pieguy, the two recipes would be even closer.

The biggest difference between the two recipes that I can see is in the hydration. I personally believe that 1 1/2 cups of water for 4 cups of flour is too much for a home oven application (using the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour for my calculations). Even the authors suggest using less water (and more oil) to those not used to handling pizza dough. The A16 recipe also indicates that the amount of dough made using that recipe produces four dough balls for making pizzas that are 10"-12" in diameter. Based on my experience, I believe that users with standard home ovens should use the 10" size, which will produce a thicker crust that works better in a home oven. I would also recommend a hydration percent that is closer to that recommended by pieguy. Otherwise, there may be a tendency to bake the pizza too long to get decent crust browning and end up with a more cracker-like crust. However, the only way to tell for sure is for someone to try the A16 recipe and report back on the results. It would also help in this regard to know how much 4 cups of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour actually weighs, using the textbook method of flour measurement as defined, for example, at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397. Knowing the answer to that question, we should be able to come up with a baker's percent version of the A16 recipe for further evaluation. When I do flour weighings, I usually do about a dozen or more individual weighings (e.g., using a standard metal one-cup straight-sided measuring cup) and average out the weights.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #321 on: September 12, 2008, 04:06:12 PM »
Peter,

I didn't question whether Jeff's amount of yeast was accurate. He posted what the books said, or says. What I meant was that A16 probably modified the recipe and perhaps published a stripped-down version of their original formula because as you know, formulas and recipes from great pizza joints are sometimes closely guarded and not available to the public.

Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #322 on: September 12, 2008, 04:34:42 PM »
Mike,

Most commercial recipes that are converted in cookbooks for home use tend to call for a lot more yeast than is actually used in the commercial application. This is sometimes done to disguise the original recipe but it is also often done to be sure that the home pizza maker will succeed with the recipe, especially in terms of getting a dough that rises well and quickly. The authors of the A16 book did not dramatically increase the amount of yeast for purposes of the cookbook. This leads me to believe that the recipe in the A16 cookbook is either the one actually used by A16, but scaled down to a small dough batch size, or a version that is pretty close to the original. Moreover, the high hydration of the book's dough formulation is consistent with the use of a very high temperature oven, as is apparently used in the A16 restaurant itself. I do not personally think that using all-purpose flour in the recipe instead of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour will produce results comparable to the 00 flour, but that is another cookbook change that authors often engage in when they feel that users are unlikely to have access to or seek out 00 flour. Peter Reinhart did the same thing with his pizza cookbook, American Pie, and Pamela Sheldon Johns came up with an all-purpose/pastry flour blend for her Neapolitan style pizza dough in her cookbook Pizza Napoletana! Both authors were intimately familiar with the 00 flour when they wrote their books.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #323 on: September 12, 2008, 06:39:46 PM »
If your hunch proves to be right, why didn't they also adjust the hydration at the same time, since it's obviously intended for home use?  ???
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #324 on: September 12, 2008, 07:17:32 PM »
If your hunch proves to be right, why didn't they also adjust the hydration at the same time, since it's obviously intended for home use?  ???

Mike,

As users of a very high temperature oven, they perhaps didn't/don't know that the high hydrations will not work well in a standard home oven environment. Until pizzanapoletana (Marco) told us (e.g., at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg11838/topicseen.html#msg11838), the members of the forum were generally unaware of the effects of using a high hydration 00 dough in a home oven setting.  Marco also instructed us to use some oil in the dough (e.g., see Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8702.html#msg8702). The combination of using a modest hydration and some oil in the dough led to the achievement for many of a reasonably decent Neapolitan style pizza in a standard home oven. I also found that using a skin with some thickness to it helped produce an even better finished product. These are the kinds of things you learn in a home oven environment rather than in a very high temperature commercial oven environment.

Peter