help with room temp rise doughs

[scott r]

I just did some experimenting with kasl, a preferment,  a 19 hour room temp rise, a 24, and a 48 hour fridge rise.  It was really fun to see the differences in these doughs.  What I did find is that one of my 19 hour room temp doughs ran out of leavening power and ended up like a rubber boot.  The other room temp rise dough was probably my favorite one of the four types I made (ADY or not ADY fridge, ADY or not ADY room temp rise).  I really want to experiment more with the room temp technique, but I know it can be tricky.  Jeff V mentioned that if a dough has doubled in size it has over risen, and I have waited too long.  I think I have seen Peter say that he  has let room temp doughs double, and maybe even triple, and they have worked out fine.  Is there a trick to this?  What is the best amount of rise that I should be looking for before I form the pizza, or are there other clues that will tell me when the dough is done?

The room temp dough I really liked did not rise much at all, so with that I can see where Jeff is coming from.  One thing is for sure, the room temp doughs had WAY more flavor than any of the fridge rise doughs, almost too much. After these experiments I have a feeling that just like you have found, using less starter and a long room temp rise is going to be the key to what I am looking for.  Does anyone have any tips, or general guidelines on how to prepare a room temp rise dough that differ from a fridge rise dough?
 
I have been wondering  about the merits of making an inverse proofing box.  I would probably get a small dorm fridge and set it (if I can get it to stay this high) to somewhere around 60 degrees.  My apartment is already in the 75 to 80 degree range and summer isn't even here yet!  Having said that, I did notice that when I was at Grimaldes recently they had their dough proofing fairly close to the coal oven where it must have been pretty warm.  Their dough was amazing the day I was there.  Has anyone found an optimal temp for a room temp rise?  I have seen the VPN and Marco recommend around 65 to 75 if I remember correctly.  Maybe I am worrying about this aspect too much, and it is better to just go with whatever temp the room happens to be, then just form the pizzas when the dough has reached a certain amount of rise.  Thoughts?

[PizzaSuperFreak]

i'm with you.

i've always felt that unless i used about a 2+ day rise in the fridge, i didn't understand what all the big whoop was about.

on the other hand, i can quite often get a good rise out of using my home-made proofer: an inverted rubbermaid bin (ala home depot) with a 15 watt light bulb stuck through the top. i typically have to punch it down once or twice in the course of a day, but i still get decent flavor from it.

i'm interested in following this one with ya. hopefully i'll have time to do some experimentation as well.

good luck!

[dinks]

SCOTT R:
  Good Afternoon my friend. I would like to try and answer your inquires if I may. I will begin with your concern in your last paragraph. "What Is The Best Temp. For a Fermentation??? You answered your own question, the best temp. is the room temp. where you mixed the dough in.
  Scott, you asked about fermentation. Amongst prof. bread bakers a doubling of a dough does not neccessay   mean that a fermentation has taken place.nor has it taken place because 1 hour has past by. Fermentation has taken place when the dough ceases to rise.It can be said that the power of the yeast has been spent & fermentation has taken place. Scott while the dough is rising  notice that if you were to place your index finger in the center it will resist your poking, you will not get very far down. The yeast has not completed it's chemical reaction. When your finger penetrates into the dough mass about 1 1/2-2 inches easily & when you remove your finger & the dough leaves a void It's time. Fermentation has taken place. Scott, I hope this information has provided some insight into your inquires. Good luck & have a nice day my friend.
  ~DINKS.
   

[Pete-zza]

Scott,

You raise some very good questions. Unfortunately, the answers are not quite as simple because there are a lot of crosscurrents of concepts and principles that have to be sorted out and understood to answer your questions more fully. But let me say that because a dough doubles does not necessarily mean that you have waited too long. What will govern whether you have gone too long is not whether the dough has doubled or tripled, but rather, as DINKS points out, whether fermentation has ceased. For some recipes, undoubtedly a doubling of the dough can be a bad sign, and this may well be true for Varasano's particular dough, but for many other doughs, especially those that use a lot of yeast and warm water/dough temperatures--which are most often room temperature, same-day doughs--doubling or tripling of the dough can be quite normal. In fact, I would venture to say that the bulk of pizza dough recipes you will find in cookbooks and elsewhere are for same-day doughs with one or more doublings of the volume of the dough. These recipes tend to be so popular because most people don't want to fuss around with overnight retardation or doing the other types of things that many of us at this forum consider to be almost mandatory for even a nominally acceptable dough.

What will usually govern how a dough will rise and how fast the fermentation will proceed is the amount of yeast and the temperature of the dough. It doesn't matter whether the dough is to be at room temperature or retarded in the refrigerator. If I use a lot of yeast and make no effort to adjust the water temperature (to lower it) or to control the heat buildup in the dough due to machine kneading, it will expand quickly even in the refrigerator--possibly for hours before the dough cools down again--because these factors speed up the fermentation process. Many pizza operators go to great lengths to control the dough temperature for retarded doughs for fear that the dough balls will "blow" while in the cooler and be unusable the next day. 

It is not always easy to tell when a dough is ready to be used. For some doughs, especially those that use a lot of yeast and where a lot of rise is expected, it is easy, and DINKS' recommendation to stick your finger in the dough to see if the depression remains or not works reasonably well. But for doughs that use a natural preferment, particularly one that is weak or immature, or a retarded dough that is a water temperature-controlled, low-yeast dough, it can be harder to tell because the dough may rise little, at least to the naked eye. As an example, a typical Lehmann NY style, low-yeast, retarded dough, or even one like I made yesterday that used only a natural preferment for leavening purposes, often rises little while in the refrigerator. And poking your finger into the dough may not be an entirely reliable test. In cases like this, you have to learn what the natural life cycle of the dough is, and that there is a start point and an end point, and how long the time is in between before the dough overferments and is no longer a functional dough. You also have to take account in the calculus what the effects are on the lifespan of the dough of room temperature changes from one day to the next, or broader seasonal changes (e.g., summer versus winter). That calculus can even take into account other things you may do to the dough, such as using small or large amounts of salt and using low or high hydration levels. Using a small amount of salt or high hydration levels will accelerate the fermentation process, and vice versa. These effects will usually be less than the effects of yeast and temperature, but they shouldn't just be ignored as being inconsequential.

So, I think the main points to keep in mind are to understand that all doughs have a natural life cycle, with a beginning and an end, and that that life cycle is affected by the amounts and types of yeast used (commercial and natural), water temperature, room/refrigerator temperature, dough temperature (which is influenced by both water and room temperature and machine friction temperature), salt levels and hydration levels. The number, extent and direction of these factors that coexist at any one time will dictate the life cycle of the dough and its functional lifespan. Once you master these concepts and principles, you will be able to look at just about any dough recipe and be able to reasonably predict how the dough will behave and what its life cycle and lifespan are likely to be. Beyond that, it is experience, experience and experience, and vice versa .

Peter

[Artale]

Peter,

Beautifully described!  well said.

I read many posts on this forum to further expand my pizza making
skills and experience really is the best teacher but with the help
of all on this forum we can expedite that process by sharing knowledge.

This is precisely what is happening to me in my pizza kitchen. I am finding out as you
mention that each condition like in a laboratory is unique unto itself
and the parameters and ingidents also decitate the out come. So for the
newer pizza makers out there my belief is not to experiment until you can
create a consistancy from pie to pie. I beleive that will help the operator
understand his parameters and the feel of the dough making and the
reaction of the dough after its created. Consistancy takes repetition and
using exact parameters has been key to my learning curve.

The observation of the post cycle will educate the operator to when is the best
time to use the dough for making pizza by his expereince through repetition.
I know in the kneading process i no longer dont make the dough I feel the dough the
process has in some ways become more art form to me than scientific.
In my process i am using a bread machine and had to learn to use it
with great ability. I have manipulated my bread machine to the point where I
know exactly what it does every time and thats a good thing because
of the consistancy factor. The only variable is me!!  The machine now every time
will act the same.  My cover is alway left open to let heat escape because on
my machine has a 15min warm up cycle which i by pass by letting the machine
run with nothing in it at 13 min i pour water in the machine and then add
salt, olive oil and then as soon as the machine start to knead at slow speed i add
2/3 part flour slowly then i add in the IDY which in my case is a small amount
.25 % of the total volume of flour i usually make 10 oz of flour and 6 oz of water
60% hydration than after all is mixed together usually this takes 2 min i shut
the machine and let it rest for 15 min at that point since there is a 15 warm up
(because i shut the machine down) so after the 15 min rest the machine gets
turned on for the 15 warm up with the cover always open this will keep the
mix from getting warm and with a total rest period of 30min the machine starts
again and i add the remainder of the flour very slowly until i feel that the dough is
where it should be. That may mean not using all the flour or if need be i keep
a little flour on the side in case i have to add a pinch or so more.
After its done i place in a lighty oiled bowl and let sit on the counter for 20min
then it goes into a plastic bag for slow cold rise 24 to 36 hours for
use. Usually i make the dough friday nite and make pizza sunday for lunch time.
I also have found that keeping the motz cheese in the fridge cold before using
is better than at room temp.  The cheese takes longer to melt and that is
a good thing because with other attemps using room temp cheese the cheese
melts to quick and the pie has to still cook longer.

As mentioned in a previous post my good  results because of consistancy are becoming
extemely noticable and i wish that i had a digital camera to post the pics.
I would love to share my product with the forum and my only reason to share
my findings is to pay back this fine community of people so that a new person
can be helped by any info just as i have been helped!