Author Topic: Peter Reinhartís Country Pizza Dough & Classic Pizza Dough, Neo-Neapolitan Style  (Read 34731 times)

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Online norma427

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I mixed doughs yesterday for Peter Reinhartís Country Pizza Dough & Classic Pizza Dough, Neo-Neapolitan Style.  These are pictures of the dough this morning.  I am going to bake both of these doughs into pizzas later on this afternoon or this evening.  I really donít know, but both of the doughs look like they might overferment. Both doughs have more than doubled already. I never made any other pizza doughs except for the Pizzarium thread with so much oil added. 

Pictures of both doughs top and bottom this morning.

Norma
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Offline dmaxdmax

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The Neo-Nea is the dough that fazzari (?) waxes rhapsodic about in the NY forum -- or a close cousin.  the last time I made it I too had explosive growth (my thread was "dough or glop") but it was ok though not as good as when I used a mixer rather than stretch and fold.  I asked P.R. about it at a class last weekend and he suggested a little more initial mixing, cooler water and straight into the fridge.

When I've made it in a mixer it was fantastic and I'll give stretch and fold another shot, paying particular attention to measuring yeast.

Haven't tried the country dough -- please report!
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Online norma427

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The Neo-Nea is the dough that fazzari (?) waxes rhapsodic about in the NY forum -- or a close cousin.  the last time I made it I too had explosive growth (my thread was "dough or glop") but it was ok though not as good as when I used a mixer rather than stretch and fold.  I asked P.R. about it at a class last weekend and he suggested a little more initial mixing, cooler water and straight into the fridge.

When I've made it in a mixer it was fantastic and I'll give stretch and fold another shot, paying particular attention to measuring yeast.

Haven't tried the country dough -- please report!

dmaxdmax,

I read the thread ďdough or glopĒ.  I never tried any of Peter Reinhartís formulas out, so I thought I would give both of them a try.  I did use my Kitchen Aid mixer (first with the paddle attachment) to mix both of the doughs and both of the final doughs were only 74 degrees F.  I think the amount of yeast used is too much, but will find out.  I did do a few stretch and folds before putting the dough into the refrigerator. 

That is interesting what Peter Reinhart told you at class about mixing longer and then straight into the refrigerator.  I will be looking forward to when you try the formula again.

I will report on both formulas after the bakes, whether good or bad.

Norma
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Offline forzaroma

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I had the opposite happen to me my dough was tougher and didnt develop enough gluten. I used the nee eone from American pie.

Online norma427

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I had the opposite happen to me my dough was tougher and didnt develop enough gluten. I used the nee eone from American pie.

forzaroma,

Did you use a paddle attachment first?  I didn't seem to have any problems with forming the gluten.  I used Better for Bread Flour in the one dough and for the Country Dough I used KABF. KAAP, and KAWW.

I used this formula, but am only making one pizza. I used IDY and honey in the formula. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12866.msg124788.html#msg124788

The dough was sticky at first, but then became okay.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Norma,

My observation of Peter Reinhart's pizza dough recipes in general is that he seems to favor high hydration doughs and doughs that can do double duty--as same day doughs or multi-day cold fermented doughs. I believe the high hydration part comes from Peter's bread experience. However, where I part company with Peter is that I don't use one amount of yeast for same day and multi-day doughs. Some people apparently are able to make that work, judging from what I have read on the forum, but my concern has always been that using the same amount of yeast for the double duty mentioned above might lead to excessive fermentation of the longer term (several days) doughs. So, my practice is to use different amounts of yeast for the two dough fermentation periods. However, that said, I can understand how it is easier in a recipe book--possibly to satisfy the book publishers--to have just one dough recipe rather than two, even if the fermentation isn't optimum for both fermentation periods. That is perhaps why Peter has had to tell people how to modify his recipe to achieve particular desired results that don't naturally flow from using his recipes and instructions as presented in his writings.

Peter

Offline forzaroma

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In the book I don't believe he said to use the paddle.

Online norma427

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Norma,

My observation of Peter Reinhart's pizza dough recipes in general is that he seems to favor high hydration doughs and doughs that can do double duty--as same day doughs or multi-day cold fermented doughs. I believe the high hydration part comes from Peter's bread experience. However, where I part company with Peter is that I don't use one amount of yeast for same day and multi-day doughs. Some people apparently are able to make that work, judging from what I have read on the forum, but my concern has always been that using the same amount of yeast for the double duty mentioned above might lead to excessive fermentation of the longer term (several days) doughs. So, my practice is to use different amounts of yeast for the two dough fermentation periods. However, that said, I can understand how it is easier in a recipe book--possibly to satisfy the book publishers--to have just one dough recipe rather than two, even if the fermentation isn't optimum for both fermentation periods. That is perhaps why Peter has had to tell people how to modify his recipe to achieve particular desired results that don't naturally flow from using his recipes and instructions as presented in his writings.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand since Peter Reinhart is from the bread side he prefers high hydration doughs, but I didnít understand the high oil also.  I couldnít understand when I read how much yeast was to be used how the dough could go possibly more than one day, but I thought I would give it a try as given in the formula.  If I was going to let this dough ferment for more than one day, I would have used less yeast. 

I can also understand that since Peter Reinhart had to give just one formula, it probably was for his book publishers  It is easy to understand that someone that never made that many doughs could get much different results with these formulas. I can see that this recipe would need to be modified for more than a one day cold ferment.

I also would part ways, like you, if I had to judge from the formula what I have learned so far about how fast different amounts of yeast used in formulas can ferment dough.  I thought the dough would ferment too fast.

Norma
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Online norma427

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In the book I don't believe he said to use the paddle.

forzaroma,

This is where I read the instructions for making the dough.  It said the dough can be mixed by hand with a big spoon or use the paddle attachment, not the dough hook.

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/92-classic-pizza-dough-neo-neapolitan-style.html

Norma

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Online norma427

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The Country Dough fermented more than the Classic Pizza Dough, Neo-Neapolitan before the bake, but I donít know why.  Both doughs were easy to open. Both pizzas were made early this evening.  They both turned out great, but look what they were baked in.  ;D  The rim of the crusts were nice and fluffy and the  bottom crusts were great.

Pictures below

Norma
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Online norma427

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more pictures

Norma
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Online norma427

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after picture jpg 7240, starting at jpg 7252 the pizza is the Country Dough

Norma
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Online norma427

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more pictures..Thanks Steve (Ev) for letting me bake my Peter Reinhart doughs in your WFO!   ;D

Norma
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Offline pizzard

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 All I can say is...Norma, I wish I was your best friend.  I always have good wine on hand. :D

Online Pete-zza

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Norma,

Both pizzas turned out great. Can you tell me which recipe you used to make the Country Pizza? I assume the Classic Pizza recipe came from the Forno Bravo Reinhart blog at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/92-classic-pizza-dough-neo-neapolitan-style.html. Is that correct?

Peter

Online norma427

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All I can say is...Norma, I wish I was your best friend.  I always have good wine on hand. :D

pizzard,

You can be my best friend!  You might want to be Steve's (Ev) best friend too.  He is the person with the WFO.   ;D  I only made the dough. I never even tasted good wine.  :o I did have a few dark beers tonight though, thanks to Steve and his friend.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Norma
I think your pizzas look fabulous!!!!!  I've experimented quite a bit with these pizzas and I prefer the dough without the oil.  Would you agree with me that the real beauty of these are their simplicity!!

John

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Norma,

Both pizzas turned out great. Can you tell me which recipe you used to make the Country Pizza? I assume the Classic Pizza recipe came from the Forno Bravo Reinhart blog at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/92-classic-pizza-dough-neo-neapolitan-style.html. Is that correct?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying both pizzas turned out great.  A WFO does a lot in making a great pizza. The crumb just melted in my mouth and was so soft.  I knew I was going to Steve's home tonight so I wanted to try a different kind of dough.  I really think both of these doughs made great pizzas.  I used the same formula you set-forth at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12866.msg124788.html#msg124788 with IDY and honey and for the Classic Pizza Dough, Neo-Neapolitan Style and for the Country Dough.  I used Better for Bread flour for the Classic Pizza Dough and I used KABF, KAAP, and KAWW in the Country dough.  I made dough for 14" pizzas for both.  If you want me to post the formula I used, I can scan it into my printer and post it.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Norma
I think your pizzas look fabulous!!!!!  I've experimented quite a bit with these pizzas and I prefer the dough without the oil.  Would you agree with me that the real beauty of these are their simplicity!!

John

John,

Thanks for saying the pizzas look fabulous.   :)  I wonder how these pizzas would have been without the oil.  I might have to try that the next time.  I do agree with you that the real beauty was these doughs were simple to make and also didn't need any starters and were ready in one day.   ;D
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Norma,

In addition to favoring high hydration values, for some reason Peter Reinhart is also fond of using a lot of sugar/honey in his doughs, along with fair amounts of oil as you noted. However, the oil usage in the Country and Classic dough recipes is not much above the upper limit for oil (about 3%) that I am used to seeing in NY style dough formulations. Also, as Peter Reinhart notes, the oil and sugar/honey in his Classic recipe are optional. That would be more typical of what the old NYC pizza masters, with their very high temperature ovens, would have done (that is, not use sugar/honey or oil).

I de-confused myself on the Country dough recipe. I found it by doing a Google search. The recipe is at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/71-country-pizza-dough.html. As can be seen there, the Country recipe is similar to the Classic recipe except that it also includes whole wheat flour and some of the ingredient quantities are adjusted to reflect the use of the whole wheat flour. It occurs to me that some members might like to see the specific Country dough formulation you used if you don't mind posting it.

You will also note that I went back and modified my post at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12866.msg124788.html#msg124788 to more accurately reflect the instructions given by Peter Reinhart for the Classic recipe and to note that the oil and honey are optional (as is the sugar) and that the amount of water should be reduced if oil and/or honey are used. Peter does not say how to do this so I gave my suggested hydration values when oil and/or honey are used.

Peter