Author Topic: poolish for neapolitan...  (Read 10365 times)

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Offline thezaman

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 10:08:47 PM »
i think that jeffery hamelman covers this subject in his book bread . looks like pizza blogger might have touched on it above.peter thanks for your formulation.


Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 05:19:23 AM »
Carnaval is going to be TESTING time for this dough !!! hahahahaa !!!
im not a big fan of the event here, Sao Paulo is great during carnaval cause more than 50% leave Sao Paulo and head to the beach or country side, so the city is less crowded...
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Offline forzaroma

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 08:14:08 AM »
Next morning add the remaining flour, water and salt. If the preferment is frothy just mix it up and go. I would give it a fold every half hour for about 1 1/2 hours. At two hours or so form the loaves (anything from baguettes to boules). Let them rise till about 75% expanded (probably about three hours and bake as normal.


Form the loaves? Im confused on this, are you saying form the dough balls? Another question when using a poolish how do you incorporate the poolish into final dough are you just adding to wet ingredients or breaking up and adding into dry? probably a stupid question but I have to ask.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 10:53:25 AM »
Andre,

How do you plan to make your dough (for a two dough ball batch), by hand or by machine, and will you be using the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and sea salt? This time of year, would you ordinarily use 2.8% salt?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 11:04:54 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 12:25:25 PM »
Peter,

2 dough balls seems about right for this test, i use sea salt and for the summer 2.8% even 3% for a very hot day also seems right...

do you think 20% of poolish (trying to figure out how much IDY) is the right amount for this dough ?? im trying to figure this out, but usually people that use poolish make bread in a short period of time.... and i want to use this dough in a longer period...
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2011, 12:31:38 PM »
Andre,

I am thinking more like using around 50% of the total formula water and elaborating that with an equal weight of flour to make the poolish. I have been working on a test dough formulation for you to experiment with. It should be ready in a day or so.

What kind of flour will you be using, and how would you prepare two dough balls--by hand or by your Bosch?

Peter

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 01:59:57 PM »
ill use caputo, and for 2 dough balls ill use the cuisinart.... THANKs Allot Peter !!

50% of the Water is 30% of finished poolish compared to the FLOUR, right ?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2011, 02:59:20 PM »
50% of the Water is 30% of finished poolish compared to the FLOUR, right ?

Andre,

Yes, that is correct (that is, the amount of poolish would be equal to 30% of the total flour weight). I try to use Didier Rosada's methodology on poolish.

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2011, 03:27:43 PM »
lets use 1Kg of flour as a round number... 60% water is 600g, 50% of that for the poolish is 300g o water, considering that the poolish is 100% hydration the poolish is going to be 600g right ? that is a 60% poolish.... is this right ?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2011, 04:28:47 PM »
lets use 1Kg of flour as a round number... 60% water is 600g, 50% of that for the poolish is 300g o water, considering that the poolish is 100% hydration the poolish is going to be 600g right ? that is a 60% poolish.... is this right ?

Andre,

Yes, that is correct if measured with respect to the total formula flour.

Peter

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2011, 06:54:43 PM »
now im curious.... im going the opposite way with my calculations, im thinking a smaller poolish...
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2011, 07:06:08 PM »
Andre,

Based on the information you provided, including a desired timetable for the preparation and use of the poolish-based dough, I have set forth below an experimental dough formulation for your consideration. The dough formulation was designed completely on paper. So, I don’t know how it will perform in practice. However, since I went through a lot of mathematical calculations to come up with the dough formulation (I have three pages of notes and calculations), I will describe how I designed the dough formulation. That way, if the formulation is successful and you decide to make changes, you will know how they should be achieved.

First, I decided to use the method that member November described at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 to calculate the amount of yeast to be used in the total dough formulation. It was necessary that I use that method twice, once for the poolish and a second time for the final mix. In the latter case, I had to account for the fact that the final dough would be held in your wine unit for a first period of time and then at a very warm room temperature for a second period of time. (I will set forth the protocol for you to use in greater detail below.)

Second, for the poolish itself, I used the formulation recommended by Didier Rosada for a 12-15 hour poolish preferment in Chart A of his article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. However, since that recommendation presumes the use of cake yeast and a prefermentation temperature of 80-85 degrees F (26.7-29.4 degrees C), which is considerably higher than the temperature (18C/64.4F) of your wine unit, I had to convert the fresh yeast to IDY and to modify the poolish formulation to work at 18C/64.4F. Also, I decided to use a 14-hour prefermentation period. The calculations for the final dough were more involved because of the need to store the bulk dough in the wine unit at 18C/64.4F for several hours and, after division and scaling, to ferment the dough balls at an elevated room temperature of around 26.7C/80F for several more hours. The amount of yeast needed as part of the final mix had to take both periods and different temperatures into account. For this part of the exercise, I relied on what I learned about very low yeast long room temperature fermentation of dough in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html, and also elsewhere in the same thread. What I was hoping to see with the final dough is a doubling at the time the dough balls would be used to make pizzas.

All of the calculations were performed on an online scientific calculator at http://www.mathsisfun.com/scientific-calculator.html.

Before coming up with the three parts of the dough formulation, I had to decide on how much poolish to use. Didier Rosada, in the article referenced above, says that the poolish can use from 20-80% of the total formula water and then be elaborated with an equal weight of flour. For your experiment, I decided to pick a poolish percent in the middle of that range, to ensure the production of adequate by-products of fermentation and to produce acids that would adequately strengthen the final dough. You may find, just as Norma discovered with her preferment Lehmann dough formulation, that adjustments to the amount of poolish may be needed to achieve the desired final results. Only time will tell whether that will also be the case with your dough.

After the dust settled, I ended up with the Total Dough Formula set forth below, basing it on the 1000 grams of flour that you asked be used. I then broke down the Total Dough Formula into the Poolish part and the Final Mix part, both of which are also shown below. I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html but solely to get a clean formatting of the output data and to make some minor changes to improve readability.

Here are the results:

Total Dough Formula
Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.0438%):
Sea Salt (2.8%):
Total (162.8438%):
1000 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs
600 g  |  21.16 oz | 1.32 lbs
0.44 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
28 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
1628.44 g | 57.44 oz | 3.59 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Preferment (Poolish)
Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.07114%):
Total (200.07114%):
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
0.21 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp* | 0.02 tbsp
600.21 g | 21.17 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The Poolish uses 50% of the Total Formula Water and is elaborated with an equal weight of the flour
*0.07 teaspoon of IDY for the Poolish is equal to a bit over a "pinch" mini measuring spoon

Final Mix
Poolish (from above): 600.21 g | 21.17 oz | 1.32 lbs
Remaining Total Formula Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (42.857%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.03286%):
Total Formula Sea Salt (4%):
Total (146.88986%):
700 g  |  24.69 oz | 1.54 lbs
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
0.23 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp** | 0.03 tbsp
28 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
1028.23 g | 36.27 oz | 2.27 lbs | TF = N/A
**0.08 teaspoon of IDY for the Final Mix is about 1 1/4 of the "pinch" mini measuring spoon

As you will note from the above, the amounts of IDY used in the Poolish and in the Final Mix are very small. I don’t know what kind of scale or measuring tools, including mini measuring spoons, you have to measure out such small amounts but if you need help with such conversions, let me know and I will see what I can do.

With respect to the preparation of the Poolish and the dough from the Final Mix, here is the protocol I suggest you follow:

1. On the evening before the day you plan to make and use the final dough, make the Poolish at 8PM, and place it in the wine unit, at a prefermentation temperature of 18C/64.4F, until 10AM the next day (for a total prefermentation period of 14 hours). The water used to make the Poolish should be at a temperature of 15.6C/60F.

2. At 10AM, prepare the final dough as part of the Final Mix and store the final dough in bulk in the wine unit (at 18C/64.4F) until 4PM (a total of six hours). If you are using a Cuisinart food processor to make the dough, you will want to use a water temperature that is on the cool side so that the finished dough temperature is around 26.7C/80F.

3. At 4PM, divide and scale the bulk dough and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature (I have assumed 26.7C/80F in my calculations) until 8PM (a total of four hours).

4. At 8PM, make and bake the pizzas.

Although I have given very precise instructions and times, etc., in real life there are variations that can’t always be anticipated and quantified with great precision. One example is the “mass effect” that Didier Rosada has discussed in his writings, and as Brian Spangler recently mentioned in one of his posts. So, you should also use your powers of observation and prior dough making experience to guide you.

What I will be looking for is to see if the methodology I used to design your dough formulation really works, and how well. Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 07:53:56 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2011, 07:08:54 PM »
now im curious.... im going the opposite way with my calculations, im thinking a smaller poolish...

Andre,

I was in the process of completing my post when I saw that you posted. After reading my post, if you still feel that you should be using less Poolish, you can see from what I posted how to develop the Poolish and Final Mix parts of the Total Formula. The Total Formula itself will not change.

Peter

Offline thezaman

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2011, 07:58:15 PM »
andre, this is the formula i would use for 1000 grams,poolish: 177 g flour 177 g water .22 g dry yeast or .50g wet mix and room temp rise covered over night.this will be a batter so in the morning look for it to peak and fall slightly in the center.mix it with 823 grams of flour 465 grams of water add your 25 grams of salt after a minute of mixing. mix your normal length of time. let it set as per vpn standards 30 minutes i think. cut and ball. let it proof a couple of hour and make your pizzas. if you want to use it at night put it away in a cooler and pull it two hours before you need it.i use 70 degrees for my finished dough temperature before my stretch.as you can probably tell i am not very scientific . i used 59 percent reduction in all measurements to reduce it to 1000 grams of flour. good luck,larry

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2011, 08:32:24 PM »
WOW Peter !! THANKS ALLOT !!  i will try this for sure... thanks allot again for all the trouble i put you thru...... my calculation i think were off, cause i did not know how to calculate the IDY... i was LOST !!!

thanks Larry, ill try out to incorporate your idea if this formula that Peter gave me does not work perfectly....

PS : i have a 0.1g scale and mini measuring spoons...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 08:36:01 PM by andreguidon »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2011, 09:28:15 PM »
Andre,

I am a believer in trying out things to see how they work. So, you should by all means try Larry's recommended formulation. He is one of the success stories of this forum, with a passion for pizza that is almost unmatched. I was most concerned about the ambient temperature where you live. Living in Texas, I have learned how tough ambient room temperature can be on a dough, even at night, where it is not unusual in the peak temperature months, perhaps like your summer, to have outdoor temperatures above 32.2C/90F. I tried to fit everything to the temperatures and timing that you set forth. At a gut level, the numbers look right to me but I also understand how difficult it is to achieve success in the face of all of the variables, most of which are hard to control without using specialized equipment for that purpose.

I went back to the formulation I posted to see how I would convert the IDY to volume measurements using my set of mini measuring spoons. If my math is right, it appears that the 0.07 teaspoon of IDY for the Poolish is equal to a bit over a "pinch" mini measuring spoon. It looks like the 0.08 teaspoon of IDY for the Final Mix is about 1 1/4 of the "pinch" mini measuring spoon. I will go back and note these values in the dough formulation I posted.

Peter


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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2011, 10:03:51 AM »
Peter, the formula worked perfect !! i tested this with a 500g flour test dough and CY, the dough was nice and shine had a perfect feel and strength,  tomorrow ill make pizza in the WFO and will post pics of the process !! thanks again for all the help, and thanks Matt, pizzablogger, norma and thezaman for the xtra help, fomulas and links...
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2011, 10:59:31 AM »
Andre,

I am happy to hear that the dough formulation I posted in Reply 36 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13080.msg128439.html#msg128439) worked out for you. However, since that recipe was based on 1000 grams of flour, can you tell me whether you made half of the recipe or the full recipe and then divided the dough in half (but using cake yeast instead of IDY)? Also, can you tell me how you calculated the amount of cake yeast to use? Finally, did you use the protocol I outlined to make the dough, or did you modify it in any material way?

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2011, 11:10:47 AM »
well, the weather is i bit cooler this week so i reduced the salt to 2.4%, and i made half of the formula with CY, to calculate the CY i increased the weight by 3 so i used .3g for the poolish and .3g for a 500g of flour (caputo)... lets see how this formula behaves with a 3Kg of flour batch... thanks again Peter !!
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2011, 11:34:14 AM »
Andre,

Thank you for the additional information. You calculated the amount of cake yeast the way that I expected you would.

Good luck with your 3K flour batch. I'm very interested to see if your results confirm the methods I used to design your recipe on paper. It would help if you keep note of the times you use from the start of the poolish to the finished based pizzas.

Peter

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2011, 09:54:19 AM »
let me start updating !!

pics are from the process until 10AM today (brazil time)

pics 1 to 6 are the poolish in making process.
pics 7 and 8 are the dough.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 10:05:39 AM by andreguidon »
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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2011, 09:55:15 AM »
rest of the pics
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2011, 10:40:33 AM »
Can't wait to see the results.

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2011, 07:41:45 PM »
well, here is the result... the pizzas where perfect !! the taste, the texture, the dough was perfect for the neapolitan slap !! check out the pics... these where the pics that i got before every one atacked the pizzas....
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2011, 07:57:30 PM »
Andre,

That's really terrific. I was like an expectant father sitting on the edge of my chair awaiting the results.

Did you follow the dough preparation/management protocol that I set out toward the end of Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13080.msg128439.html#msg128439 ? All of the numbers were based on that protocol.

Peter