Author Topic: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour  (Read 4904 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Pizza01

  • Guest
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13083.msg129625.html#msg129625
i bought the gluten powder and decided to do some sciense in my kitchen (at this point while i am typing with my bad english my wife want to kill me with the new victorinox knife i bought her because of the mess i did in the kitchen)

so we have in israel only one bread flour called stybel number 2 it has 11% protien and the ap flour has 10% so i want to make 2 pies, yes 1 from the ap and 1 from bf adding gluten to it to reach 13% at both of them.
same pizza formula i make all the time, and as i writen at the last pizza post i did 2 days ago after learning how to go with long fermenting (24 hour) from john member forum dellavecchia on the keste clone thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12606.msg121050.html#msg121050 and getting the best result in flavor and every thing and that from now on only this way for us ( because its the best for my taste) so its in the experement with every thing that i have learn so far.
lets rap it and say that i made every thing in my power to make it work.
first batch using bf:
98% bf                               250 gram
2% gluten powder                5 gr
62.3% water                       159 gr
2.5 % salt                          6.4 gr
1% sugar                            2.5 gr
2% o.oil                             5 gr
0.075% idy yeast - because the original call for cy and i dident have any today i converted the amount of cy to idy> divided into 3>  0.19gr. cy > i used -0.06gram idy.
the recipe is not accurate on the mil or micro because my scale doesent break it into hundreds, but its more or less.
note - the gluten added to the flour> the amount of flour + gluten was consider as 100% together in the formula.

the second batch was same at all.  the only thing that changed was that the ap flour was consider as:
97 % ap flour
3 % gluten
*
*
(same wheigh for all the rest ingridients like the first batch).
because its with less protiens.
the prossec: water and flour with gluten in the food prossecor on pulses mode, autolyse 30 minutes adding the rest: yeast, sugar, salt, olive oil.
putted each one in oiled conteiner on the fridge to seat in room temperature. its there for another 19 hours (already past 5).
another thank for marc member forum widespreadpizza for posting the table of converting yeast http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13083.msg128111.html#msg128111
i dont know what i would have done today without this.
and craig ( member forum TXCraig1) thank you too the same here without your method there is no way i could get 0.06 gram idy from my jar :).
here is craig method http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12976.msg126999.html#msg126999 very very good!
i will update tomarrow.
i will update on the outcome tomarrow.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 07:45:22 PM by msheetrit »


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3602
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 07:36:41 PM »
Michael,

My advice to use Vital Wheat Gluten was in regards to bread dough, not pizza dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13083.msg129625.html#msg129625

You can certainly use it in pizza dough, too, but I suggested it in connection with a bread dough and higher hydrations.

But let's see how those two doughs turn out.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 07:44:13 PM »
Michael,

My advice to use Vital Wheat Gluten was in regards to bread dough, not pizza dough.
You can certainly use it in pizza dough, too, but I suggested it in connection with a bread dough and higher hydrations.
But let's see how those two doughs turn out.
we will get there also  ;D first pizza, and then bread.
as for the hydration i wanted it to be with same formula as i do all the time so i could compare the outcome with the pies i know.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 08:40:47 PM by msheetrit »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23216
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 07:46:59 PM »
Michael,

I have a few questions:

1. Can you tell me what the protein content (percent) is for the vital wheat gluten you are using? In the U.S., the range of protein content of different brands of vital wheat gluten is around 65%-77.8%.

2. How did you calculate how much vital wheat gluten to add to the two flours to get their final protein content to 13%?

3. What was the weight of the all-purpose flour, in grams.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 08:28:32 PM by Pete-zza »

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 08:33:07 PM »
1-i cant say. it called "gluten" and wheigh nothing else.

2- i did it simple. from your question i understand i did somthing wrong or the whole thing.
i figure that if the bf values said it has 11% protien i should i add more 2% to reach 13%.  :-\

3- 250 gram all-purpose flour ( 10% protien) i added 7.5 (figure its 3%) gram gluten powder.
and started the formula with 257.5 flower.
and everything else based on it as 100%.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 08:36:34 PM by msheetrit »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23216
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2011, 08:42:32 PM »
Michael,

Unless you know the protein content of the vital wheat gluten you are using, there is no way of accurately calculating the increase in the protein content of the two flours you are using. When I want to increase the protein content of a given flour to some other value, I use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. I have worked with other members in the past who were outside of the U.S. and my recollection is that they went to the source or producer of the vital wheat gluten to get the percent of protein in their particular brands of vital wheat gluten.

When you added the vital wheat gluten to the two flours did you use the same hydration as you used without the vital wheat gluten or did you increase the amount of water?

Peter

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 08:48:28 PM »
i increased with 6 gram water. instead of 60% i did 62.3%. why?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23216
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2011, 09:07:32 PM »
i increased with 6 gram water. instead of 60% i did 62.3%. why?

Michael,

It sounds like what you did was correct. Vital wheat gluten does not have the same absorption characteristics as the flour to which it is added. So, to compensate, one should increase the amount of the formula water. Tom Lehmann usually advises that one add 1 1/2 to 2 times the weight of the vital wheat gluten as additional water.

If you would like to give me some flour/vital wheat gluten quantities, I perhaps can give you some numbers as to final protein content. To do this, I would assume a value of the protein content of the vital wheat gluten. Maybe something like the protein content (75%) of the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten, which is perhaps the most popular brand in the U.S.

Peter

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2011, 09:23:50 PM »
amm i dident did it on purpose, i took 250 gram bf and added to it 5 gram gluten powder and 153gr water, mixed it and leted seat 30 minutes. then i saw that i dont have cy yeast so i took idy from the frizer and i had to get 0.06 gram yeast, so i used craig method and added 1 gram yeast to 100 gram water i mixed it litel bit and took out 6 gram from it and added to the mixture. and thats how it got to another 6 gram, i if i did ok i am happy.

i dident understand what you ment about number but if i think i got it right and you ment about amounts so:
as i said i used
250 gram bread flour with the contects of 11% protiens and added to it
5 gram gluten powder
and 159 gram water

this is what you mented peter?


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23216
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2011, 09:51:47 PM »
Michael,

I will use your example of 250 grams of flour with an 11% protein content and 5 grams of vital wheat gluten, for a total of 255 grams, to demonstrate the point I was trying to make. For the exercise, I will assume that the vital wheat gluten you are using has a protein content of 77.8%. That is the highest protein content of the several brands of vital wheat gluten listed in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.

Using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, the total protein content for the above combination is 12.3098%.

If I use the same example (250 grams of flour and 5 grams of vital wheat gluten) but assume a protein content for the vital wheat gluten of 65%, which is the lowest value in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, the total protein content for the combination is 12.05883.

Since most of the vital wheat glutens that I am aware of tend to fall in the above range of 65-77.8% protein, it is unlikely that your flour blends have a total protein content of 13%. That doesn't mean that the doughs wont work out well for you. It just means that your final protein contents won't be 13%. In the first example, you would need 7.64 grams of vital wheat gluten to reach 13%; in the second example, you would need 9.44 grams of vital wheat gluten to reach 13%. I think you can now see why you need to know the percent protein of your brand of vital wheat gluten to be able to accurately calculate how much of your vital wheat gluten to add to the 11% flour to get to 13%.

Peter


Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2011, 09:54:21 PM »
after googled "how much gluten needs to add" in hebrew so this way i will get the relevent answer for israeli values i found the somthing interesting.
here (i translated to english using google so maybe some words will come out not just righ but it look ok)
"Gluten must be added about 3% of the amount of flour," says David Friedman, "but if damaged our power flour, gluten does not help. If you want to make rye bread lighter can simply reduce the percentage of rye flour."
 
david friedman is the head of development and research in stybel factory which must say produce the only bread flour in israel and their flours are the finest in israel. after reading that i think he mented by adding gluten to white flour and regelur kind and most of them here has 10-10.5% protiens in it.

here is the full article;
http://translate.google.co.il/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=iw&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=iw&tl=en&u=http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3614177,00.html&act=url

but now i cant be sure, i have sented couple of minutes ago mail to the manufactor of the gluten powder i bought, in couple of days i am guessing i will have answer.

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2011, 09:58:24 PM »
Michael,

I will use your example of 250 grams of flour with an 11% protein content and 5 grams of vital wheat gluten, for a total of 255 grams, to demonstrate the point I was trying to make. For the exercise, I will assume that the vital wheat gluten you are using has a protein content of 77.8%. That is the highest protein content of the several brands of vital wheat gluten listed in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.

Using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, the total protein content for the above combination is 12.3098%.

If I use the same example (250 grams of flour and 5 grams of vital wheat gluten) but assume a protein content for the vital wheat gluten of 65%, which is the lowest value in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, the total protein content for the combination is 12.05883.

Since most of the vital wheat glutens that I am aware of tend to fall in the above range of 65-77.8% protein, it is unlikely that your flour blends have a total protein content of 13%. That doesn't mean that the doughs wont work out well for you. It just means that your final protein contents won't be 13%. In the first example, you would need 7.64 grams of vital wheat gluten to reach 13%; in the second example, you would need 9.44 grams of vital wheat gluten to reach 13%. I think you can now see why you need to know the percent protein of your brand of vital wheat gluten to be able to accurately calculate how much of your vital wheat gluten to add to the 11% flour to get to 13%.

Peter


peter you have made my day! just to know that is more then gold to me at this point.
yes to every thing that you have writen.
and if you wondering why i am happy?... is because maybe now we dont have in fermenting procces 13% but we are on the right track to get there.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23216
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2011, 10:09:27 PM »
Michael,

Most instructions for using vital wheat gluten say to either use a particular percent (of the weight of formula flour) or to add a certain number of teaspoons or tablespoons to a certain volume of flour (such as a cup). Usually, the instructions are silent as to the type of flour (such as all-purpose flour or bread flour) to which the vital wheat gluten is to be added. So, there is no way to calculate the total protein content of the blend. In most cases, this is not a problem. But if you are trying to achieve a particular total protein content (13% in your case), you need to know the protein content of your vital wheat gluten and use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.

Peter

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2011, 10:21:04 PM »
i am guessing the values are mostly the same in every israeli gluten powder because its manufactors here in israel, and the hardenss of the wheat is the same. stybel factory said their gluten conteins 75% protiens. i am guessing what i have is the same or close to it again because both risen here in the same wheather.
here it cant be translated from some reason but you can see below the number 75%
http://www.stybel.co.il/lect_full.php?id=45

i have translated the words for you.
"- add nutritional value of bakery products due to the fact that
Containing 75% protein."
so have some sort of answer and thats make sence, after reading about gluten litel bit israel almost dont have rain or winter at all, most of the time we have sun and in the summer its very hot here.
after caculating it i think in the bf that:
250 gram
+
5 gram gluten then i have somthing like 12.4% protiens in the dough?...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 10:25:42 PM by msheetrit »

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3602
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2011, 10:24:25 PM »
Michael,

Can you provide us with the name brand or the manufacturer's name of the vital gluten?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2011, 10:32:40 PM »
thats the problem.now i think its imported maybe. thats why i need to buy another new one from stybel.

this one calls http://www.4chef.co.il/Products/%D7%92%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%98%D7%9F%20500%20%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%9D.php


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23216
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2011, 10:34:27 PM »
after caculating it i think in the bf that:
250 gram
+
5 gram gluten then i have somthing like 12.4% protiens in the dough?...

Michael,

Using 75% protein for your vital wheat gluten and 250 grams of 11% flour and 5 grams of vital wheat gluten, I get a value for the protein content of the blend of 12.2549% (from the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator). You would need 7.9688 grams of vital wheat gluten and 247.0313 grams of 11% flour to reach 13%.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 10:36:37 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3602
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2011, 10:39:49 PM »
Peter & Michael,

I don't want to confuse you or interfere with Peter's calculations but I just ran some numbers through the Food Product Calculator.

I used the 'King Arthur All purpose flour' option because there is no flour listed that has 11% protein content. This one has 11.7 %. The Generic AP has 10.3%, a value that might be too low.

So, assuming that your Vital Gluten has a protein content of 75%, your flour has an 11% protein content and setting the number 250 gr as 100% you would need 244.8657 gr of flour and 5.1343gr of vital gluten to reach a protein content of 13% in your bread flour. But...since your flour has only 11% of protein, you'd need just a tiny bit less of vital gluten than what the numbers show.

Now, you can round the first number up and the second down which would bring you to 245gr of bread flour and 5gr of vital gluten.

Seriously, I hope that I wasn't too confusing in my explanation and perhaps Peter can ellaborate it a bit more in detail but that's what it basically would come to if you use the 250 gr a 100% value.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23216
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2011, 10:50:43 PM »
Mike,

I used 75% and 11% in the two fields below the pull-down menus and 255 grams in the Mass box, to yield 7.9688 in the MassA box (vital wheat gluten) and 247.0313 (11% flour) in the MassB box. Did I misinterpret something?

Using 250 grams instead of 255 grams in the Mass box, I get 7.8125 and 242.1875 as the two numbers.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 10:53:23 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3602
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2011, 10:57:23 PM »
Mike,

I used 75% and 11% in the two fields below the pull-down menus and 255 grams in the Mass box, to yield 7.9688 in the MassA box (vital wheat gluten) and 247.0313 (11% flour) in the MassB box. Did I misinterpret something?

Peter

Aha.

No, I don't think you did misinterpret anything. I think the reason we got different numbers is because I went with 250gr flour as a starting point. When I use your method I got the same numbers.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2011, 11:00:15 PM »
the problem is that 75% is the stybel and i have read that what i have bought is imported.  ???
i bought from them flour that they say is tipo 00 called piveti and it glowed to my stone >:(.
so we will see what will happens in what i did so far the bf batch has shown some fermented sign and the ap doesent shows nothing.
first thing on sun day i am going to buy from stybel wheat vitel protien powder. this way i will be sure that what i have in my hand is very good prudect and i will also know the right number.

i have to learn how to use the Food Product Calculator also.
ok its 6 am here i am going to bed, good night and thank you very much.  but like every memeber who is hoocked first i will try run some numbers on this caculator.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 11:02:40 PM by msheetrit »

Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1144
  • Age: 28
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2011, 11:23:35 PM »
you need to get the percentage of flour to gluten. before you know your final percentage

if you have 300g of flour at 12% and 50g of gluten at 75% you have 83.33% flour at 12% combined with 16.67% of gluten at 75%

i dont remember the next step though... maybe someone can help?
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23216
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2011, 10:12:03 AM »
you need to get the percentage of flour to gluten. before you know your final percentage

if you have 300g of flour at 12% and 50g of gluten at 75% you have 83.33% flour at 12% combined with 16.67% of gluten at 75%

i dont remember the next step though... maybe someone can help?

c0mpl3x,

If you want to see the math behind the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator you can click on the Greek symbol at the top right hand corner of the tool. If you are wondering what the final protein content is for 300 grams of 12% flour and 50 grams of 75% protein vital wheat gluten, from the tool I get 21%. I got this value by entering 75 and 12 in the two boxes below the pull-down menus, entering 350 (300 + 50) into the Mass box, and then playing with the value in the % box until I got 50 in the MassA box and 300 in the MassB box.

Peter

Pizza01

  • Guest
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2011, 11:25:13 AM »
peter coukd you please post screen picture of the caculator with the values added? I cant understand how to use it.

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3602
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2011, 12:16:34 PM »
I'm not Peter but here you go... :)

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein