Author Topic: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough  (Read 8746 times)

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Offline norma427

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Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« on: March 22, 2011, 10:27:48 PM »
I mixed a modified Reinhart Classic dough on Friday and dropped the IDY amount, upped the TF and also added 2% olive oil to the formula.  The pizza turned out good but didnít brown enough.  It can be seen on the dough ball that there were little specks.  I donít know what I am going to try next, but might add honey and also add more oil to the formula.  The rim of this pizza wasnít as moist as the Modified Country dough I made today at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13320.msg132097.html#msg132097 This dough was a higher hydration than the Modified Country dough.  If anyone has any ideas if they think this might be a good idea to get a moister rim, let me know.

This is the formula worksheet I used.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 10:33:12 PM »
pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 10:36:48 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 10:38:47 PM »
end of pictures..I don't know why this pie wanted to bubble in the middle either.  I did let the dough warm-up for 2 hrs.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 10:45:48 PM »
Norma,

It sounds like you preferred the modified Reinhart Country pizza better than the modified Reinhart Classic pizza.

Since honey is a humectant (hygroscopic), it might be a good idea to try adding some to the dough to help retain moisture in the dough. If you also increase the amount of oil, you may want to lower the hydration to reflect the added oil and to also compensate for the water content of the honey.

Using both honey and oil in the dough will have the effect of moving the dough in the direction of an American style dough but with a thinner crust and an artisan twist.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 11:44:38 PM »
Norma,

It sounds like you preferred the modified Reinhart Country pizza better than the modified Reinhart Classic pizza.

Since honey is a humectant (hygroscopic), it might be a good idea to try adding some to the dough to help retain moisture in the dough. If you also increase the amount of oil, you may want to lower the hydration to reflect the added oil and to also compensate for the water content of the honey.

Using both honey and oil in the dough will have the effect of moving the dough in the direction of an American style dough but with a thinner crust and an artisan twist.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that Steve and I both preferred the modified Reinhart Country Dough better than the modified Reinhart Classic dough. 

Do you think if I lowered the hydration to the same level as the modified Reinhart Country Dough, and then added the same amount of oil and honey as I did in the modified Country dough, I might get the about the same results?  I would think the part whole wheat in the modified Country dough would affect the hydration some. Steve and I did like the moister rim on the modified Reinhart Country dough.  When I opened the dough on the modified Classic dough it almost wanted to open itself.  The dough was very soft.

I was surprised Steve and I didnít taste any sweetness in the modified Reinhart Country dough with the added honey.  I might have to play around with the modified Reinhart Classic dough to see what happens.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 10:27:47 AM »
Norma,

Do you think if I lowered the hydration to the same level as the modified Reinhart Country Dough, and then added the same amount of oil and honey as I did in the modified Country dough, I might get the about the same results?  I would think the part whole wheat in the modified Country dough would affect the hydration some. Steve and I did like the moister rim on the modified Reinhart Country dough.  When I opened the dough on the modified Classic dough it almost wanted to open itself.  The dough was very soft.

I think it is worth a try. The honey, along with the oil, should help produce a softer crumb, much as it does with an American style dough such as the Papa John's dough.[/quote]

Quote
I was surprised Steve and I didnít taste any sweetness in the modified Reinhart Country dough with the added honey.

I found that somewhat true when I experimented with the Papa John's clone doughs with around 4% sugar and also with comparable levels of honey. However, I found that I could detect the sweetness more when I reheated leftover slices or tasted the crust while it was cold. It is also possible in your case that the whole wheat flour masqueraded some of the sweetness of the honey. Sweetness is also a personal thing. Some people are more sensitive to it than others.

Peter



Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 12:08:30 PM »
Norma,

I think it is worth a try. The honey, along with the oil, should help produce a softer crumb, much as it does with an American style dough such as the Papa John's dough.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks, I will put honey and more oil in my next attempt for a modified Reinhart classic dough to see what happens. 

I really don't like a taste of sweetness in a pizza crust, so I will see what happens with that and also if the Whole Wheat was masking the taste of honey.  I have been using Lancaster County Spring Blossom honey. I don't have any leftover slices of the modified Reinhart Country dough pizza to reheat to see if I can detect sweetness after a reheat.

Norma   
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 01:22:52 AM »
I mixed a modified Reinhart Classic dough on Friday and dropped the IDY amount, upped the TF and also added 2% olive oil to the formula.  The pizza turned out good but didnít brown enough.  It can be seen on the dough ball that there were little specks.  I donít know what I am going to try next, but might add honey and also add more oil to the formula.  The rim of this pizza wasnít as moist as the Modified Country dough I made today at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13320.msg132097.html#msg132097 This dough was a higher hydration than the Modified Country dough.  If anyone has any ideas if they think this might be a good idea to get a moister rim, let me know.

This is the formula worksheet I used.

Pictures below

Norma

Norma
I made a batch of Classic dough on Tuesday night using Reinhart's procedures and recipe (I added 2% olive oil, and the process took about 35 minutes).  Thursday morning I reballed 6 hours prior to baking (this is the most substantial procedure I've learned since starting experimentation on this dough). I then took my dough balls to my Mom's where I promised her and Dad a pizza feast.  I forgot that her oven doesn't get near as hot as my home oven...and then my Mom insisted that I bake 3 pizzas at a time so we could all sit down and eat together (that's what Italian Moms do).  So, being the good son I loaded 3 pizzas in her oven...(I was scared to death I was gonna embarrass myself).  Anyway, the pizzas had to have taken 13 to 15 minutes to bake...but, you know what, the edges were nicely bubbled and very brown.  I can't say the same for the bottoms...they were quite pale, but they were crisp.  I was expecting the pizzas to be tough, but they were tender and delicious and I was hero for a day.  I know my pizzas would have been even better if baked properly in a hotter oven, but I did learn that with enough time the dough browns.

Maybe this might be the answer to your browning problem....bake in a cooler oven...
John

Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2011, 08:13:29 AM »
Norma
I made a batch of Classic dough on Tuesday night using Reinhart's procedures and recipe (I added 2% olive oil, and the process took about 35 minutes).  Thursday morning I reballed 6 hours prior to baking (this is the most substantial procedure I've learned since starting experimentation on this dough). I then took my dough balls to my Mom's where I promised her and Dad a pizza feast.  I forgot that her oven doesn't get near as hot as my home oven...and then my Mom insisted that I bake 3 pizzas at a time so we could all sit down and eat together (that's what Italian Moms do).  So, being the good son I loaded 3 pizzas in her oven...(I was scared to death I was gonna embarrass myself).  Anyway, the pizzas had to have taken 13 to 15 minutes to bake...but, you know what, the edges were nicely bubbled and very brown.  I can't say the same for the bottoms...they were quite pale, but they were crisp.  I was expecting the pizzas to be tough, but they were tender and delicious and I was hero for a day.  I know my pizzas would have been even better if baked properly in a hotter oven, but I did learn that with enough time the dough browns.

Maybe this might be the answer to your browning problem....bake in a cooler oven...
John

John,

Thanks for telling me about your recent experiment and what led you to believe the Reinhart classic dough can be baked in a lower oven temperature and still turn out good.  I was also contemplating to do a test this Tuesday with a regular Lehmann dough in the amount of two dough balls to see if my oven temperatures do change how a dough browns.  I did post about doing that test at Reply 27 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8032.msg132242.html#msg132242 Since you did your experiment, I might try out the modified Reinhart dough in the amount of 2 dough balls in the experiment,  instead of the regular Lehmann dough.  At least then I would know if the modified Reinhart dough does brown better with lower deck oven temperatures.  I know when I first starting making pizza I did use lower oven temperatures at market and my pizzas did brown different.  I kept changing the oven temperatures because I wanted more char on the bottom and a quicker bake.  The higher oven temperatures I am using now might have affected my crust coloration.  

Maybe your reballing also has something to do with distributing  everything throughout the dough.  I didnít even get good crust coloration when I did a reball the other time I made a classic Reinhart dough on my other thread. Any thoughts on what the reballing does in your Classic Reinhart dough?

Great to hear you were the hero for the day in baking your Classic Reinhart dough for your parents.  It is really interesting that the crust was nice and brown and the crumb was tender and delicious.  From that long of a bake time, that is incredible in my opinion.  You are a good Italian son for doing an experiment for your parents and not knowing what would happen.  ;D  My hat is off to you!  :chef:

At some point in time I am going to try out a modified Classic Reinhart dough in my home oven.  My home oven canít get to very high temperatures either, just like your parents oven.  I have seen different doughs I make at home do brown in my home oven at lower temperatures.

Thanks for taking the time to post your results in your experiment with the Classic Reinhart dough.  I need all the help I can get.  :-D

Norma
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 08:17:54 AM by norma427 »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2011, 01:41:01 AM »
Norma
When I reballed as per Reinhart's instructions, the dough was extremely soft and flimsy, in fact I could pick it up and hold the edge and it would drop as far as the floor if I let it.  By being extremely careful, I could make a great pie, but it seemed so iffy to me.  Also, I tended to get these huge black blisters from the gases that were trapped right on the outer edge of the dough.  By reballing sooner, the dough is much stronger, in fact so strong it can be hand tossed (sorry, this is old territory), and secondly it doesn't get too thin.  As for the baking temp Norma, I still see it that the goal should be to have the top and bottom done at the same time.  I'm not ga ga for char unless it's neapolitan in a very hot oven...I'll settle for dark golden brown all over any day of the week.  Have lots of fun, and keep up the good work!!
John

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2011, 06:49:53 AM »
Norma
When I reballed as per Reinhart's instructions, the dough was extremely soft and flimsy, in fact I could pick it up and hold the edge and it would drop as far as the floor if I let it.  By being extremely careful, I could make a great pie, but it seemed so iffy to me.  Also, I tended to get these huge black blisters from the gases that were trapped right on the outer edge of the dough.  By reballing sooner, the dough is much stronger, in fact so strong it can be hand tossed (sorry, this is old territory), and secondly it doesn't get too thin.  As for the baking temp Norma, I still see it that the goal should be to have the top and bottom done at the same time.  I'm not ga ga for char unless it's neapolitan in a very hot oven...I'll settle for dark golden brown all over any day of the week.  Have lots of fun, and keep up the good work!!
John

John,

Thanks for your help and advise again.  :)  I made two modified Reinhart doughs with oil and honey (raw unprocessed) to try in the deck oven today.  The dough was very soft (but not really sticky), but after I reballed or stretch and folded a few times the dough did get stronger.  I am not going to reball today and see what happens.  I am going to change the oven temperature for the two doughs.  I donít know if I am going to try the first dough early this morning before my deck oven gets up to temperatures or wait until later today and drop the temperature.  I do have an IR gun at market, so I should see if my oven temperatures are the cause of this dough and possibly others doughs not giving enough coloration.  At least these two doughs will give me a starting point to see what is wrong.  I am like you, I will settle for golden brown any day.  I only like top char if it is neapolitan pizza in a really hot oven too.  At least I get to taste neapolitan style pizza in my friend Steveís WFO. 

Norma
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Offline DannyG

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2011, 08:56:39 AM »
Norma, what brand of flour are you using and what is your oven temp?

Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2011, 09:18:02 PM »
Norma, what brand of flour are you using and what is your oven temp?

DannyG,

I used Better for Bread flour in my last attempt and today I used Pillsbury Bread flour.  My oven temperatures for my last bake were around 550 to around 575 degrees F.  In my next post I will say what I did today.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2011, 09:22:13 PM »
I had changed the formula for the modified Reinhart classic dough for today.  I had a success and a failure with the two dough balls today.  This morning I had decided to put my oven temperature down right away.  My deck oven was running between 485 to 525 degrees F, depending on where the temperature on the deck was measured.  I wanted to see how the  modified Reinhart dough balls would bake in a lower temperature and also see how my preferment Lehmann doughs would bake at lower temperatures. 

The first modified Reinhart dough did bake well in the lower bake temperatures and I think I did have the highest oven spring in my deck oven that I ever had.  The rim was also the moistest rim I ever made.  I really donít know what to attribute this all to, since the oven temperatures were lower.  The crust did brown, but I guess it could have browned more.  I might have to try to lower the temperatures more next week.  Steve and I both couldnít notice any sweetness in the crust of this first pizza made today.

Since I had a successful first bake, I thought for the second bake on the modified Reinhart classic dough I would try a Pizzarium style bake of the Reinhart modified classic dough since it felt like a Pizzarium dough.  I didnít have a successful bake with that dough.  If anyone is interested in the pictures of the second bake I will post them, but there was a big gum line on the pie in the second bake.  I didnít have the right kind of pan at market to really try this out or either I didn't bake the second pie long enough. I couldnít notice any sweetness in the crust of this second pie, but Steve said he could. 

If anyone is interested in the formula I used today, I can post the formula and what changes I made.

Pictures of the first bake.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2011, 09:26:07 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2011, 09:28:16 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2011, 09:29:47 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2011, 12:05:46 AM »
Norma
I continue to get fantastic results with this recipe/procedure changing only the reballing schedule.  Here is the last dough of a batch made 6 and a half days ago....time is very good to these doughs.
John

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2011, 06:31:07 AM »
Norma
I continue to get fantastic results with this recipe/procedure changing only the reballing schedule.  Here is the last dough of a batch made 6 and a half days ago....time is very good to these doughs.
John

John,

Wow, your Reinhart dough pizza fermented for 6 days looks fantastic!  ;D  I can imagine how good that crust tasted about that long of a ferment.  Did you change the amount of yeast to ferment that long.  Also did you use honey and how much oil in that formula?  When was the reball in your latest pizza?  Your crumb really looks moist.  I am really liking the Reinhart dough also.  I didnít try any modified Reinhart Country dough this week, but might next week.

Thanks for helping me with my oven temperatures.   :)

Norma
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