Author Topic: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough  (Read 8353 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2011, 11:01:00 AM »
Norma
Exactly as Reinhart writes it plus 2% oil, no honey or sugar...only change is the reball 5 hours prior to baking in 580 degree oven.  I make a 6 day supply and as good as the first ones are, the last ones are fantastic
John


Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2011, 11:34:15 AM »
John
I made some this weekend and after 3 days the results were great though no pictures.  At day 2 I started to get m&m sized bubbles that turned into green grapes by day 3.  Is this ok?  Should I pinch them down when they appear?

If you didn't see the other thread, my 5 second mix on speed 1 instead of a stretch and fold was a big success.

Thanks
Dave
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2011, 01:56:21 PM »
Norma
Exactly as Reinhart writes it plus 2% oil, no honey or sugar...only change is the reball 5 hours prior to baking in 580 degree oven.  I make a 6 day supply and as good as the first ones are, the last ones are fantastic
John

John,

Thanks for telling me what you used in the Reinhart formula.  :)  It is interesting that the same amount of yeast can go for so many days and not overferment the dough.  I am still trying to figure out how that works out okay.  I can imagine how fantastic the last pies taste.  I will have to try a longer fermentation and see how it works out for me.

Norma
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Offline DannyG

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2011, 02:48:09 PM »
John, when you re-ball 5 hours before baking, do you leave the dough out for the 5 hours or do you put it back in the frig?

Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2011, 06:40:36 PM »
Back in the fridge until 90 to 120 minutes prior to baking
John

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2011, 08:53:58 PM »
John,

You have played around with several Reinhart dough recipes, including some from one or more of Peter's books. You appear to be very fond of the Reinhart Classic/Country recipes. How would they rate against the other Reinhart recipes you have tried? In other words, which one is your favorite, and why?

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2011, 12:14:29 AM »
John,

You have played around with several Reinhart dough recipes, including some from one or more of Peter's books. You appear to be very fond of the Reinhart Classic/Country recipes. How would they rate against the other Reinhart recipes you have tried? In other words, which one is your favorite, and why?

Peter

Peter
As you know, I've been making laminated cracker crust pizza for about 35 years now.  My brother and I as well as my crew are foodies.  We all love great food, and while we adore our pizzas, and especially our crust, it is always nice to see what is possible in the world of pizza dough.  It wasn't until stumbling on this site (I was looking for any kind of information I could find on cracker crusts), that I realized how many people out there like you (Peter) were out there looking to make the perfect pizza.  So, I started from scratch trying out recipes and procedures at home and bringing my experiments to work to share with all my friends...and the biggest thrill of all, was the continuation of my education on my own cracker crust as I experimented.  Although we enjoyed my trials, most of the time they just instilled in us how good a product we have.  I have written about a trip I took to Seattle last year, how my friends and I ate pizza all day, and then had a final meal at "Serious Pie".  One of the three pizzas we ate was simply one of the best meals I have ever eaten in my life...I know you know what a shock that is to the system because we are all unaware of what we do not know.  I immediately vowed to try and replicate what I ate, and so going through recipes I found Reinhart's recipe in his "Artisan Breads Everyday".  I had tried all his previous recipes in previous books but none were a huge hit with me.  So, I tried his neo neapolitan dough...what really drew me to it was the fact that it was a high hydration dough, but it was simple to use because of the procedures he outlines in his book (the use of oil on your worksurface for example).  Anyway, the dough was fantastic, and it had the looks of what I wanted...but I had troubles stretching it out the same everytime.  But, I kept working at it, and experimenting by adding poolish, or increasing hydration....and I always got some good pizzas out of each batch, but the dough was hard to stretch without getting too thin...so my pizzas were usually a little thick.  But the pizzas were getting better and better.  Then I found the classic dough recipe at the Pizza Quest site and realized it was Reinhart's evolution of his neo neapolitan dough, and I gave it a whirl wondering what even less mixing time would do to a dough.  And I was amazed at how good the dough was...and so was my crew...and I knew I was on to something when my crew would look around each day wondering if I had brought some dough from home to try.....but it wasn't until I read some comments by you and others about the reballing of pizza, that I started playing around with Reinhart's methods.  By simply reballing the dough 5 to 10 hours prior to baking (instead of the 2 hours as the recipe says) I can almost guarantee a great pizza everytime, because I find the stretching of it so much easier.  That's the long answer Peter...I love the classic/country dough recipes from the Pizza Quest website the best of at least 10 I've tried from all his books.
The short answer is the same because of its simplicity...I can make a batch of high hydration dough, in about 35 minutes (I actually do most of the crossword puzzle since most of this 35 minutes is rest time), my kitchen is nice and clean, and I don't have to fight with sticky dough.
Quality of Product and Simplicity
Sorry for the long answer

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2011, 08:16:20 AM »
John,

I find your post very interesting in your trying different Peter Reinhart recipes and finding you really like the recent recipes for classic/country dough better than Reinhartís other recipes, with your method of reballing even making his new recipes better.

I already know about the simplicity of this dough, but what are your ideas on why these doughs work out so well.  Usually a undermixed dough seems to work out okay.  Do you really think these doughs are undermixed, then somehow made better though the addition of reball or stretch and folds.  Also do you think the high hydration also somehow makes this all work together better?  Since you are a long time pizza maker, I would like to hear your views on why you think these doughs work out so well.  I have only started to experiment on these doughs, but even without a poolish the final pizza seems to come out well. 

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2011, 02:32:34 PM »
John,

I find your post very interesting in your trying different Peter Reinhart recipes and finding you really like the recent recipes for classic/country dough better than Reinhartís other recipes, with your method of reballing even making his new recipes better.

I already know about the simplicity of this dough, but what are your ideas on why these doughs work out so well.  Usually a undermixed dough seems to work out okay.  Do you really think these doughs are undermixed, then somehow made better though the addition of reball or stretch and folds.  Also do you think the high hydration also somehow makes this all work together better?  Since you are a long time pizza maker, I would like to hear your views on why you think these doughs work out so well.  I have only started to experiment on these doughs, but even without a poolish the final pizza seems to come out well. 

Norma

Norma
Although I'm an old time pizza guy, I've only made one kind my whole life....I'm as new to the making of different pizzas at home as you are.  But I love to play around, and I love to observe.  Now, having said that, and having read different recipes and procedures on this website for hours and hours...I was disheartened to think one had to go through all of these hoops and waste all this time to make a simple pizza that you find in a lot of posts.  So, I have to rely on what I read from people like Reinhart who claims
"the key is to make it wet enough so that the cornicione really puffs in the oven".  And then when I read that the total mix time would be 2 minutes (huh!, not 6 minutes with a 45 minute rest and then mix another 7.6 minutes)....I thought, wow, what a change..no mention of windows and membranes..how can this be?????  So, I tried it, and was simply amazed at the puff of the cornicione....I'm sorry I can't tell you why it works...I'm sure there are many here who can explain....I simply observe that it works and is delicious and I have a crew of employees who sit and wait for me to bring experiments to work.  As for thinking if the dough is undermixed and knowing what the folding does.....my other observation is...I have done many, many experiments with no-knead dough recipes, where I added my own stretch and folds throughout 24 hour room temp fermentation periods....and have had great results..so obviously, stretching gives strength and body.
Did you notice Reinhart posted a New York style recipe on Pizza Quest?  I made a batch yesterday, and in about an hour I'll bake one and see what it is like...this recipe has more mix time, so we'll see what results I get.

John

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2011, 03:03:56 PM »
Did you notice Reinhart posted a New York style recipe on Pizza Quest?  I made a batch yesterday, and in about an hour I'll bake one and see what it is like...this recipe has more mix time, so we'll see what results I get.


John,

I believe that the NY style dough recipe that Peter Reinhart posted at the fornobravo Pizza Quest website is the same one--or essentially the same one--as given in his book American Pie. When I created the collection of non-Lehmann NY style dough recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html, I included the Reinhart New York style recipe in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.msg110290.html#msg110290. I annotated that recipe with the fornobravo citation about a week or so ago after Norma mentioned that the recipe was added to the fornobravo Pizza Quest website. There are a handful of us on the forum who have tried the recipe.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2011, 03:17:26 PM »
John,

Thanks for your detailed reply.  I am relatively new to making pizza.  It has been only two years since I started making pizza.  Since I am learning, I also like to watch and observe what is going on with any dough.  I just started experimenting with higher hydration doughs seriously in the last few months.  I have found I really like a high hydration dough.  This really came about since I have the Tartine bread book and have been working on some attempts on the Pizzarium thread. 

I also became interested in the Reinhart doughs since you have posted on them different times and had great results and also since I saw the recipes on Pizza Quest.  I find it intriguing how easy this dough is.  I havenít experimented enough yet to find really where this classic dough or country dough will take me, but so far I really like the results. 

I did notice the NY style pizza recipe on Pizza Quest, but didnít try that yet.  I would be interested after you try it, if you would post your results here on the forum.

I am glad you posted your results so many times on your threads.  :) This helped me decide to try these doughs.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2011, 03:28:47 PM »

There are a handful of us on the forum who have tried the recipe.

Peter

Peter,

Did you recently try the Reinhart NY style dough, that was on Pizza Quest?  I saw that recipe also includes a decent amount oil and honey/sugar. 

When I made my last attempt at the modified Reinhart Classic dough, I added the higher amount of honey and oil in again.  I liked how puffy and moist that crust became and also how that pizza crust tasted.  I am still curious how all that oil and honey work well together with the high hydration.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2011, 03:55:26 PM »
Did you recently try the Reinhart NY style dough, that was on Pizza Quest?  I saw that recipe also includes a decent amount oil and honey/sugar. 


Norma,

No, I tried the Reinhart NY style dough recipe from American Pie several years ago, and reported on my results, including my assumptions, at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17203.html#msg17203. As I have noted before, and more recently at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12278.msg116282/topicseen.html#msg116282, I have never considered the Reinhart NY style dough recipe as the best representation or manifestation of the NY style. But, that is just my take on the matter. Other members have reported more favorably than I, including John (JConk007), who professed his love for the recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg69631.html#msg69631 (you can see revised dough formulations using sugar/honey at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg69678.html#msg69678).

You might also check out the related threads (cited in the non-Lehmann compilation) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1924.msg17015.html#msg17015; http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,438.msg3802.html#msg3802; and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12238.msg115673.html#msg115673.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2011, 04:22:13 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the additional links.  I did read some of those, but not all of them. 

If anyone is interested in the formula I used, for my new attempt on Tuesday at Reply  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13347.msg132962.html#msg132962 this is the formula and also the pictures of the other modified Reinhart dough I used to try a different way.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2011, 04:26:41 PM »
the attempt with the second modified Reinhart classic dough 3/29/2011

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2011, 05:34:16 PM »
Yum!!!  I love the bottom of that one Norma!!

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2011, 05:47:41 PM »
Yum!!!  I love the bottom of that one Norma!!

John

John,

Thanks for saying you like the bottom of that pie, but either I didn't bake the pie enough during the parbake or after putting it back into the oven.  It did have a serious gum line.    ::)  I did take a picture of the gum line, but I don't think it can be seen from the picture.

Norma
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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2011, 06:15:40 PM »
John and Norma,

I am always interested in what you both have to say because, more so than any other professionals on the forum, you both have a solid foot in both camps--home pizza making and professional pizza making--and perhaps understand better than most of us what the respective challenges are and how they relate to both environments.

As best I can tell, although Peter Reinhart has studied the various pizza styles popularized in Italy and the U.S. and apparently has done consulting work for some pizza manufacturers, like Amy's, most of his recipes, including the Classic recipe, seem to be adaptations of commercial styles to a home pizza making environment, with a strong emphasis on using artisan principles like high hydrations, stretch and folds, autolyse and similar rest periods, etc. that have their origins in bread making. It would seem to me that such methods do not adapt easily to a commercial pizza environment, although possibly Norma might be able to make the transition work on a one-day-a-week basis as now exists at market. I am not so sure that it can be done painlessly if she were to decide to make pizzas embodying artisan principles on a six or seven day a week basis. BTW, that might also be true of her current preferment Lehmann dough formulation. Maybe that helps explains why there aren't many Brian Spanglers, Tom Douglases, Chris Biancos, Anthony Mangieris, Jeff Varasanos, and Peter Taylors out there. It even appears that some of the former pizzerias in Naples that used natural leavening systems have abandoned them.

I also have doubts about the scalability of pizza businesses that depend heavily on using artisan methods. I am not sure that the passion of the artisan can be easily taught to others who are not similarly motivated. I understand that Jeff Varasano has expansion plans, and I have learned not to doubt the man's capabilities, but I would like to see if he, or others like him, can succeed with their vision to replicate their businesses beyond a single unit.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2011, 08:59:10 PM »
Peter,

Although I experiment with pizzas at home and market, I am not sure at this point if I would be able to make the either classic or modified classic dough pizzas at market, even if I want to.  Right now there doesnít seem to be any problems with the modified classic/country dough wanting to overferment or the dough acting right, but when warmer weather comes in our area, I am not sure how these doughs will behave or even freeze, if there are leftover dough balls.  

I can understand why more commercial pizzerias donít use the techniques such as the Reinhart classic dough or even something like the preferment Lehmann dough.  I donít know if I could even do the preferment Lehmann dough on a 6 or 7 day basis.  It is much easier to do experimenting at home or take a few dough balls to market and find out how they work out, at least for me.

Since you have posted you understand Jeff Varasano has expansion plans, I also wonder how that will work out.  I have learned from my other small businesses, that no one will care for your own business or care about your product,  like you would.  At least that is my personal opinion.

I surely am not nearly as big as Johnís pizza business and donít have all the problems of running a big pizza business.  I would like to see what Johnís comments are about trying to operate a pizza business with something like the classic Reinhart dough or possibly another kind of dough that does need stretch and folds.

Norma
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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2011, 09:21:49 PM »
Norma,

In a home setting, one can tolerate an occasional failed dough. It might even be expected. However, in a commercial setting, failure can be extremely damaging to the business. I recall once talking to Pete Taylor about trying to come up with an emergency dough formulation for his business just in case something happened to his natural starter that rendered it unusuable. Brian Spangler has shown that it is possible to use stretch and folds, so it seems to me that using the Reinhart Classic dough formulation should be capable of adaptation to a commercial setting, especially if the workers are properly trained as to how and when to do this. 

Peter