Author Topic: Homemade Dough Conditioner  (Read 30161 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21995
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2011, 06:18:36 PM »
By your posting that I should try the same formula again with the blend, should I do two calculations on the expanded dough calculation tool, one with and one without blend?  The last time I only added the blend to one formula done on the expanded dough calculation tool.

Norma,

I think that I would use the same dough formulation for both dough balls but just add the amount of the dough enhancer blend to one of the dough balls. That means that the dough ball with the dough enhancer blend will weigh a bit more than the other dough ball without the dough enhancer blend. That way, the amount of water, yeast, salt and oil will be the same for both dough balls.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2011, 06:47:48 PM »
Norma,

I think that I would use the same dough formulation for both dough balls but just add the amount of the dough enhancer blend to one of the dough balls. That means that the dough ball with the dough enhancer blend will weigh a bit more than the other dough ball without the dough enhancer blend. That way, the amount of water, yeast, salt and oil will be the same for both dough balls.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for your explanation.  It makes sense that the ingredients would remain the same, except for the blend.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12694
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2011, 11:10:01 PM »
Norma,

What have you learned so far?

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2011, 11:40:30 PM »
Norma,

What have you learned so far?

CL

Craig,

I really havenít learned a lot so far.  The Lehmann dough I used the blend with did have a better taste in the crust, but that is about it up to this date.  I am going to try a higher percent of the blend for this coming week to see what happens.  It might take me awhile to see if anything drastically changes the crust or oven spring.  It might not ever happen.  I started out by going hog wild with using so many ingredients in the blend, so I really wonít have a way to gauge what might be the ingredients that might make a difference, if there are any.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2011, 06:35:27 PM »
These are pictures of how the Lehmann blend (7% blend) dough ball and the regular Lehmann dough ball looked today before I went to market.

The first two pictures are of the 7% blend dough and the second two pictures are of the regular Lehmann dough.  The blend Lehmann dough is fermenting differently, but is much softer than my last attempt.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2011, 06:51:56 AM »
I am linking part of this post at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13592.msg135758.html#msg135758  to this thread, because I talked to Bill Vertolli, Vice President, Sales Bakery Ingredients Division) http://www.watson-inc.com/ about getting a trial sample enzyme to maybe try in the blend at some point.  I canít remember the specific enzyme Bill said he would send a trial sample for me, but I thought, it sounded something like protactic (sp.?) .  That could be wrong, and Peter posted at Reply 27 it could be protease enzyme in the last part of his post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13592.msg135762.html#msg135762

Bill explained to me that the enzyme he would send me would be like comparing how a log would be cut into pieces, by a saw or chain saw, and therefore being able to easier manage than the whole log. If anyone is interested in what traditional baking enzymes (proteases) do this is a link to what they do. http://www.enzymedevelopment.com/pdf/TRADITIONAL%20BAKING%20ENZYMES-PROTEASES%20AIB%205-01.pdf

Norma
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 06:54:52 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2011, 10:54:01 PM »
The Lehmann dough with the 7% blend and the regular Lehmann dough were made into pizzas today.  The clear winner was the Lehmann dough with the 7% blend.  The crust had a much better taste (although I canít explain what made it so different), and it was moister in the rim.  The 7%  blend Lehmann dough also had a better oven spring.  Steve and I both agreed the blend Lehmann dough pizza was better.  The only thing that I had to do with the blend Lehmann dough pizza, was to put a pizza screen under the pie, because I thought it was browning too fast.  I didnít have to put a pizza screen under the regular Lehmann dough.

First set of pictures are the Lehmann dough with the 7% blend.  Second set of pictures are the regular Lehmann dough.  Last picture is the two pizzas side by side.  It can be seen on both dough balls how differently they fermented on the bottom of the dough balls.

I also received an email and telephone call today about another company that wants to send me samples of some enzymes.  I donít know what kind of enzymes to ask them about.

Norma  
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2011, 10:57:42 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2011, 11:00:50 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2011, 11:03:17 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2011, 11:05:47 PM »
more pictures

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2011, 11:08:33 PM »
end of pictures..blend Lehmann dough pizza slices on the right, in the last picture

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline chickenparm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Kentucky-Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2011, 11:17:06 PM »
Norma,those looks so damn good I want a slice right now!
 :pizza:
-Bill

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2011, 11:30:14 PM »
Norma,those looks so damn good I want a slice right now!
 :pizza:

Bill,

Thanks so much for your kind words!  :)  They both were good, but the blend pizza was better.  Wish I could have given you some to try.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21995
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2011, 11:11:33 AM »
Norma,

I agree that the basic Lehmann dough with the dough enhancer blend looks to be an improvement over the basic Lehmann dough without the blend. It's possible that some professionals might be aware of using dough enhancers but do not use them because of cost considerations. You would perhaps need to buy a lot of each ingredient in order to get the costs down to where their use might be justified in a commercial setting.

I think some of the improvements you got are readily explainable. For example, lecithin, baker's grade dry nonfat milk and vital wheat gluten are all well known to produce doughs with greater volume and resulting greater oven spring, even though the mechanisms are different in each case. What we may not quite know is the degree to which each contributes to those results. You would have to do individual tests with each of those ingredients, using the amounts, by baker's percents, recommended for those ingredients to get a better idea as to the extent of their contribution. Diastatic malt might also help produce more sugar, along with a malty flavor, and Maillard reactions and the like to add more flavor to the crust. The baker's grade dry nonfat milk should also contribute flavor to the finished crust. The lecithin and gelatin, together with the oil in the dough and maybe with increased natural sugars, most likely help retain more moisture in the dough, leading to a softer and more tender crumb. Other "natural" products that one might consider include whey, powdered ginger, and blends of milk-related products, such as the dairy blends such as offered by Dutch Valley, at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/129fb46d-3f5f-43a0-8aef-39f33e4d8a70.

FYI, you can see how King Arthur promotes the advantages of its brand of baker's grade dry nonfat milk at its website at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz. Note, in particular, the photos of the two loaves of bread in cross-section.

At this point, everything you used in your dough enhancer blend is a natural product with known benefits. It is always interesting to try new things to see how they work and whether they offer improvement over what you are now doing, but I don't know how far one can take this exercise. Many dough conditioners are designed for commercial applications that have little to do with pizza dough making and quality per se in a home setting, such as shortening mix times, improving the machining and molding and sheeting of doughs, or reducing staling of finished breads. Other conditioners are used to solve specific problems, such as "buckiness" of certain doughs (hence, the use of products like PZ-44), moisture retention (hence, the use of gels in par-baked crusts), extensibility problems (hence, the use of L-cysteine, glutathione and similar products), and avoidance of bromates (hence, the use of ascorbic acid and azodicarbonamide). As you know, these products are out of reach of home pizza makers because they are sold in bulk quantities at high cost. So, their use, while interesting and educational, has little practical value to most of our members.

The above said, do you have any idea as to where you want to take this project next? For example, might you try your dough enhancer blend with your preferment Lehmann dough such as you now use at market? Or might you increase the amount of blend to see where its outer limit of use is? Or add or subtract ingredients from your current dough enhancer blend?

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2011, 03:30:07 PM »
Norma,

I agree that the basic Lehmann dough with the dough enhancer blend looks to be an improvement over the basic Lehmann dough without the blend. It's possible that some professionals might be aware of using dough enhancers but do not use them because of cost considerations. You would perhaps need to buy a lot of each ingredient in order to get the costs down to where their use might be justified in a commercial setting.

I think some of the improvements you got are readily explainable. For example, lecithin, baker's grade dry nonfat milk and vital wheat gluten are all well known to produce doughs with greater volume and resulting greater oven spring, even though the mechanisms are different in each case. What we may not quite know is the degree to which each contributes to those results. You would have to do individual tests with each of those ingredients, using the amounts, by baker's percents, recommended for those ingredients to get a better idea as to the extent of their contribution. Diastatic malt might also help produce more sugar, along with a malty flavor, and Maillard reactions and the like to add more flavor to the crust. The baker's grade dry nonfat milk should also contribute flavor to the finished crust. The lecithin and gelatin, together with the oil in the dough and maybe with increased natural sugars, most likely help retain more moisture in the dough, leading to a softer and more tender crumb. Other "natural" products that one might consider include whey, powdered ginger, and blends of milk-related products, such as the dairy blends such as offered by Dutch Valley, at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/129fb46d-3f5f-43a0-8aef-39f33e4d8a70.

FYI, you can see how King Arthur promotes the advantages of its brand of baker's grade dry nonfat milk at its website at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz. Note, in particular, the photos of the two loaves of bread in cross-section.

At this point, everything you used in your dough enhancer blend is a natural product with known benefits. It is always interesting to try new things to see how they work and whether they offer improvement over what you are now doing, but I don't know how far one can take this exercise. Many dough conditioners are designed for commercial applications that have little to do with pizza dough making and quality per se in a home setting, such as shortening mix times, improving the machining and molding and sheeting of doughs, or reducing staling of finished breads. Other conditioners are used to solve specific problems, such as "buckiness" of certain doughs (hence, the use of products like PZ-44), moisture retention (hence, the use of gels in par-baked crusts), extensibility problems (hence, the use of L-cysteine, glutathione and similar products), and avoidance of bromates (hence, the use of ascorbic acid and azodicarbonamide). As you know, these products are out of reach of home pizza makers because they are sold in bulk quantities at high cost. So, their use, while interesting and educational, has little practical value to most of our members.

The above said, do you have any idea as to where you want to take this project next? For example, might you try your dough enhancer blend with your preferment Lehmann dough such as you now use at market? Or might you increase the amount of blend to see where its outer limit of use is? Or add or subtract ingredients from your current dough enhancer blend?

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for explaining each ingredients in the blend and what they could do. I would like to take this project a little farther and see if maybe a higher amount of the blend does give better results. I saw the blend dough did become softer than last week.  I would have thought the higher amount of blend would have made the dough drier than last week, but somehow the combination of ingredients did seem to work better to make the dough softer and also make the blend pizza better. What amount of the blend would you recommend for my next experiment?

 I donít want to purchase anything that is too expensive, but might try some of the leftover bakerís grade dairy whey, non-fat dried milk powder and ginger in one of my experiments with the Lehmann dough in a few weeks.  I see in the link you referenced from Dutch Valley, in the dairy blend they have about the same ingredients I do have here at home.  I also have buttermilk powder here at home.  I wonder if the buttermilk powder would have to be bakerís grade.  I might also try out the bakerís grade of baker's special dry milk (that I have here at home) alone in a higher amount than I tried before in a future experiment.  I donít think right now trying anything on my preferment Lehmann dough will give me any better results, but I could be wrong.  Right now I would like to just experiment on the basic Lehmann dough.  I donít know how other members will benefit from these experiments, but it is still interesting to me to see what happens.

I wanted to ask you another question, if you can answer.  I had emailed Caravan Ingredients http://www.caravaningredients.com/products.aspx and received an email response yesterday and also a return call on my answering machine about the email I had sent asking about maybe getting samples of enzymes. 

This is what the email said:

Good Morning Norma,
 
I received a call from our home office regarding your quest for Enzyme samples.  My questions is what are you trying to improve on your Pizza Dough?  I have several suggestions but would like to better understand what you would like to accomplish - - I can be reached at 540-604-8898 - - Thank you.

I saw in the link you have referenced before that Caravan Ingredients was one of the suppliers of the new enzymes for testing and the quote from that article from Caravan:

ďOur Pristine line of bases and functional ingredients use enzyme technology and are intended to create cleaner- label products,Ē said Troy Boutte, PhD, senior scientist, Caravan Ingredients, Lenexa, KS. Pristine Ferment 250 and Pristine Dough Side 250 are designed to be used together on the sponge and dough side of a bread formulation, respectively. They consist of an enzyme-based dough conditioner and strengthener.Ē

I know probably only a pizza operator would be able to get samples, but I would find it interesting to give one of more of these ingredients a try.  Although I would be able to speak the lingo, I donít know anything about any of these new ďcleanerĒ ingredients.  Do you know if I would talk to the person that emailed me and called me what I would tell them about what kind of problems I am having with pizza dough to be able to get a sample or samples to try?  If I can get any sample or samples, it would be just to find out what happens with them in pizza dough.  Maybe you think this would be taking this exercise too far, since the ingredients wouldnít be the natural ones I am using so far.  If that is what you think, I wonít contact Caravan.

I just had my blood taken for my annual check-up today.  If the numbers arenít good from the blood tests, I might not be doing all these tests or experiments.  I do eat too much pizza and experiment too much with pizzas sometimes.  I guess that is what happens when someone likes pizza so much and also likes to experiment.  :angel:

Thanks for helping me in this project!

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21995
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2011, 05:25:07 PM »
Norma,

I would like to take this project a little farther and see if maybe a higher amount of the blend does give better results. I saw the blend dough did become softer than last week.  I would have thought the higher amount of blend would have made the dough drier than last week, but somehow the combination of ingredients did seem to work better to make the dough softer and also make the blend pizza better. What amount of the blend would you recommend for my next experiment?


I think I would go to 10% and see what happens.

Quote
I see in the link you referenced from Dutch Valley, in the dairy blend they have about the same ingredients I do have here at home.  I also have buttermilk powder here at home.  I wonder if the buttermilk powder would have to be bakerís grade.


For the amount of buttermilk powder you would be using, I don't think that I would worry.

Quote
I wanted to ask you another question, if you can answer.  I had emailed Caravan Ingredients http://www.caravaningredients.com/products.aspx and received an email response yesterday and also a return call on my answering machine about the email I had sent asking about maybe getting samples of enzymes. 

....I know probably only a pizza operator would be able to get samples, but I would find it interesting to give one of more of these ingredients a try.  Although I would be able to speak the lingo, I donít know anything about any of these new ďcleanerĒ ingredients.  Do you know if I would talk to the person that emailed me and called me what I would tell them about what kind of problems I am having with pizza dough to be able to get a sample or samples to try?


On matters like enzymes, the people at Caravan are used to dealing with major companies that do mass production of baked goods, not curious home pizza hobbyists or even someone like yourself who is making pizza dough once a week at market. They may well be thinking that you are trying to solve a problem or looking to do something new with your product. There is no harm in asking for samples although they may want to target a particular problem or problems with their enzymes, not to just give you a bunch of samples to play around with, particularly if they do not see you as a future customer with high volume requirements. You might explore what enzymes they have and what they do and target one or more of them that you think would improve your pizzas, and ask for the enzyme samples that might best meet those requirements. As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #97 on: April 20, 2011, 06:39:18 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for your advise.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21826
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2011, 01:55:43 PM »
Norma,

As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Peter

Peter and anyone that might be interested,

I did email Edna at Caravan Ingredients and told her up front I am not a big pizza business and only operate one day a week.  I also told her about me liking to experiment with pizza dough with different ingredients to see what happens.  This is email I received this morning from Edna.

Hello Norma,
 
All companies start off small.  I had a bakery before I worked for Caravan and I understand how it feels to not get the attention of a large company.  It doesnít matter how big or small you are if you need help - - I will do what I can to help you.  I am in and out of plants until later this evening.  You call me even if itís after hours so that we can get some samples going for you.  Take care

Edna

I then called Edna early this afternoon a we spoke for awhile.  She said she would send me samples of any kind of ingredients I wanted to try in pizza dough.  I told Edna I was most interested in the new ďcleanerĒ products for pizza dough, but would also try other non-natural conditioners if she wanted to send samples.  Edna told me about many ingredients that can do many things for pizza dough.  The one that really seemed interesting to me was something that can be added to dough so a pizza would stay fresh and crispy when heated in the microwave.  She also said there was another that can help with stretching of doughs.  I told Edna I do use all natural products in my pizza dough now for market, but would like to just experiment to see how other natural or non-natural conditioners can help or hinder pizza dough.  I told Edna about me playing around with milk kefir in dough and how that makes dough leaven slower.  She said she does have ingredients that could ferment that faster.  Edna told me she could help me formulate a pretzel dough for pizza, if I wanted.  Edna also said she could even help me with take and bake pizzas.  Edna also told me about ingredients that can make frozen pizza dough so much better.

Edna told me of some great success stories of people that even started making products out of their garages and now are big companies.  The one person used some of Caravanís ingredients and was helped by Edna and now they are the people that formulated the muffins that Starbucks sells.  It was really nice to hear of those success stories. 

Edna was such a nice person and says she comes to my area each year.  She said she would like to meet me when she comes again.  Edna is going to email me the kinds of samples she is going to send me later today or tomorrow.  She said I should have the samples in about a week.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21995
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2011, 02:47:45 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for the update. You got a better response than I would have anticipated. It will be interesting to see what Caravan sends you.

Peter


 

pizzapan