Author Topic: Homemade Dough Conditioner  (Read 30728 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #120 on: April 26, 2011, 11:03:36 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #121 on: April 26, 2011, 11:06:50 PM »
pictures of dairy blend in Lehmann dough

Norma
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 11:15:06 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #122 on: April 26, 2011, 11:09:02 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #123 on: April 26, 2011, 11:11:24 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #124 on: April 26, 2011, 11:13:47 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2011, 10:18:17 AM »
Norma,

Both pizzas look pretty good but not as good, in my opinion, as your standard preferment Lehmann pizza. Can you tell us what you and Steve took away from your latest experiments?

I also noted from the photos that you apparently didn't need to use a pizza screen under the dough enhancer blend Lehmann pizza, even at 10%, but I see that you used a screen under the dairy blend Lehmann pizza, also at 10%. Was the dairy blend Lehmann pizza baking too quickly or developing a darker bottom faster than you wanted? The photos of the bottom crusts seem to suggest that the dairy blend Lehmann pizza developed a darker bottom crust than the dough enhancer Lehmann pizza.

Where do you go now with this project?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2011, 11:08:34 AM »
Norma,

Both pizzas look pretty good but not as good, in my opinion, as your standard preferment Lehmann pizza. Can you tell us what you and Steve took away from your latest experiments?

I also noted from the photos that you apparently didn't need to use a pizza screen under the dough enhancer blend Lehmann pizza, even at 10%, but I see that you used a screen under the dairy blend Lehmann pizza, also at 10%. Was the dairy blend Lehmann pizza baking too quickly or developing a darker bottom faster than you wanted? The photos of the bottom crusts seem to suggest that the dairy blend Lehmann pizza developed a darker bottom crust than the dough enhancer Lehmann pizza.

Where do you go now with this project?

Peter

Peter,

I donít think either of these pizzas looked as good as the preferment Lehmann dough pizza I normally make, but the taste in the crust of the regular blend was really good.  I think better than my normal preferment Lehmann dough crusts. I canít pinpoint what was so good about it, but it was different.  The bottom crust of the dough enhancer pizza was also crisper than my preferment Lehmann dough crusts.

What Steve and I took away from these last experiments were the regular blend at a higher percent of the formula flour did make a better pizza than my last two attempts. The oven spring even became a little better using a higher percent of the dough enhancer I have been trying. I am not sure if adding more regular blend in the formula will add or detract from the final crust of the Lehmann dough blend pizza.  I find it interesting how differently the bottom of this dough ferments (with the first dough enchancer) and when the dough is first made it is not soft, but then becomes softer after the cold fermentation.  I donít know which one of the ingreidents in the blend  causes that.  I gave Steve some of both of these dough enhancers, so if he has time to try either of them in his home oven with his Lehmann dough, it will be interesting to see his results.

The dairy blend Lehmann dough crust was developing a browner bottom crust quicker than I wanted.  That is why I used the pizza screen.  I donít know why the dairy blend crust wanted to become darker faster than the dough enhancer Lehmann dough crust.  It could have been the dairy products that caused the bottom to brown faster, but I am not sure. 
                                                                                                                                             
I am not sure where I want to go with this project.  I might add ginger powder to either of these dough enhancers or might try upping the percents of the blends in both of these test doughs.  What do you think the best approach would be for my next attempts?  I have no idea of how much ginger powder to try in either of the two dough enhancers.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #127 on: April 27, 2011, 02:04:26 PM »
Norma,

You might consider a larger dough batch with the dough enhancer to see if you get similar results. I would think that you might save a lot of time and effort if you are able to offer the dough enhancer version of the Lehmann NY style pizza at market, albeit maybe at slightly higher cost of production and provided, of course, that you can get into the market to be able to make the dough before your Tuesday gig.

I suspect that the pizza with the dairy blend browned faster because of the three dried milk products in the dairy blend, and a total use at 10%. In your dough enhancer blend, the only dairy product is the Hormel dry milk powder. It is used at a rate of about 42% of the total weight of the dough enhancer blend. Apparently that is not high enough to have a similar browning effect. Also, the dairy whey in your dairy blend is known to produce enhanced crust coloration. Dairy whey is not an ingredient used in your dough enhancer blend.

I'd like to see you use some dry ginger at some point. However, the way you would want to do it is to repeat the three-stage drill as given at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133849.html#msg133849 and make up a fresh batch with the ginger powder. It would perhaps take hours of math to try to figure out amounts and percentages if one were to just add some ginger powder to what remains of your original dough enhancer blend. It would involve far less work just to do the basic calculations as described in Reply 36 referenced above and make a fresh batch than to try to tackle the more involved math adding the ginger powder to the remaining dough enhancer blend. As an alternative, you could try the dough enhancer blend at Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136906.html#msg136906, maybe in a scaled down version. However, that would mean starting an entirely new experiment.

If you decide to try the ginger in a new dough enhancer batch, you might want to weigh an amount of it several times in order to get a weight for one teaspoon, just as you did with some of the other ingredients.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #128 on: April 27, 2011, 03:39:55 PM »
Norma,

You might consider a larger dough batch with the dough enhancer to see if you get similar results. I would think that you might save a lot of time and effort if you are able to offer the dough enhancer version of the Lehmann NY style pizza at market, albeit maybe at slightly higher cost of production and provided, of course, that you can get into the market to be able to make the dough before your Tuesday gig.

I suspect that the pizza with the dairy blend browned faster because of the three dried milk products in the dairy blend, and a total use at 10%. In your dough enhancer blend, the only dairy product is the Hormel dry milk powder. It is used at a rate of about 42% of the total weight of the dough enhancer blend. Apparently that is not high enough to have a similar browning effect. Also, the dairy whey in your dairy blend is known to produce enhanced crust coloration. Dairy whey is not an ingredient used in your dough enhancer blend.

I'd like to see you use some dry ginger at some point. However, the way you would want to do it is to repeat the three-stage drill as given at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133849.html#msg133849 and make up a fresh batch with the ginger powder. It would perhaps take hours of math to try to figure out amounts and percentages if one were to just add some ginger powder to what remains of your original dough enhancer blend. It would involve far less work just to do the basic calculations as described in Reply 36 referenced above and make a fresh batch than to try to tackle the more involved math adding the ginger powder to the remaining dough enhancer blend. As an alternative, you could try the dough enhancer blend at Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136906.html#msg136906, maybe in a scaled down version. However, that would mean starting an entirely new experiment.

If you decide to try the ginger in a new dough enhancer batch, you might want to weigh an amount of it several times in order to get a weight for one teaspoon, just as you did with some of the other ingredients.

Peter

Peter,

What I might try with the dough enhancer for this coming week is to put it into the preferment Lehmann dough.  I might make just one dough ball (of my regular preferment Lehmann dough), by starting a poolish on Friday and putting the dough enhancer into the final dough on Monday for one dough ball.  I can see the advantage of trying a larger batch of regular Lehmann dough to see what happens with a larger batch, but I really like a more Artisan looking pizza.  I know my preferment Lehmann dough for one dough ball is for a larger pizza than I have been testing, but I could still used 10% of the dough enhancer for the total final dough flour. 

In the next few days I will think about if I want to add ginger the dough enhancer.  I would like to see how a pizza would turn out with that, but donít know if I want to go though that drill again.  If I have time to go though the drill again, I might try adding ginger that way or use the alternative of using what was suggested by Saturday Coffee at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136906.html#msg136906 scaled down.

Thanks again for your advise,

Norma
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Offline Saturday Coffee

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2011, 09:56:35 PM »
Saturday Coffee,

Thanks so much for posting the Dough Enhancer you found. :)  Did you ever try that in dough?  I might try that recipe some time in the Lehmann dough to see what happens. I did hear ginger is good for dough.  I did buy some, but didnít try it yet. 

Norma
I have not tried it.  I tend to collect way more recipes than I could ever try.  I never heard of ginger being good for dough.  But just for good measure I may add ginger to my next batch dough.       


Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #130 on: April 30, 2011, 10:46:10 PM »
I have not tried it.  I tend to collect way more recipes than I could ever try.  I never heard of ginger being good for dough.  But just for good measure I may add ginger to my next batch dough.        

Saturday Coffee,

I also have many recipes I have never tried.

This is a homemade dough conditioner that Peter referenced before by tammysrecipes.  http://www.tammysrecipes.com/node/2814  It says in this dough enhancer of hers that yeast love ginger.  I never tried ginger either in dough.  If you try it out in pizza dough, I would be interested in seeing what kind of results you get.  Grainlady on this forum also does have other ideas for a homemade dough improver.  She says spices such as ginger, ground caraway, cardamom, cinnamom, mace, nutmeg, and thyme all improve yeast activity. Many bakers add a pinch of ginger to dough for this reason. http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cooking/msg032131336797.html This is also another article about different kinds of dough enchancerís, which include ginger at the breadmachinedigest.com http://www.breadmachinedigest.com/tips/dough-enhancers-and-how-to-use-them.php and http://www.breadmachinedigest.com/recipes/enhancer-recipes/super-bread-fresh-dough-enhancer.php

Thanks again for providing your recipe for a dough enhancer!  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 10:48:41 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2011, 09:22:00 AM »
Norma,

It really isn't that difficult to calculate how much ground ginger to use if you want to add some to your current dough enhancer blend.

According to the SelfNutritionData website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/spices-and-herbs/191/2, one teaspoon of ground ginger weighs 1.67 grams, or 0.055879 ounces. The Malisa website at http://concasse.blogspot.com/2009/04/natural-dough-conditioner-enhancer.html says to use 1/4 teaspoon of ground ginger for a loaf of bread. Previously, we assumed 3 1/2 cups of flour for a loaf of bread. So, for one cup of flour, the amount of ground ginger to use is (1/4)/(3 1/2) = 0.07143 t. That is a tiny bit over a 1/16 t. ("pinch") mini-measuring spoon. Its weight is 0.00399 ounces, or 0.11315 grams. So, if my math is right, adding the ground ginger to the rest of the ingredients and quantities of ingredients you used to make your original dough enhancer blend we get the following:

Amounts for One Cup (4.25oz) Better for Bread Flour
Lecithin granules: 0.24339oz/6.9g
Hormel high heat non-fat dry milk powder: 0.4562oz/12.93g
Knox gelatin: 0.025029oz/0.71g
Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten: 0.31746oz/9g
Diastatic malt (assume 1t/3 cups flour): 0.0293945oz/0.83g
Vitamin C: 0.005669oz/0.16g
Ground ginger:0.00399oz/0.11315g
Total weight: 1.0811325oz/30.65g

As you can see, the amount of ground ginger is so small that it doesn't move the needle much. Unfortunately, you would have to make a new batch just to include the ginger if you want to keep all of the numbers in proper relationship. You would also perhaps want to measure an amount of the new batch (e.g, 1/8-cup) to calculate the weight of one teaspoon so that you can convert the weight of the blend used in a given dough formulation using the expanded dough calculating tool into a volume measurement if that is more convenient than trying to weigh the expanded dough calculating tool amount on a scale.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2011, 10:06:51 AM »
Norma,

It really isn't that difficult to calculate how much ground ginger to use if you want to add some to your current dough enhancer blend.

According to the SelfNutritionData website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/spices-and-herbs/191/2, one teaspoon of ground ginger weighs 1.67 grams, or 0.055879 ounces. The Malisa website at http://concasse.blogspot.com/2009/04/natural-dough-conditioner-enhancer.html says to use 1/4 teaspoon of ground ginger for a loaf of bread. Previously, we assumed 3 1/2 cups of flour for a loaf of bread. So, for one cup of flour, the amount of ground ginger to use is (1/4)/(3 1/2) = 0.07143 t. That is a tiny bit over a 1/16 t. ("pinch") mini-measuring spoon. Its weight is 0.00399 ounces, or 0.11315 grams. So, if my math is right, adding the ground ginger to the rest of the ingredients and quantities of ingredients you used to make your original dough enhancer blend we get the following:

Amounts for One Cup (4.25oz) Better for Bread Flour
Lecithin granules: 0.24339oz/6.9g
Hormel high heat non-fat dry milk powder: 0.4562oz/12.93g
Knox gelatin: 0.025029oz/0.71g
Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten: 0.31746oz/9g
Diastatic malt (assume 1t/3 cups flour): 0.0293945oz/0.83g
Vitamin C: 0.005669oz/0.16g
Ground ginger:0.00399oz/0.11315g
Total weight: 1.0811325oz/30.65g

As you can see, the amount of ground ginger is so small that it doesn't move the needle much. Unfortunately, you would have to make a new batch just to include the ginger if you want to keep all of the numbers in proper relationship. You would also perhaps want to measure an amount of the new batch (e.g, 1/8-cup) to calculate the weight of one teaspoon so that you can convert the weight of the blend used in a given dough formulation using the expanded dough calculating tool into a volume measurement if that is more convenient than trying to weigh the expanded dough calculating tool amount on a scale.

Peter


Peter,

I had thought about adding ginger to my current dough enhancer blend, but as usual, I really was stumped on the math part. I always trust you math calculations. Thanks so much for figuring out the math part for me too add the ginger to my current dough enchancer blend.  I donít mind making another batch of dough enhancer blend to include the ground ginger.  I have the Mc Cormick brand of ground ginger at home.  Do you think it matters if I donít grind all the ingredients together.  I didnít do that before, but now thought after having using my Cuisinart spice and nut grinder to grind all the ingredients for the dough enhancer blend. Do you think grinding the ingredients for the blend in the Cuisinart would be better?

Hopefully we will see if adding ginger to the dough enchancer blend will make a better pizza crust.  I also did make the poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough on Friday for one dough ball.  Do you think I should just use the enhancer blend I used last week for that or should I include the enhancer blend with the ginger. I wonít be mixing the final dough until tomorrow.  I am going to make a regular Lehmann dough today with the added ginger in the enhancer blend.

Thanks again for your help!  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2011, 10:42:24 AM »
Norma,

Since the Malika instructions did not say to pulverize the ingredients in a grinder, I don't think I would do it. That is something that you might want to try in a future experiment. Offhand, I don't see anything in the ingredients list you are now using that would be materially hurt by grinding, at least a brief grinding (I am thinking here about the lecithin and vitamin C), but you would end up with a finer blend that would weigh more per unit volume (e.g., a teaspoon) than the ungrinded blend because of compaction dynamics. That would mean that you would have to weigh the ground version on your scale rather than using a volume measurement.

With respect to the preferment Lehmann dough, I think I would stick with your current blend so that we have another comparison with the other pizzas you made recently with the current blend. That way, we don't end up scratching our heads over whether certain results were due to the ground ginger rather than something else. Using the dough enhancer blend with ground ginger for a basic Lehmann dough should also allow another comparison with your prior pizzas made using your current blend without the ground ginger.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:44:26 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2011, 12:11:07 PM »
Norma,

Since the Malika instructions did not say to pulverize the ingredients in a grinder, I don't think I would do it. That is something that you might want to try in a future experiment. Offhand, I don't see anything in the ingredients list you are now using that would be materially hurt by grinding, at least a brief grinding (I am thinking here about the lecithin and vitamin C), but you would end up with a finer blend that would weigh more per unit volume (e.g., a teaspoon) than the ungrinded blend because of compaction dynamics. That would mean that you would have to weigh the ground version on your scale rather than using a volume measurement.

With respect to the preferment Lehmann dough, I think I would stick with your current blend so that we have another comparison with the other pizzas you made recently with the current blend. That way, we don't end up scratching our heads over whether certain results were due to the ground ginger rather than something else. Using the dough enhancer blend with ground ginger for a basic Lehmann dough should also allow another comparison with your prior pizzas made using your current blend without the ground ginger.

Peter

Peter,

It makes sense, now that I think about it, not to used the grinder, because then I would end up with finer blend that would weigh more per unit volume.

I also think your advise to use the enhancer blend I have used for the last few weeks in the preferment Lehmann dough is a good idea.  I can understand, how we wouldnít know what the results would have been with the regular enchancer blend without the ginger.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2011, 11:32:06 PM »
This post is to say the dough ball with the added ginger in the blend feels about the same as the other dough balls I have made in this thread, with the blend. The dough isnít really soft, as it was before, too.  The dough is kinda stiff.  I could smell a faint hint of the ginger when smelling it.  Since I didnít make this dough until this evening, I have left it sit at room temperature for a few hours to let it ferment some more.  The final dough temperature on this dough was 75.6 degrees F.

Picture of dough ball with ginger in the blend.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2011, 09:14:16 AM »
The preferment Lehmann dough with the 10% blend enhancer was mixed this morning.  I used 23.45 grams of the blend in the final dough.  I also added 4 more grams of water, since the formula I have for one dough ball is 61% hydration.  The preferment Lehmann dough with the blend added, also seems more stiff. 

Pictures of regular Lehmann dough ball top and bottom with added ginger in the blend, this morning. The dough ball with the blend with ginger is also fermenting differently, like the other doughs with the blend, as can be seen on the bottom of the dough ball. 3rd picture is of preferment Lehmann dough ball with the added blend this morning.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #137 on: May 04, 2011, 07:37:54 AM »
The preferment Lehmann dough with the 10% blend added to the final dough flour was made yesterday.  Since the poolish was made Friday (without the blend), and the 10% blend was only incorporated into the final dough on Monday, this dough was much harder to open.  I partially opened the dough and Steve finished opening the dough.  Both of us agreed that this dough ball was much harder to open than a regular preferment Lehmann dough ball.  Any of the blend dough balls I have made so far have cold fermented more than one day. 

The taste of the crust was better than a preferment Lehmann dough.  The rim also had good oven spring.  This pizza wasnít exactly 16" as my normal preferment Lehmann dough pizza are, because I now make my dough balls heavier, than when the formula was set-forth for a 16" preferment Lehmann dough ball for one pizza at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

It was interesting to see how this blend performed in the preferment Lehmann dough. 

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #138 on: May 04, 2011, 07:40:46 AM »
more pictures

Norma
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Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
« Reply #139 on: May 04, 2011, 07:42:58 AM »
end of pictures

Norma
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