Author Topic: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread  (Read 2376 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« on: March 31, 2011, 02:26:28 PM »
In the vein of the neapolitan tradition of dissolving the yeast in the brine:

http://www.foodnavigator.com/Science-Nutrition/Salt-stressed-yeast-leads-to-bigger-softer-bread-Study

The premise is a bit far off than the actual NP practice, but it is an interesting read.

John
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 03:29:53 PM by dellavecchia »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 02:52:06 PM »
Nice find John, interesting read for sure.   So it sounds like the salt stressed yeast dough with sugar had the shortest fermentation times. 

Chau

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 03:27:14 PM »
so if you dissolve the yeast directly in the salt water it makes a softer bread ?
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Offline thezaman

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 04:27:00 PM »
tried to get the article,but you have to purchase it. looks like the yeast is tempred in a 7 percent solution os salt foe 40 minutes that mixed the normal way.all of the doughs use sugar lowest is 8 percent.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 04:28:45 PM »
John,

Adding yeast to a salt solution (salt dissolved in water) appears to be consistent with the Neapolitan method. I once had an exchange with Marco (pizzanapoletana) on this subject, starting at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1085.msg9699.html#msg9699. At around the same time, Marco expanded on the subject at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1085.msg9695/topicseen.html#msg9695. He also talked about the need to have a salt with a high hygroscopicity, at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1531.msg14363.html#msg14363.

Peter

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 04:37:34 PM »
I always thought salt in direct contact would kill some of the yeast.

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 04:43:04 PM »
I always thought salt in direct contact would kill some of the yeast.


Mike,

Pizza mixes often include yeast and salt but in dry form. "Goody bags" containing yeast, salt and sugar can also be prepared in advance. Tom Lehmann discusses this topic in the excerpt in Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12596.msg121004/topicseen.html#msg121004.

Peter

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 09:50:31 PM »
John,

Adding yeast to a salt solution (salt dissolved in water) appears to be consistent with the Neapolitan method. I once had an exchange with Marco (pizzanapoletana) on this subject, starting at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1085.msg9699.html#msg9699. At around the same time, Marco expanded on the subject at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1085.msg9695/topicseen.html#msg9695. He also talked about the need to have a salt with a high hygroscopicity, at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1531.msg14363.html#msg14363.

Peter


you know Peter, wen i saw that title for the post i immediately i remembered what marco said about the yeast mixed directly to the brine... 
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2011, 10:30:57 PM »
So,  the way I understand the tests they have done,  used 7% salt dissolved in water.  At 2% salt,  my normal recipes would present apx. 3% salt solution.  Therefore,  I would have to reserve a little over half my formula water to be added at the time of mixing after the 40 minute stress.  Does that sound correct?  Anyone,  Peter?  -marc

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2011, 10:41:54 PM »
Marc,

How much water do you use in your normal recipes?

Peter


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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 11:49:06 PM »
He also talked about the need to have a salt with a high hygroscopicity, at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1531.msg14363.html#msg14363.

 
Peter,

This does not make sense to me as described. I find it almost impossible to believe that the hygroscopicity of salt varies materially regardless of the trace elements present. Nor do believe there is any material difference in the solubility in water (at any given temperature) of different NaCl salts. I'm wondering if he is actually talking about the speed at which the salt dissolves which would seem to be a mechanical rather than chemical property - a function of the ratio of surface area to volume. The Sicilian sea salt I've had in the past are relatively fine grained.

Did you ever get any more detail from him on this?

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2011, 08:34:29 AM »
Peter,  my normal percentages are

100 flour
60-62 water
2 salt
.2-.4 yeast, when not using starters

-marc

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2011, 09:59:31 AM »
This does not make sense to me as described. I find it almost impossible to believe that the hygroscopicity of salt varies materially regardless of the trace elements present. Nor do believe there is any material difference in the solubility in water (at any given temperature) of different NaCl salts. I'm wondering if he is actually talking about the speed at which the salt dissolves which would seem to be a mechanical rather than chemical property - a function of the ratio of surface area to volume. The Sicilian sea salt I've had in the past are relatively fine grained.

Did you ever get any more detail from him on this?


Craig,

Marco was often a reluctant poster on the forum. At the time in question, he said that he was writing and seeking to have published a book on authentic Neapolitan style pizza. As a result, he was reluctant to say too much on the forum for fear that people would not buy his book (BTW, the book never got published). I would try to read between the lines of many of Marco's posts and to fill in the blanks, and got chided for it when I was wrong, but Marco inevitably filled in many of the blanks himself.

Getting back to the salt issue, I interpreted the hygroscopicity issue like you--as a mechanical issue of how fast the salt gets dissolved in the water, perhaps related to particle shape and size. He did on another occasion allude to the brine issue in the context of tests that were apparently discussed in the Pyler book, at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1085.msg9700/topicseen.html#msg9700, so maybe that is where the hygroscopicity issue is covered.

Peter

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2011, 10:16:24 AM »
So,  the way I understand the tests they have done,  used 7% salt dissolved in water.  At 2% salt,  my normal recipes would present apx. 3% salt solution.  Therefore,  I would have to reserve a little over half my formula water to be added at the time of mixing after the 40 minute stress.  Does that sound correct?  Anyone,  Peter?  -marc

Marc,

If we are talking about a simple 7% salt solution, then I would say that you stated the matter correctly. Are you going to give it a try?

Peter

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2011, 11:45:24 AM »
Peter,  I will give it a try next time I have a get together and do an A/B with my normal method. -marc

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2011, 05:27:42 PM »
For Neapolitan-style pizzas, when not employing an autolyse, I have always done the following:

1. Formula water in mixing bowl
2. Dissolve formula salt into water (usually 2.75% to 3.00%, as percent of formula flour)
3. Dissolve levain into water
4. Add flour and begin mixing process

Generally use something along the lines of the following (all ratios to formula flour/american standard):

100% Caputo 00
60-64% Water
2.75% - 3.00% Salt
4% - 5% Levain

Never had any problems with rise, crumb, etc.

I speculate if salt, in the amounts used in most forms of pizzamaking, was that detrimental to the yeast, the salt would harm the yeast during the longer fermentation regimens many of us employ...regardless to when the salt was added during the mixing process.

Not sure I buy into the hygroscopic qualities of the salt being an issue...as Trapani Sicilian sea salt, Fluer De Sel and regular joe table salt have all seemed to work well. In fact, I don't really buy into the need to use any fancy salt at all during the formulation of the pizza. Although some larger sized crystals are nice for added pre-bake to the skin.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 05:31:33 PM by pizzablogger »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2011, 09:18:56 PM »
Good point Kelly.  I agree that the effect salt has on yeast occurs regardless of when the salt is added during the mixing regimen.   B/c they have a constant food source, it's obvious that yeast cells are proliferating at a much faster rate than they are dying off.

A good test to do would be to make 2 loaves of bread of the same weight, one with salt and one without salt to see if the one with salt does indeed make a softer and higher volume loaf.

Chau

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2011, 09:24:17 PM »
Chau,  in your example test,  I think one problem would be the loaf without the salt would not receive the strengthening effects that the salted on would.  I think that would prove the test inconclusive.  Better to do a stress no stress test IMO. -marc

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2011, 09:48:52 PM »
The effects of salt, and sugar as well, on the yeast in terms of osmotic pressure is discussed at http://www.theartisan.net/dough_development.htm. It would seem to me that if the salt is dissolved in the water at the outset its osmotic effect on the yeast would be less than if it is added later in the process. There is also an added advantage to adding the salt early because it acts as an antioxidant. It drove Prof. Calvel crazy when French bakers started adding the salt at the end of the knead.

Peter

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Study: Salt-stressed yeast leads to bigger, softer bread
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2011, 11:26:39 AM »
There is also an added advantage to adding the salt early because it acts as an antioxidant.
Peter

That's the reason I have done it that way.

Although I have since stopped using my KASM and am hand kneading again, so the temperature of the dough is rising very little, if any, as a result (less than 1 according to Mr Infrared Gun). But I've started incorporating an autolyse back into my Neapolitan style, so the salt is added after the flour, water and levain have gotten to know each other for 40 minutes or so. --K
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