Author Topic: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour  (Read 1870 times)

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Offline dmaxdmax

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Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« on: April 08, 2011, 01:01:16 PM »
Norma started a Dough Ingredients thread about a New Sprouted Wheat Flour:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13509.0.html

Since I've made more Reinhart Classic dough than any other I decided to try this flour in that recipe so I'll have something to compare to.

Ingredients:
510g      bread flour (75%)
170g      sprouted wheat flour (25%)
680g      total flour

536g      water (78.8% hydration)
1.25 tsp  IDY
2 tsp      kosher salt - mortons
2 Tbsp    olive oil
1 Tbsp    sugar

Water was calculated assuming bread flour at 75% hydration plus sprouted at 90%

Method:
Flours and water in Bosch mixer w/dough bowl - mixed to combine and sit while I gathered and measured other ingredients.
Add other dry ingredients.
Mix on speed 1 for 3 minutes.  Add olive oil while mixing.
Rest 5 minutes.
Mix on speed 2 for 30 seconds.
Rest 5 minutes.
Mix on speed 1 for 5 seconds.
Rest 5 minutes.
Mix on speed 1 for 5 seconds
Rest 5 minutes.
Remove from bowl to lightly oiled surface.  Scale, ball and place into 5 plastic containers.

After the initial 3 minutes the dough was a shaggy mess.  By the end it was beautifully smooth and easy to handle.  I plan to bake Sunday night which will be about 52 hours + 2 proofing.  I will reball one 6 hours ahead and probably leave the others until they come out of the fridge.  

Stay tuned.
Dave
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 10:19:01 AM »
At 24 hours the dough has doubled in size but is quite dry to the touch.  Not a bit tacky.  I wonder if I used too little water as I've never had dry Classic dough before.  Next check at 48...
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2011, 11:18:16 PM »
2 dough balls came out at 54 hours for 2 hours on the countertop.  I needn't have worried about it being dry - that was only on the surface.  It was sticky and a bit hard to handle.  It was not as strong as the Classic dough which I think I could make into a raincoat.  I got a small tear in my first skin but kept the second one together.

Might the reduced strength be a symptom of under-kneading?  Maybe this sprouted flour needs more work than standard bread flour.  Tomorrow or Tuesday I'll reball 6 hours ahead and see what happens.

Once made, the flavor of the dough was really nice.  I'd go so far as to say I prefer it to my usual.  However, the rim was another story.  There wasn't as much spring and it was dry and a little bready.  Not one crumb was left on a plate so it didn't stink but it wasn't great either.

The flour is supposed to handle 90-100% hydration.  I used 90 - In this situation would more water result in a moister crumb?  Olive Oil is already at 4% - can I go higher?

Thank you!

Dave

Picture 1 - Dough ball that I couldn't quite get taut
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2011, 11:19:04 PM »
Dry crumb
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 11:21:31 PM »
Final pizza that inside the rim wasn't half bad
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Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2011, 08:45:28 AM »
Dave,

Your sprouted wheat flour pizza looks really good.  :) I donít know what new sprouted wheat flour does in dough or if it does reduce the strength or if your drier dough was from under-kneading.  If you want, you could try more water in the formula to see what would happen.  Good to hear the taste of the crust was better than your usual. 

I donít know if you are anyone else is interested in reading this article, but the articles talks about using sprouted flours in bread making, under where it says: Using Sprouted flours in bread making.  http://www.breadlink.co.uk/technical.html   This article also  might help to understand about sprouting in wheat flours.  http://www.breadlink.co.uk/fallingNumber.pdf

Norma
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2011, 08:53:49 AM »
Norma,
Under-kneading produces drier dough?
There's so, so, so much i don't know!

Dave
 ???
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Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2011, 09:11:18 AM »
Norma,
Under-kneading produces drier dough?
There's so, so, so much i don't know!

Dave
 ???

Dave,

I don't think under kneading produces drier dough.  I just don't know how your new sprouted wheat flour acts in pizza dough.   If you go under Pizza Quest, you can see what Peter Reinhart posted about using  sprouted flour at: http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/peters-blog/44-peters-blog/179-report-from-asheville-part-one.html#comments   If you are interested and look what Peter Reinhart posted at Reply 3,  you will see he said he has a bread dough or focaccia he would send the recipe, if someone emails him.

I also have a lot to learn about flours and doughs.

Norma
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 09:13:34 AM by norma427 »
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Offline scott r

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2011, 09:01:40 PM »
Norma,
Under-kneading produces drier dough?
There's so, so, so much i don't know!

Dave
 ???

I think under kneading can produce a more crispy, and somewhat more "cardboardy" dough, so I agree with this statement

also, that pizza looks great!   It sort of has a new haven look to it

Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2011, 06:35:37 AM »
I think under kneading can produce a more crispy, and somewhat more "cardboardy" dough, so I agree with this statement


scott r,

I always appreciate your comments, because you have much more experience than I do in making doughs in different ways.  If you let your dough cold or room temperature ferment for long enough, how does under kneading make the crust more crispy and the dough somewhat cardboardy?  Does this also relate to what kind of flour is used?  I am trying to learn, like everyone here on the forum.

Different members say to just mix dough until it looks like the cottage cheese texture.  Do you advocate to mix until the dough is smooth?

Norma
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Offline scott r

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2011, 01:41:17 PM »
Norma, believe me, I am always learning and researching just like you, im no expert.    I think you probably have learned a lot more than you realize, but I think we will never be done!  The amount of kneading is definitely dependent on what kind of flour you use, but also very much on how hydrated the dough is.   I am not a huge fan of the no knead methods, and I do like the dough to be somewhat mixed, not only for the final dough texture but also for how it helps to stretch out a nice even dough.   If a dough is under kneaded there isn't a strong enough gluten mesh to trap the expanding air/water that makes the crust puff up to its full potential.  This has the effect of making a dough that is a little crispy/dense for my taste.    Of course if you knead too much the dough will begin to get tough and strangely have a similar end result as the under mixed dough, so a happy medium is where I want to be.   With some flours/hydrations/mixers this might mean just a few minutes of kneading, and with others it might be a very long knead.  Of course an autolyse and stretch and folds can really be your friend and help to achieve the best of both worlds (short mix time, yet fully developed gluten).   Your best bet to find the sweet spot is to pick a recipe and try to change nothing but your mix times for a few trials.   I often do this at commercial pizzerias by making them pull the dough out of the mixer after a few minutes, then a little more after another few minutes, then again....    The longer mixed doughs will heat up a little more, so I stagger putting these doughs into the cooler (if its a fridge rise dough).    I put the doughs that were mixed longer into the cooler first, and the ones mixed the shortest last.   This will hopefully compensate for fermentation that would potentially be sped up by the warmer dough.    If all goes well all the dough balls will have risen the same amount by the time I pull them out for testing.   For room temp doughs you just have to do a bunch of different batches with varying mix times with slightly different yeast amounts or water temps to keep the test fair.   Sometimes the cottage cheese look works, and sometimes it doesn't, so my advice to you would be to do the tests I described once you figure out what recipe you want to use.    Good luck Norma!  
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 11:50:21 PM by scott r »

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2011, 03:41:28 PM »
scott, thanks for the kind words!  I have to admit I think it's quite pretty and the toppings were wonderful but the crust was a disappointment.  Is it safe to assume more water and oil will yield a moister, more tender crust?

Thx
D
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2011, 05:48:38 PM »
Dave
I have never worked with sprouted wheat flour, so I have no comment as far as that goes.  I think your pizza looks very, very good.....but, before you start analyzing every aspect of what you like or don't like, remember, you only had one shot as far as oven temperature goes.  How would your pizza have changed in a hotter oven.  Just from the quick look at your pics, it looks as if you might have been able to bake it hotter...so you might have a excellent dough sitting there and never know....don't change too many things at once.   I'm interested in your next pizza, if you reball it sooner....you should see a stronger dough ball, and you will find it alot funner to open up.  Please post soon....I wanna see!!!!...and please get a pic of just the bottom!!!!

John

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2011, 10:03:16 PM »
John - Thanks for the compliment!  My oven maxes out at 525 and works best with the stone on the bottom rack.  In the middle or top the toppings finish way before the crust browns.

What a difference two days make! (I baked 2 @ 2.5 days and 3 @ 4.5 days)  Today's dough had much more oven spring and was somehow moister.  Balling 6 hours ahead yielded the most oven spring but my family actually preferred those that hadn't.  They said the 6 hour dough was too bready.

The biggest difference was probably due to my handling of the dough.  It was in round plastic containers that 2 hours before baking I turned upside down on a piece of parchment (lids removed) and left alone until it came time to prepare.  I lifted each container and had a puck of dough about 4 inches wide and 1.5 inches tall.  I dusted with bench flour and pressed it out into a disc with a thin center and modest rim.  There was no risk of tearing -- the dough was strong enough since I wasn't trying to lift it. 

For my next batch I'll change 2 things: increase the amount of sprouted flour from 1/4 to 1/3 and up the hydration rate so as to weight the sprouted at 100% rather than 90%.  I won't mess with knead times or olive oil amt.

Next time I'll take more pictures.

Dave
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Offline norma427

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2011, 11:28:14 PM »
Norma, believe me, I am always learning and researching just like you, im no expert.    I think you probably have learned a lot more than you realize, but I think we will never be done!  The amount of kneading is definitely dependent on what kind of flour you use, but also very much on how hydrated the dough is.   I am not a huge fan of the no knead methods, and I do like the dough to be somewhat mixed, not only for the final dough texture but also for how it helps to stretch out a nice even dough.   If a dough is under kneaded there isn't a strong enough gluten mesh to trap the expanding air/water that makes the crust puff up to its full potential.  This has the effect of making a dough that is a little crispy/dense for my taste.    Of course if you knead too much the dough will begin to get tough and strangely have a similar end result as the under mixed dough, so a happy medium is where I want to be.   With some flours/hydrations/mixers this might mean just a few minutes of kneading, and with others it might be a very long knead.  Of course an autolyse and stretch and folds can really be your friend  to sort of get the best of both worlds (short mix time, yet fully developed gluten).   Your best bet to find the sweet spot is to pick a recipe and try to change nothing but your mix times for a few trials.   I often do this at commercial pizzerias by making them pull the dough out of the mixer after a few minutes, then a little more after another few minutes, then again....    The longer mixed doughs will heat up a little more, so I stagger putting these doughs into the cooler (if its a fridge rise dough).    I put the doughs that were mixed longer into the cooler first, and the ones mixed the shortest last.   This will hopefully compensate for fermentation that would potentially be sped up by the warmer dough.    If all goes well all the dough balls will have risen the same amount by the time I pull them out for testing.   For room temp doughs you just have to do a bunch of different batches with varying mix times with slightly different yeast amounts or water temps to keep the test fair.   Sometimes the cottage cheese look works, and sometimes it doesn't, so my advice to you would be to do the tests I described once you figure out what recipe you want to use.    Good luck Norma!  

scott r,

I have learned a lot on this forum, but like you, I still think we will never be done learning.  I also think finding the right point as where the dough should be mixed, if often tough to understand.  Everything needs to come together right to be able to make exactly the kind of pizza anyone wants.  It takes quite a bit of learning to find the sweet spot for each kind of dough. 

I will continue to test doughs.

Thanks for all your great advice here on the forum!  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Reinhart Classic Dough with Sprouted Wheat Flour
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2011, 11:19:23 PM »
It's been awhile but I finally got around to attempt #2 at sprouted pizza.  I made dough with 1/3 sprouted and 2/3 bread flour.  Hydrated the sprouted at 100% and the bread @75% yielding an overall 83%.  I don't have bakers' % since I measure small amounts by volume but my ingredients were:

flour     680    g  100.0%
water     566    g  83.3%
yeast     1.25    tsp
salt     2    tsp
oil     2.5    Tbsp
sugar     1    Tbsp
flour + water   1,246   g
weight per ball   249   g
   in ounces      8.8   oz

Dough spent 2 days in the fridge + 1 day in a cooler (mothers' day meal evicted my project!)  The cooler started in the high 30's but by noon today was up to 45 so as soon as the stone was hot I went straight from cooler to parchment as described in my last post.  I think 1 additional hour would have wrecked them as they were just barely showing the first signs of collapse.  Thank goodness I rescued them because the pizza was amazing!

I pressed the dough out as thinly as possible leaving a medium sized rim.  (lots of bench flour as it was sticky as hell) The rim had great oven spring with big open bubbles and the center stayed thin yet soft and the way we like it.  I wish it had gone straight from fridge to bench since I'm *never* going to purposefully recreate the cooler step.

I used the method described in the first post but doubled the mix times after the initial 3.

My next batch will probably be 50/50 sprouted/bread flours.  

Dave
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 11:22:21 PM by dmaxdmax »
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