Author Topic: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?  (Read 18046 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2011, 10:11:59 AM »
Norma,

I'm pretty sure that the Goya brand of lard is like the Armour brand of lard, not like the one you have been using. I rarely use lard so, to be on the safe side, I keep it in my refrigerator. However, according to the labeling information on the box that I have, it says that refrigeration is not required. That is why hydrogenated fats, and also partially hydrogenated fats, including those based on oils like soybean and cottonseed oil, are favored for use in commercial formulations such as those you have been experimenting with over at the Bisquick website. Those fats are quite stable and have long shelf lives.

Olive oil is generally preferred over lard in baked goods because it is low in saturated fats. For example, a tablespoon of olive oil has 14 grams of total fat, of which 2 grams are saturated fat. You can see this at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/509/2. By contrast, a tablespoon of lard contains 13 grams of total fat, of which 5 grams are saturated fat. Lard also contains some cholesterol. You can see these numbers at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/483/2. It is the high saturated fat content of lard that has made it so unpopular for many years. Some saturated fat is required for dietary reasons but apparently there have not been the long term studies conducted to determine how much.

The amount of lard in one or two slices of pizzas is not that great if you use normal amounts, which you would want to use anyway since too much lard may have adverse effects on the structure of the crust and maybe even its taste and mouthfeel. For example, consider the following Lehmann dough formulation below for a 16" pizza with 3.5% lard and a thickness factor of 0.105:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Lard (3.5%):
Total (168.5%):
355.2 g  |  12.53 oz | 0.78 lbs
223.78 g  |  7.89 oz | 0.49 lbs
0.89 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.29 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
12.43 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
598.51 g | 21.11 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.105


As you can see from the above, the total fat for the entire pizza is 12.43 grams, or about a tablespoon. If the pizza is cut into eight slices, two slices would have a bit less than 3/4 teaspoon of total fat (and about 1.2 grams of saturated fat). One slice would be half of these numbers. If people watch their diets and don't otherwise overdo fat in their diets, eating a couple of slices of pizza using lard shouldn't be a big problem from a health standpoint. However, for some people, the mere mention of lard is enough to send them off running.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2011, 11:05:10 AM »
Norma,

I'm pretty sure that the Goya brand of lard is like the Armour brand of lard, not like the one you have been using. I rarely use lard so, to be on the safe side, I keep it in my refrigerator. However, according to the labeling information on the box that I have, it says that refrigeration is not required. That is why hydrogenated fats, and also partially hydrogenated fats, including those based on oils like soybean and cottonseed oil, are favored for use in commercial formulations such as those you have been experimenting with over at the Bisquick website. Those fats are quite stable and have long shelf lives.

Olive oil is generally preferred over lard in baked goods because it is low in saturated fats. For example, a tablespoon of olive oil has 14 grams of total fat, of which 2 grams are saturated fat. You can see this at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/509/2. By contrast, a tablespoon of lard contains 13 grams of total fat, of which 5 grams are saturated fat. Lard also contains some cholesterol. You can see these numbers at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/483/2. It is the high saturated fat content of lard that has made it so unpopular for many years. Some saturated fat is required for dietary reasons but apparently there have not been the long term studies conducted to determine how much.

The amount of lard in one or two slices of pizzas is not that great if you use normal amounts, which you would want to use anyway since too much lard may have adverse effects on the structure of the crust and maybe even its taste and mouthfeel. For example, consider the following Lehmann dough formulation below for a 16" pizza with 3.5% lard and a thickness factor of 0.105:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Lard (3.5%):
Total (168.5%):
355.2 g  |  12.53 oz | 0.78 lbs
223.78 g  |  7.89 oz | 0.49 lbs
0.89 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.29 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
12.43 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
598.51 g | 21.11 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.105


As you can see from the above, the total fat for the entire pizza is 12.43 grams, or about a tablespoon. If the pizza is cut into eight slices, two slices would have a bit less than 3/4 teaspoon of total fat (and about 1.2 grams of saturated fat). One slice would be half of these numbers. If people watch their diets and don't otherwise overdo fat in their diets, eating a couple of slices of pizza using lard shouldn't be a big problem from a health standpoint. However, for some people, the mere mention of lard is enough to send them off running.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for researching how much fat is in olive oil compared to lard and also saying you are pretty sure that the Goya brand of lard is like the Armour brand of lard.  I now understand why hydrogenated fat and partially hydrogenated fats, are favored for use in commercial formulation like I am doing on the Biquick pizzas with your “goody bag”. 

I wonder why more long term studies haven’t been done on lard.  I know lard has been given a bad rap, but since I have tried manteca I am interested more in lard.  I haven’t fried or baked with lard (except occasionally with Crisco), so trying a differnt type of lard was interesting.

Thanks also for the formula using lard like Goya. If I have time I am going to purchase some of the Goya lard and try the Lehmann dough in my UBM and see how those doughs compare with using the manteca I did use. 

I know the mere mention of lard does send some people off running, but I really don’t think it is that harmful in small amounts in a slice or 2 slices, especially if other areas of your diet is watched.  Generations ago people used lard in frying and baking and they didn’t seem to have many problems, but I guess they did exercise more too.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2011, 05:56:02 PM »
I went to the supermarket later this afternoon that said they carried the Goya manteca.  I did get a container of the Goya manteca.  This container of manteca was 5.29. I hope this is the right kind of lard (manteca) to try out in the “back to the future” UBM. The Goya manteca almost looks like Crisco, because it is white in color, but looks a lot fluffier. I am not sure when I want to make the dough with the Goya manteca, because the from the first time I tried the Lehmann manteca dough at market, until the second time I tried the first kind of manteca in the Lehmann dough, the taste of the crust did get better after the longer ferment when using the manteca. 

Pictures of Goya manteca to be used in Lehmann dough

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2011, 06:59:21 PM »
Norma,

The Armour brand of lard that I have in my refrigerator has the exact same wording for the ingredients as used on the Goya container except that the word HELP is inserted before the word PROTECT.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2011, 07:25:15 PM »
Norma,

The Armour brand of lard that I have in my refrigerator has the exact same wording for the ingredients as used on the Goya container except that the word HELP is inserted before the word PROTECT.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me your Armour brand of lard has the same wording for the ingredients.  At least I purchased the right product.  I don't think this Goya lard is going to make the Lehmann crust as good, but only time will tell.

Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2011, 04:50:00 AM »
I went to the supermarket later this afternoon that said they carried the Goya manteca.  I did get a container of the Goya manteca.  This container of manteca was 5.29. I hope this is the right kind of lard (manteca) to try out in the “back to the future” UBM. The Goya manteca almost looks like Crisco, because it is white in color, but looks a lot fluffier. I am not sure when I want to make the dough with the Goya manteca, because the from the first time I tried the Lehmann manteca dough at market, until the second time I tried the first kind of manteca in the Lehmann dough, the taste of the crust did get better after the longer ferment when using the manteca. 

Pictures of Goya manteca to be used in Lehmann dough

Norma

Hi Norma,
I think that what you have there is very similar to Crisco.  You'll find that it may make your dough feel & taste greasy.  Give it a try & see what you think.  I think it is better for pie dough than pizza dough.  Just my .00002 cents. ;)

Matt

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2011, 09:14:27 AM »
Hi Norma,
I think that what you have there is very similar to Crisco.  You'll find that it may make your dough feel & taste greasy.  Give it a try & see what you think.  I think it is better for pie dough than pizza dough.  Just my .00002 cents. ;)

Matt

Matt,

I also believe that I Goya manteca I purchased is almost like Crisco.  The only reason I tried to find this kind of lard (manteca), was because at Reply 39 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13668.msg137893.html#msg137893 Peter posted that is was possible that the liquid manteca had more flavor that the sanitized versions sold in most stores.  He then posted: To know for sure, I would perhaps have to run a side by side test, where the only difference is the lard.  That darn Peter gets me into more experiments, also, but the only way I will know if the two products are different is to do the test, on the Goya manteca.

I think your idea of how you use strutto is something like the manteca I had used before.  I always appreciate your advise.  You are a great pizza maker in every way!  :)

Peter,

I did take another picture of the other side of the Goya Manteca that is partly in Spanish and it says the same thing as your Armour lard, with even the same words as help and protect.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2011, 11:06:01 AM »
Norma,

The "original" Crisco would have been closer to the lard. As you can see from the ingredients list and Nutrition Facts for the current Crisco product at http://www.crisco.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?GroupID=17&ProdID=315, a lot has changed.

In a side-by-side test using the two forms of lard, I would actually prefer not to know which is which. That way you don't let any preconceived notions get in the way of assessing the results. It would be like one of the old Coke versus Pepsi challenges. Maybe you can get Steve to make the two doughs for you. Then, only he would know which is which. He could blindfold you as he makes the dough :-D. As an alternative, you could make the doughs and let someone else mark the containers (identical) with codes as to which is which.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 11:09:24 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2011, 01:19:26 PM »
Norma,

The "original" Crisco would have been closer to the lard. As you can see from the ingredients list and Nutrition Facts for the current Crisco product at http://www.crisco.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?GroupID=17&ProdID=315, a lot has changed.

In a side-by-side test using the two forms of lard, I would actually prefer not to know which is which. That way you don't let any preconceived notions get in the way of assessing the results. It would be like one of the old Coke versus Pepsi challenges. Maybe you can get Steve to make the two doughs for you. Then, only he would know which is which. He could blindfold you as he makes the dough :-D. As an alternative, you could make the doughs and let someone else mark the containers (identical) with codes as to which is which.

Peter

Now you tell me that the “original” Crisco would have been closer to lard..lol   I don’t have any “original” Crisco at home, but I do have Shurfine All-Vegetable Shortening, that I used at Christmas to make cookies.  It does contain a little more fat than the “original” Crisco. 

I think Steve and I can tell if the taste of the crust is different than my last two experiments with the manteca.  Those two crusts were so much more different than others I have made before.  I can understand how preconceived notions can get in the way like the Coke and Pepsi challenge, but I think just by the looks and smell of the Goya manteca, I don’t think I will have anywhere near the same results, when using the Goya manteca.             

I only think my UBM machine can make doughs for two pizzas, but am not sure, since I haven’t tested the UBM for a smaller dough batch.  I sure wouldn’t know what to do with 4 doughs balls to test in a weeks time. 

Nope, this time you aren’t going to give me more work!  :-D

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2011, 01:37:02 PM »
Nope, this time you aren’t going to give me more work!  :-D

Norma,

Haha. Well, I gave it the old college try :-D.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2011, 09:52:24 PM »
I posted earlier in this thread I would take a picture of how close the dough hook is on the UBM, the next time I made dough.  I made the dough with the Goya manteca this evening.  The UBM machine does make the dough easily.  I added the Goya manteca after I had mixed the other ingredients.  The dough did come out smooth and there wasn’t much to clean up in the UBM machine as can be seen in the pictures.

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2011, 02:09:19 PM »
Norma,

While I was researching the use of solid shortenings in pizza dough over at the PMQ Think Tank, I found a post by Tom Lehmann in which he discusses the effects of using solid shortenings in pizza dough as compared with oil. As you will see at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38155&hilit=#p38163, solid fats in doughs can lead to a somewhat chewier crust in a delivery pizza (but not in a pizza right out of the oven). I mention this in light of your testing the harder form of lard (the Goya brand) in a Lehmann dough. You would perhaps have to save a slice to eat later to see if you note an increase in chewiness of the crust. It would be interesting to see if the same thing occurs with a crust using the softer form of the lard (what we have been calling manteca even though manteca also means lard) that you have been testing.

Peter

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2011, 11:53:05 AM »
Norma,

While I was researching the use of solid shortenings in pizza dough over at the PMQ Think Tank, I found a post by Tom Lehmann in which he discusses the effects of using solid shortenings in pizza dough as compared with oil. As you will see at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38155&hilit=#p38163, solid fats in doughs can lead to a somewhat chewier crust in a delivery pizza (but not in a pizza right out of the oven). I mention this in light of your testing the harder form of lard (the Goya brand) in a Lehmann dough. You would perhaps have to save a slice to eat later to see if you note an increase in chewiness of the crust. It would be interesting to see if the same thing occurs with a crust using the softer form of the lard (what we have been calling manteca even though manteca also means lard) that you have been testing.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the link to what Tom Lehmann posted about using solid shortenings in pizza dough compared to oils.  I did save a slice of the Lehmann Goya manteca pizza.  I will reheat it probably tomorrow, to see if I notice an increase in the chewiness of the crust. 

I had save a slice of the other pizza made last week with the other manteca, but didn’t eat that slice.  I had been eating too many pizzas in the last week, so just gave that slice and others away.  When I tried the Mexican manteca again in a dough, I will save a slice to test for a chewer crust.  I did look on the web for the Mexican brand of manteca I had purchased (at a Mexican little store) and it seems like it is a restaurant that sells the first brand of Mexican manteca I had tried and really liked.  I had thought possibly the Mexican manteca could be bought wholesale.  At some point I might contact the Mexican restaurant in NJ, that I guess either makes the manteca or gets it elsewhere.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2011, 11:57:45 AM »
The Lehmann dough made with the Goya manteca (mixed in the UBM) was made into a pizza yesterday at market.  I thought the taste of the crust wasn’t as good, as the other manteca I used, but Steve thought it was about the same.  There wasn’t any slippery or oily taste when the crust was tasted.  The pizza baked about the same, when using the Goya manteca.  The only thing I noticed was the dough ball was harder to open and seemed drier than the hydration I used for this dough.  When I mixed the Lehmann Goya manteca dough, in the UBM, it seemed really soft.  I don’t know why the dough seemed drier.  The taste of the crust using Goya manteca was different than using olive oil.

I still have the extra Lehman dough ball with Goya manteca cold fermenting in my refrigerator and will watch how it ferments.  I probably will freeze that dough ball before it ferments too much.  I then will use that dough ball next week to compare how the second pie tastes when using the Goya manteca in the Lehmann dough.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2011, 12:00:45 PM »
more pictures

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2011, 12:02:22 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2011, 08:16:19 AM »
The second Lehmann Goya manteca dough ball, made in the UBM, was frozen this morning.  This post is just to show a picture of what the dough ball looks like on the top and bottom.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2011, 05:56:11 PM »
The Lehmann manteca dough ball that had been frozen Friday, was taken out of the freezer Monday and let to defrost in the my deli case until yesterday.  The taste of the crust, oven spring and moistness in the rim were very good.  This was the extra dough ball, from last week that also was made in the UMB (“back to the future machine”.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2011, 05:58:37 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2011, 10:08:38 AM »
I made dough in the UBM yesterday.  This time I made enough dough for two dough balls using the formula John (fazzari) set-forth at Reply 27 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.msg140122.html#msg140122, except I decreased the amount of IDY.  I plan to bake one of the doughs on Tuesday.  The hybrid Reinhart did mix well in the UBM and only took a few minutes. I only did a couple of stretch and folds on the finished dough (it is still kinda sticky) and will see on Monday if I need to do anymore stretch and folds or reballs. I did oil the dough balls before they were put in the plastic containers.

Picture of dough in UBM,  picture of one dough ball in container, and formula for the hybrid Reinhart.

Norma
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