Author Topic: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?  (Read 17932 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #100 on: June 15, 2011, 08:02:23 PM »
Do you have any suggestions about how I should try out the hybrid Reinhart dough for market?  I could make a small (5dough balls) batch of dough on Friday to see what happens.  I also like how everything worked okay with using the KABF too, so I guess I will keep the flour the same.  Do you think I should start another thread if the hybrid Reinhart dough will be tried at market, or should I stay on this thread?

Norma,

I think you have the right approach in mind. I would try to make the simplest and most direct hybrid Reinhart pizza that meets the rules you have to abide by at market. If you use the UBM mixer, I think it would be OK to report your results in this thread. However, I suspect that you will be using your mixer at market. In that case, I think I would start a new thread to report the results, as well as those for any other follow-on experiments that you might conduct.

It will be interesting to see how you and your taste testers will react to the new hybrid Reinhart recipe. To me, the hybrid Reinhart pizza looks to be somewhere between a typical Reinhart American style pizza as reported on in other threads and an elite NY style pizza. By contrast, your preferment Lehmann pizza leans more to the NY street style but with an artisan look to it.

It's good to hear that your customers have taken to your preferment Lehmann pizzas. That means that you can always fall back on that style of pizza pretty much whenever you want. It is also good to know that a thicker crust holds up better to reheating of slices. I hadn't thought of that benefit.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2011, 11:23:18 PM »
Norma,

I think you have the right approach in mind. I would try to make the simplest and most direct hybrid Reinhart pizza that meets the rules you have to abide by at market. If you use the UBM mixer, I think it would be OK to report your results in this thread. However, I suspect that you will be using your mixer at market. In that case, I think I would start a new thread to report the results, as well as those for any other follow-on experiments that you might conduct.

It will be interesting to see how you and your taste testers will react to the new hybrid Reinhart recipe. To me, the hybrid Reinhart pizza looks to be somewhere between a typical Reinhart American style pizza as reported on in other threads and an elite NY style pizza. By contrast, your preferment Lehmann pizza leans more to the NY street style but with an artisan look to it.

It's good to hear that your customers have taken to your preferment Lehmann pizzas. That means that you can always fall back on that style of pizza pretty much whenever you want. It is also good to know that a thicker crust holds up better to reheating of slices. I hadn't thought of that benefit.

Peter

Peter,

My taste testers already told me yesterday they liked the hybrid Reinhart, by John (fazzari) better than my preferment Lehmann dough pizzas, but I also have to please my customers. My taste testers have tasted most of my experimental pizzas, so they have know what kind of pizzas I have tried.  I usually ask my customers if they like the puffier rims or a flatter rim slices, and most say a puffier rim, but there are some customers that like fatter rims.  If I stay on the course of the hybrid Reinhart from John, the rims probably will all be puffier.  Johnís method has all to do with simplicity, and I am all for that too.  It would be great to be able to make an Artisan pizza without much hassle.  I am just wondering how I am going to be able to make that many dough balls and store them for the weekend without turning on my other pizza prep refrigerator.  If you remember, I do turn the pizza prep fridge off on Tuesday, when I am finished at market, so I donít waste electric.  Also, I use plastic bags to store my dough balls to save space.  I am wondering how much the dough balls, (hybrid Reinhart) will stick to the plastic bags.  There are always considerations to think about when trying new doughs in bigger batches.  

I could tell many stories about customers trying the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and how some potential customers, look at the pizzas, then come back to say how much they liked the pies. They also say they like the sauce and cheese I use.  At least the sauce and cheese would remain the same. I had one customer last week, that looked at the pizzas in the heated case, and said they have eaten pizza all over the world.  That person came back later and tried a slice, then said they would be back often, because the pizza met her expectations.  

The area I am in at market, isnít one of the busier areas. Many stands have folded in my area in the little over 2 years since I have been at that location.  People that come to market are tourists and regular customers.  Even many regular customers that come to market havenít gotten into my area yet, and I have been making pizzas for over two years.  Market is very big, and the area my husband and I had our other stand at was the busiest area, so I can understand how many customers havenít even seen my pizzas yet.  I have watched people at market for years and most of them have a pattern they follow.  They go to their favorite stands and then get out of market.  Market is so big, that if people would go all over market, it would take a long while. The area I was in before and outside are the busiest areas.  I would love to be able to put a small (extra) stand outside to sell my pizzas, but the headaches of having an extra stand, and having more employees is something I wouldnít look forward to. The market master and other people tell me I should have a pizza stand outside, in addition to my stand. I am going to try a Weber grill (kinda modified), in the next few months, to see if I can make pizzas on it.  I might be trying to do parties or go to festivals if that works out.  There are so many possibilities to try, but since I am getting older, I donít know how much I can handle, especially in the heat.  

I will start another thread after I made the hybrid Reinhart dough (5 dough balls) on Friday.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #102 on: June 16, 2011, 04:11:25 PM »
Norma,

I don't know of any way to hold dough balls for three days without refrigeration. You might have to use your pizza prep refrigerator if only to see if you like the results you get with a three-day hybrid Reinhart dough. It is going to be hard to match the results using a three day cold fermented hybrid Reinhart dough with a ten day dough. Still, the results with the three day dough may be revealing and tell you whether you are on the right track based on your taste tests. If you want to avoid using the pizza prep refrigerator, you might try making a one day dough balls and store them where you now store your dough balls. This would be a minimalist dough from a fermentation standpoint. However, I am fearful that such a dough would be more like a basic Lehmann dough but using sugar (honey, in your case) and possibly ending up with a more open and airy crumb because of the higher hydration. About the only other alternative I can think of offhand would be to make an ambient temperature fermented dough using a trivial amount of yeast. But such a dough would be at the mercy of a changing ambient temperature environment and would most likely be impractical and unrelaible for use at market, with issues that are more involved than with your current preferment Lehmann dough.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #103 on: June 16, 2011, 05:10:17 PM »
Norma,

I don't know of any way to hold dough balls for three days without refrigeration. You might have to use your pizza prep refrigerator if only to see if you like the results you get with a three-day hybrid Reinhart dough. It is going to be hard to match the results using a three day cold fermented hybrid Reinhart dough with a ten day dough. Still, the results with the three day dough may be revealing and tell you whether you are on the right track based on your taste tests. If you want to avoid using the pizza prep refrigerator, you might try making a one day dough balls and store them where you now store your dough balls. This would be a minimalist dough from a fermentation standpoint. However, I am fearful that such a dough would be more like a basic Lehmann dough but using sugar (honey, in your case) and possibly ending up with a more open and airy crumb because of the higher hydration. About the only other alternative I can think of offhand would be to make an ambient temperature fermented dough using a trivial amount of yeast. But such a dough would be at the mercy of a changing ambient temperature environment and would most likely be impractical and unrelaible for use at market, with issues that are more involved than with your current preferment Lehmann dough.

Peter


Peter,

My pizza prep refrigerator is off from Tuesday night, until I turn it on when I get to market Monday, but my big deli case is on all the time.  I have my cheeses, sodas, water and other things in the deli case all week.  There wouldnít be any problems trying out 5 dough balls (and putting them in the deli case), but what I worry about is if the hybrid Reinhart formula does work out, then I would need to have the pizza prep fridge on from Friday until Tuesday night, so I could store all the dough balls.  I also could take all the sodas and water out of the deli case, but that would be more work.

John posted at Reply 62 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.msg143196.html#msg143196 that if I experiment at all, I will find the doughs are good from day 1, and just get marginally better.  I wonder why that is.  I thought the crust would be better the longer it ferments.   I guess you are right that I will be able to determine, if I like a 3 day cold fermented dough.  Wouldnít it really be a 4 day cold fermented dough, if I count the reball on Monday and then cold ferment until Tuesday?

I really worry about a room temperature fermented dough at market, because of all the changing temperatures.  I also think that method would  be more problematic, than my current preferment Lehmann dough.
    
I know I can use 5 plastic container to store the dough balls, but am still wondering if they are going to stick to plastic bags.  I guess I only will know after I might try a few plastic bags and some plastic containers.  I had asked John in his thread at if he ever cold bulk fermented the dough at 63 Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.msg143208.html#msg143208

John then answered me at Reply 64   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.msg143213.html#msg143213 that he never tried that method, because he wanted to make the hybrid Reinhart as simply as he could.  I would have enough room in the deli case to cold bulk ferment in bigger Cambro containers, but donít know if that would be a good approach.
 
Norma  
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 05:19:27 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2011, 07:14:53 PM »
Norma,

I interpreted John's remarks to mean that the dough and pizzas get get better with each passing day. For example, I do not believe that he meant to say that a 10-day old dough would only be marginally better than, say, a one-day dough.

You are correct that if you make the dough on a Friday and use it on a Tuesday you will have four days of cold fermentation, not three days. It would depend on when on Friday (e.g., morning or evening) you make the dough and when on Tuesday you make pizzas from the dough. I would think that you would want to make the dough early in the morning on Friday to get the maximum fermentation time.

With respect to bulk fermenting and then dividing and scaling into individual dough balls versus doing the division up front, Peter Reinhart has discussed both methods at the fornobravo website devoted to his recipes. However, virtually all professionals who use cold fermentation use the latter method. What makes the other method doable is the considerably higher hydration of the Reinhart dough as compared with a typical NY style dough. This is an area where some experimentation might be useful. As part of the experimentation you should learn whether the dough balls can be stored in bags without sticking or becoming malformed when trying to remove them from the bags.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2011, 09:31:45 PM »
Norma,

I interpreted John's remarks to mean that the dough and pizzas get get better with each passing day. For example, I do not believe that he meant to say that a 10-day old dough would only be marginally better than, say, a one-day dough.

You are correct that if you make the dough on a Friday and use it on a Tuesday you will have four days of cold fermentation, not three days. It would depend on when on Friday (e.g., morning or evening) you make the dough and when on Tuesday you make pizzas from the dough. I would think that you would want to make the dough early in the morning on Friday to get the maximum fermentation time.

With respect to bulk fermenting and then dividing and scaling into individual dough balls versus doing the division up front, Peter Reinhart has discussed both methods at the fornobravo website devoted to his recipes. However, virtually all professionals who use cold fermentation use the latter method. What makes the other method doable is the considerably higher hydration of the Reinhart dough as compared with a typical NY style dough. This is an area where some experimentation might be useful. As part of the experimentation you should learn whether the dough balls can be stored in bags without sticking or becoming malformed when trying to remove them from the bags.

Peter

Peter,

I must have mistaken what John meant, when he posted that they get marginally better each day.  I have to read over Johnís hybrid Reinhart thread again to see how long he really cold fermented his dough balls in his hybrid Reinhart experiments. 

I can understand I should make the dough balls early in the morning Friday, to give the dough the maximum cold ferment time.  Really this week for 5 dough balls it wonít really matter, because I know I wonít be trying to make the pizzas until Tuesday afternoon.  I might freeze 2 of the hybrid Reinhart dough balls to see how they freeze and then try the frozen dough balls the next week.  I know the preferment Lehmann dough balls can be frozen and used the next week. 

In the next few weeks I might try bulk cold fermenting, in addition to dividing and balling right away.  I guess even if the dough balls becomes malformed or sticky, with the reball they might be okay.  The only way I will know is to try.

Norma 
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #106 on: June 17, 2011, 01:18:18 AM »
Norma and Peter
With every Reinhart recipe I tried, the longer the ferment the better the pizza...and for some reason it was always about day 3 that I thought they were excellent.  And then I experimented with this hybrid process, and for some reason you don't have to wait to day 3 to get excellent pizza....I wish I knew why...it's just an observation...these doughs are pretty good after day 1, and then get marginally better (You're right about my explanation Peter) the longer they ferment.  Is the dough on day 7 better than the dough on day 2...yes, but it's not by a huge amount.

John

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #107 on: June 17, 2011, 09:14:31 AM »
John,

The hybrid Reinhart recipe you posted is very close to a basic Lehmann NY style recipe but for the high hydration and the use of honey in lieu of sugar. Also, you used more yeast but it was not materially more. Norma cut your yeast quantity in half, which is more in line with the Lehmann doughs. Norma usually controls finished dough temperature so unless she allowed the dough balls to warm up before cold fermenting, her dough balls should ferment more slowly than yours. When I worked on the geriatric Lehmann doughs with fermentation periods of up to over 20 days, I found that the dough was usable after one or a few days but the pizzas got better once you crossed the one week mark or thereabouts. The key is to keep the dough fermenting very slowly. I did not use any sugar in my doughs, even though Tom Lehmann says that it is OK to use sugar for a dough that is to ferment beyond about three days, but the honey should keep feeding the yeast during its fermentation activity. But, overall, what you experienced with your hybrid dough is consistent with what I experienced with the Lehmann doughs.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 09:37:16 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #108 on: June 17, 2011, 10:00:29 AM »
Norma and Peter
With every Reinhart recipe I tried, the longer the ferment the better the pizza...and for some reason it was always about day 3 that I thought they were excellent.  And then I experimented with this hybrid process, and for some reason you don't have to wait to day 3 to get excellent pizza....I wish I knew why...it's just an observation...these doughs are pretty good after day 1, and then get marginally better (You're right about my explanation Peter) the longer they ferment.  Is the dough on day 7 better than the dough on day 2...yes, but it's not by a huge amount.

John

John,

With all your experimenting and finding the hybrid Reinhart does give excellent pizza after day 3 do you think I should adjust my yeast up to your amount?  I am going to make 5 doughs balls today using your hybrid Reinhart method. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #109 on: June 17, 2011, 10:03:45 AM »
Peter,

What are your thoughts about the amount of yeast I should use today for my first experiment with 5 hybrid Reinhart dough balls for the best results?  I already figured out 5 dough balls on the expanded dough calculating tool, using 0.25, but could change that.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #110 on: June 17, 2011, 10:14:40 AM »
What are your thoughts about the amount of yeast I should use today for my first experiment with 5 hybrid Reinhart dough balls for the best results?  I already figured out 5 dough balls on the expanded dough calculating tool, using 0.25, but could change that.

Norma,

You will of course get more fermentation activity using more yeast than 0.25% IDY but that might mean having to deal with a more wet and extensible dough, possibly including doing some stretch and folds to keep the dough balls in line, all of which you know how to do as well as anyone. If you will be in a position to do these sorts of things, you might be able to get away with 0.50% IDY. But the only way to know for sure is to try out the dough with more yeast. At 0.25% IDY, the dough will behave somewhat better in the sense that it will ferment more slowly and not require as much handling. As you know, normally, in a commercial setting, the usual practice is not to handle the dough during fermentation. You are essentially combining an artisan practice with commercial cold fermentation. For a small volume of dough production, that seems doable. It most likely would not be if you were making, say, a hundred dough balls.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 10:23:15 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #111 on: June 17, 2011, 11:17:56 AM »
Norma,

You will of course get more fermentation activity using more yeast than 0.25% IDY but that might mean having to deal with a more wet and extensible dough, possibly including doing some stretch and folds to keep the dough balls in line, all of which you know how to do as well as anyone. If you will be in a position to do these sorts of things, you might be able to get away with 0.50% IDY. But the only way to know for sure is to try out the dough with more yeast. At 0.25% IDY, the dough will behave somewhat better in the sense that it will ferment more slowly and not require as much handling. As you know, normally, in a commercial setting, the usual practice is not to handle the dough during fermentation. You are essentially combining an artisan practice with commercial cold fermentation. For a small volume of dough production, that seems doable. It most likely would not be if you were making, say, a hundred dough balls.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for you thoughts on what I should try.  For my first experiment I will use 0.50% IDY and see what happens.  I will start a new thread later today, after the hybrid Reinhart dough is mixed.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #112 on: June 17, 2011, 07:37:33 PM »
This post is to clarify about what I thought was wheat in the pictures in Reply 89  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13668.msg142766.html#msg142766
I first stopped at an Amish farm this afternoon and asked an Amish lady and her son what was growing in the fields near their house.  Neither of them knew.  I thought I was dumb, because I didnít know, but for Amish not to know was a surprise to me.  The fields of what I thought was wheat werenít near the Amish farm.  I then stopped at Hodeckerís farm (where they grow and sell celery).  The field across from their home, that I thought was wheat, was barley the lady said.  The lady told me the fields on the side of the road where their home is are winter wheat.  I asked the lady if I could buy some of the winter wheat to try, but she said all of it is sold to the combines. She said in a couple of weeks the combines will come and maybe I can get some wheat from the combine drivers.  She had a small box of wheat on her porch, that she said was for Vacation Bible School, but gave me one little piece.  I now know  that side of the road is where all the wheat is.  I still am confused about what is wheat and what is barley, because they look the same to me.   :-D

These pictures are the one piece of wheat, the wheat fields, and other fields of I don't know what.  I really canít tell, unless a farmer tells me which is wheat and which is barley.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 902
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #113 on: June 17, 2011, 11:08:57 PM »
Peter
Thanks for your information about your use with Lehman dough!!

Norma
I thought about you and your market all day today and have some thoughts I want to share.  The idea of bulk fermenting your dough just simplifies the whole process more...because you are combining the scaling and balling step, with the reballing step.  So, if it were me, and let's say I anticipated making 20 pizzas today, I would probably scale and ball maybe 30 or 40 pizzas (maybe 8 hours prior to opening)...knowing that what I don't sell today will be perfectly good tomorrow.  This also should free up space for you because bulk fermentation would take up less room.

As for yeast percentage...I have stuck with .5% from the beginning and will not change.  I looked back on some of my experiments and remembered I used a dough after only 9 hours fermentation and it was pretty darned good.  Even though you were impressed with a 10 day old pizza, your limited space forces you to look for a solution where the fermentation process is faster rather than slower.  My experiments (all using .5% yeast) showed the pizzas were very good after 24 hours.  Let me be blunt....I would be proud to sell and serve a 24 hour fermented hybrid pizza....and I know I could sell a ton of them.  When I first started experimenting and noted that the pizzas were great after 1 day, I reasoned the dough could not last much longer than 2 or 3 days....and I was absolutely wrong...because I have had fantastic pizzas as old as 7 days.....and that's why I contacted you....because the process is so simple, there is no waste and its a fantastic product.  Of course, you don't know me, and so it behooves you to experiment.......I know it's doable.

Best wishes
John

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2011, 07:31:10 AM »
Peter
Thanks for your information about your use with Lehman dough!!

Norma
I thought about you and your market all day today and have some thoughts I want to share.  The idea of bulk fermenting your dough just simplifies the whole process more...because you are combining the scaling and balling step, with the reballing step.  So, if it were me, and let's say I anticipated making 20 pizzas today, I would probably scale and ball maybe 30 or 40 pizzas (maybe 8 hours prior to opening)...knowing that what I don't sell today will be perfectly good tomorrow.  This also should free up space for you because bulk fermentation would take up less room.

As for yeast percentage...I have stuck with .5% from the beginning and will not change.  I looked back on some of my experiments and remembered I used a dough after only 9 hours fermentation and it was pretty darned good.  Even though you were impressed with a 10 day old pizza, your limited space forces you to look for a solution where the fermentation process is faster rather than slower.  My experiments (all using .5% yeast) showed the pizzas were very good after 24 hours.  Let me be blunt....I would be proud to sell and serve a 24 hour fermented hybrid pizza....and I know I could sell a ton of them.  When I first started experimenting and noted that the pizzas were great after 1 day, I reasoned the dough could not last much longer than 2 or 3 days....and I was absolutely wrong...because I have had fantastic pizzas as old as 7 days.....and that's why I contacted you....because the process is so simple, there is no waste and its a fantastic product.  Of course, you don't know me, and so it behooves you to experiment.......I know it's doable.

Best wishes
John

John,

Thank so much for thinking about my market stand and me so much!  I appreciated you thoughts about bulk fermenting simplifying the hybrid Reinhart pizza more.  My limited space has always been a problem, plus all the changing temperatures though out the year.  My small pizza stand is only 8'x13', so even getting all my stuff in such a small space was challenging.  Since I only really sell pizzas one day a week, it makes thing more challenging to keep my costs down.  That is the reason my pizza prep fridge is off all week.  Even my hot water heater is off all week.  I only keep the deli case on all week.  I always go to market on a Friday to clean really good and then make the preferment for the Lehmann dough I use now.  Mondayís is when I make my final dough, divide and ball and get other things ready for Tuesday.  

You are right that we did really like the 10 days cold fermented hybrid Reinhart pizza, but I am looking to try options of a shorter fermentation.  Since I know you have tried so many experiments with Reinhart doughs, and have showed the results openly on the forum, I trust your instincts, experiments, and thoughts.  The only reason I changed your formula down to 0.25% IDY was I wanted to see what would happen with how the dough would ferment and also see how the final pizzas turned out.  I always like to watch how any dough ferments.  I have always like to watch your experiments, and at first wondered how you could make your dough balls last so long and they wouldnít overferment.  That part of your experiments really interested me, in addition to your great looking pizzas.  You have proved that using 0.50% IDY does work with the hybrid Reinhart dough and pizzas.  

Since you have been in the pizza making business for so many years, I would always trust your opinions on how a pizza is.  I am only a little over 2 years in learning about pizza, so I still have a lot to learn.

After I try the experiments on the dough balls I made yesterday, in the coming weeks I will try a bulk cold ferment to see what happens.

Thanks for your help and contacting me about how you thought the hybrid Reinhart would be a good Artisan pizza for my little market stand!  :) After I basically learned how to make pizza (which took me quite awhile to understand), I then was looking for a better pizza for my market stand.  The journey always go on, in trying to understand everything about any style of pizza.  Thanks also for the best wishes.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 07:33:55 AM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2011, 10:17:35 AM »
Norma,

I generally agree with John. What you will have to find is the right balance between the amount of yeast and total fermentation time, in the context of the conditions, including temperatures, at market and the rules imposed at market. I think your objective is to try to come up with something that is better than the preferment Lehmann dough, and hopefully easier to accomplish, whether through bulk fermentation or forming individual dough balls. Only you and your taste testers will be able to judge whether the final product is better or not. What is hard for me to say is whether you should go for a fast fermentation or a slow fermentation. There is a fair amount of flexibility because of the high hydration, the large amount of yeast, and the opportunity to use stretch and fold and similar dough handling methods. The only way I know how to zero in on the optimum configuration is to experiment with the different variables. Your latest effort will be valuable if only to tell you if you are on the right track.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #116 on: June 18, 2011, 12:20:40 PM »
Norma,

I generally agree with John. What you will have to find is the right balance between the amount of yeast and total fermentation time, in the context of the conditions, including temperatures, at market and the rules imposed at market. I think your objective is to try to come up with something that is better than the preferment Lehmann dough, and hopefully easier to accomplish, whether through bulk fermentation or forming individual dough balls. Only you and your taste testers will be able to judge whether the final product is better or not. What is hard for me to say is whether you should go for a fast fermentation or a slow fermentation. There is a fair amount of flexibility because of the high hydration, the large amount of yeast, and the opportunity to use stretch and fold and similar dough handling methods. The only way I know how to zero in on the optimum configuration is to experiment with the different variables. Your latest effort will be valuable if only to tell you if you are on the right track.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts again about the hybrid Reinhart dough.  The dough for the 5 dough balls I made yesterday were  sticky and it took me longer than usual to get the dough out of my mixer.  Even while trying to divide and weight the dough, it was harder than using the preferment Lehmann dough. My mixer, scale, and tools I used were harder to clean up.  I donít know what will happen when temperatures get warmer again, if I will need to decrease the yeast or not.  If I had a place that had somewhat controlled temperatures and humidity, things would be a lot easier.  My objective is to be able to make something better than the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.  I really hate to leave the preferment Lehmann dough though, because I have learned a lot about it and it can make many different products from that dough.  I really donít understand why the higher hydration dough has more flexibility. Will fast or slow fermentation affect higher hydration doughs more?  

I can understand why different experiments will be needed to see if different variables will help or not.  

One thing for sure that would be easier, is John did find this dough can be used right out of the fridge.  That really surprised me. I thought the pizzas would bubble in the middle. At least I wouldnít have to worry about dough balls sitting at different ambient room temperatures, and maybe fermenting too much in the heat.  I donít even know how the hybrid Reinhart pizzas will reheat or stay in my heating holding cabinet.  

It is a lot easier to do tests on 5 dough balls. than to make the dough and pizzas. consistently the same week after week.  

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #117 on: June 18, 2011, 01:39:06 PM »
Norma,

In general, and all else being equal, a high hydration dough will ferment faster than a low hydration dough. The increased amount of water permeates the dough more fully and allows the fermentation activity to occur faster. The flexibility that I mentioned is due to the higher hydration and accompanying opportunity to use stretch and folds or similar dough handling methods. In a straight dough method, a hydration of over 70% will usually result in a sticky, hard to handle dough and difficulties in division and scaling, as you experienced. That is where John's suggestion that you bulk ferment the dough and do the division and scaling later, while the dough is likely to be on the cool side and can be subjected to stretch and folds, is likely to work better than the straight dough method where the dough division and scaling are done up front. I also believe that being able to use the dough to form skins while the dough is still cold is due to the increased hydration of the dough. You are also less likely to experience extensibility problems. Fortunately, you have not experienced severe bubbling in the finished crust using the dough cold. As you know, Tom typically advises against using the dough cold although I am sure that he knows that there are cases where doing so does not lead to bad results. Tom rarely gets on anyone's case who is achieving good results, however they are achieved. I am paraphrasing it a bit but I believe Tom says that if something works for you, it is good or right for you.

Each dough formulation comes with its own sets of challenges, and those challenges can vary from one dough formulation to another. The straight dough, cold fermentation methods that Tom Lehmann usually espouses for commercial applications try to minimize problems at all of the different stages up to the point of use. Once you start to introduce preferments, natural starters, and artisan methods to the process, new issues are created that have to be addressed. This is not usually a problem in a home setting where failures and losses usually do not hurt anyone but can become problems in a commercial setting. Usually a solution can be devised if one is patient. If your next bake proves successful, I am confident that we will find ways to correct any problems you experience.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21967
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2011, 04:51:20 PM »
Norma,

In general, and all else being equal, a high hydration dough will ferment faster than a low hydration dough. The increased amount of water permeates the dough more fully and allows the fermentation activity to occur faster. The flexibility that I mentioned is due to the higher hydration and accompanying opportunity to use stretch and folds or similar dough handling methods. In a straight dough method, a hydration of over 70% will usually result in a sticky, hard to handle dough and difficulties in division and scaling, as you experienced. That is where John's suggestion that you bulk ferment the dough and do the division and scaling later, while the dough is likely to be on the cool side and can be subjected to stretch and folds, is likely to work better than the straight dough method where the dough division and scaling are done up front. I also believe that being able to use the dough to form skins while the dough is still cold is due to the increased hydration of the dough. You are also less likely to experience extensibility problems. Fortunately, you have not experienced severe bubbling in the finished crust using the dough cold. As you know, Tom typically advises against using the dough cold although I am sure that he knows that there are cases where doing so does not lead to bad results. Tom rarely gets on anyone's case who is achieving good results, however they are achieved. I am paraphrasing it a bit but I believe Tom says that if something works for you, it is good or right for you.

Each dough formulation comes with its own sets of challenges, and those challenges can vary from one dough formulation to another. The straight dough, cold fermentation methods that Tom Lehmann usually espouses for commercial applications try to minimize problems at all of the different stages up to the point of use. Once you start to introduce preferments, natural starters, and artisan methods to the process, new issues are created that have to be addressed. This is not usually a problem in a home setting where failures and losses usually do not hurt anyone but can become problems in a commercial setting. Usually a solution can be devised if one is patient. If your next bake proves successful, I am confident that we will find ways to correct any problems you experience.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining what you meant by flexibility and using the stretch and folds or reballs.  I will see how the 5 dough balls handle on Monday and can understand where Johnís suggestion to do the bulk ferment and then do the division and scaling later, might work, because the dough would be colder.  I know I have taken some higher hydration dough balls out of the fridge (at home), and did some stretch and folds or reballs on them and they were much easier to handle, than doughs that were just made. 

I know Tom does frequently say, it something works donít mess with it (or something similar).  That is a great saying.  :)

Great to hear if there are any problems with the hybrid Reinhart doughs or pizzas, there is help.

Happy Fatherís Day to you and all the other Fatherís on the forum!

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22072
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trail doughs in the Universal Bread Maker..any ideas?
« Reply #119 on: June 18, 2011, 05:57:05 PM »
Happy Fatherís Day to you and all the other Fatherís on the forum!

Thank you, Norma.

Peter