Author Topic: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday  (Read 48808 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #225 on: May 25, 2011, 07:56:06 AM »
Peter,

I will reply to your above posts, when I have time to digest all you have researched. 

Norma

There was another Mystery Pizza made yesterday at market by Steve and me that did turn out successful.  It was made using Betty Crocker Banana Nut mix, in combination with Peter’s goody bag.  I used 20 grams less water in the mix.  The dressing for this Sukie pizza was orange marmalade.  After the bake, (additional dressings) the blueberries, strawberries, bananas, and chopped English walnuts were added.  The fruits were dusted with Fruit Fresh to keep the bananas from browning, while sitting at room temperature. The crumb of this Sukie pizza was very moist and light.  This Sukie pizza was made within 3 hrs. from start to finish.

In my opinion, Sukie would have been proud of this pizza.  :) Steve, other stand holders, a few customers and I enjoyed this dessert Sukie pizza.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #226 on: May 25, 2011, 07:58:42 AM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #227 on: May 25, 2011, 08:01:16 AM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #228 on: May 25, 2011, 08:03:53 AM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #229 on: May 25, 2011, 08:05:58 AM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #230 on: May 25, 2011, 08:10:48 AM »
I did get a reply from Laura at Abitec yesterday.  This is the email.

Hello Norma,
 
Your sample request was sent to me as I lead the Food, Flavor and Nutrition business at Abitec.
 
With regard to the best product for your application in a dry mix, the Sterotex products are best.  They are a very fine powder and would blend easily into a dry blend and stay in suspension.
 
As far as which one, it will depend on the other ingredients, when you want the oil to melt, baking conditions, etc.  The different products are formulated to have different melt points.
 
For example,   Sterotex HM melts b/w 153-156F, while Sterotex K melts b/w 178-183F.
 
The best thing to do would be to get samples of both and try them in your formula.
 
If this is agreeable, I will be happy to submit a sample request and have 8oz of each shipped.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #231 on: May 25, 2011, 10:59:03 AM »
I replied to Laura at Abitec this morning: This was my reply and then Laura’s reply back to me.

Hello Laura,
 
Thanks you for recommending what the best product would be for the application I am trying in a dry mix.  When I was experimenting with different pizza crust mixes and other baking mixes to see where my experiments would lead me, I had tried some General Mills products, such as their Original Bisquick, muffin mixes, and biscuit mixes, among others.  I wanted to ask you if you know what kind of product they might use in their various products?  I used some of the GM products I mentioned, in combination with other ingredients, and from those experiments did produce a good pizza crust mix.  Would a big company like GM be using something like the products you were telling me about in your email, in their mixes? 
 
I would appreciate if you would request samples of Sterotex HM and Sterotex K for me to try in the pizza crust mix. 
 
I am not sure when I want the oil to melt.  (at what temperatures)

Norma

Hi Norma,
 
Yes, large baking companies do use these types of products so they should work in your mix,
 
I will have 8 oz samples of both products sent to you.
 
Good luck with your formulas!

Laura

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #232 on: May 25, 2011, 06:38:11 PM »
Norma,

This morning, I called the foodservice section of the Clabber Girl Corporation in Terre Haute, Indiana (812-232-9446) and spoke with a sales person (Eric) about their commercial chemical leavening systems. What I was hoping to learn is whether Clabber Girl makes the specific chemical leavening system consisting only of the baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) and monocalcium phosphate (MCP). The answer is no. However, Clabber Girl does make and sell each of those ingredients separately. The end user would have to devise the formulation (percentages of ingredients) and do the blending. I also learned a few more things about these ingredients. One is that even for the slow-acting acids there is some activity during the mixing (e.g., batter) stage. The percent activity will depend on the particular acid selected. Apparently, both the fast-acting and slow-acting acids can be selected to achieve a particular chemical activation profile to meet the particular needs of the end user, whether it is a pancake mix or a pizza crust mix. There can even be some encapsulation of ingredients, including the baking soda, to suit a particular end user application.

With respect to the use of cornstarch, I was told that it has to be listed as an ingredient if is used. However, if the chemical leavening system is used with flour, as is the case with the GM products we have been studying, the flour itself can act as a buffer to prevent or minimize premature chemical activity.

When I asked whether the retail version of the Clabber Girl baking powder would work for a premix application as you have been exploring, I was told that it perhaps would work but it would not be optimum in his opinion. He said that he was not a food scientist so he couldn't tell me what would be the optimum chemical leavening system. We would have to talk with a Clabber Girl food scientist.

If you decide to proceed further with your pizza crust premix experiments, I was told that you should have no problem getting samples of the three leavening ingredients from Clabber Girl.

Peter
Norma,

I found another company, called GCIngredients, that also is in the commercial chemical leavening business. So, I called their San Antonio office at 210-240-2657 and spoke with Ingrid (http://www.gcingredients.com/contactus.html). From both Ingrid and the GCI website, I learned that GCI is in the business of creating and blending chemical leavening systems. So, if you decide to do more experimentation with chemical leavening systems, GCI might be an option for you to consider. Ingrid pointed out to me that the kind of experiments you are doing usually require a fair amount of trial and error to get to the desired end objective.

Peter
Norma,

As you know, one of the things that has been nagging me is whether it is permissible in ingredients lists to list sugar when the actual sugar form is dextrose. So, over the past weekend, I sent an email to the Food and Drug Administration posing the following question:

In food ingredients lists, is it permissible to use the term "sugar" in lieu of "dextrose", or must the term "dextrose" be used if the sugar form is actually dextrose?

Today, I received the following reply:

Dear Peter, no.  Sugar has a standard in the regulations under 21 CFR 101.4 For purposes of ingredient labeling, the term sugar shall refer to sucrose, which is obtained from sugar cane or sugar beets in accordance with the provisions of 184.1854 of this chapter.

So, absent error or intentional misleading of the public, if "sugar" is listed as an ingredient in a list of ingredients, it means sucrose (ordinary table sugar is sucrose).

I'm glad I tried the approach of sending an email to the FDA. In the past, I would search for hours trying to find things at the FDA website, often without success (even though I learned a lot from all of my reading while trying to find things). I may use this approach again if I can't find answers on my own after giving my searches a fair chance.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing all the research on the Clabber Girl chemical leavening systems. It is interesting to hear that Clabber Girl does sell each of the ingredients separately. I wonder how the end user (like I am trying to do in a pizza mix) would know how much of each ingredient to use in the mix, by percents.  It is also interesting to hear you learned more about the ingredients and how the percent of activity will depend on what ingredients are used.  I wonder how I am ever going to be able to figure out what presents of each ingredient to try in a pizza mix.  I wonder if GM is using some kind of encapsulation of ingredients.   It is also interesting to hear that cornstarch must be listed in the ingredients if it is used.  Flour alone, must be a good buffer from what you learned.  I wonder how I would talk to a Clabber Girl food scientist.  I am not that well versed in stating everything correctly, but I could give it a try.  I will contact Clabber Girl for samples and also for more knowledge about their ingredients they sell.

Thanks for also finding and researching about  GC Ingredients, Inc.  I will also contact them to see if I can purchase small amounts for testing or get some samples.

I do know that the one thing that have been bugging you so far, was if it was permissible to use actual sugar when the ingredient listed was dextrose.  Good thinking on your part to think about emailing the FDA.  8) That saved you a lot of time, and you received a timely reply.  You just never know where searches will take you. 

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #233 on: May 26, 2011, 10:05:47 AM »
Norma,

Those are all good questions. Knowing what I know about what you have been doing, if you were to talk to the food scientist at Clabber Girl (his name is Pat Jobe, at pjobe.@clabbergirl.com), or an expert at any other place for that matter, I think that there would be several questions he or she would ask you, from which he or she might be able to offer you technical assistance.

First, I think the food scientist (or other expert) would want to know what you want, or are trying, to do. In your case, I believe that you would like to come up with a pizza crust mix based on a formulation of your own design (or with help from someone else) and doing all of your own blending and mixing without using "goody bags" and the like combined with commercial products. Given your success to date using the General Mills mixes for different types of products, all of which contain a specific chemical leavening system, you might even want to use the same chemical leavening system in your own formulation.

Second, the food scientist would want to know when the dough is to be used, that is, whether it is to be used soon or considerably later. There might also be other questions as to other ingredients to be used in the formulation, such as yeast (which can affect fermentation performance and time) and acidulants like buttermilk powder that can affect the balance of the ingredients used in the overall chemical leavening system. These questions are important since the answers can dictate the types of acids to use and their performance rates (e.g., slow-acting or fast-acting) and also how the specific ingredients are to be balanced to neutralize the alkaline component (the baking soda) and avoid off flavors because of an imbalance. You can see an example of a chemical leavening system from a baker's percent standpoint at the bottom of the page at http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C12/C12Links/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm. The duration of use of the dough might also dictate the percent of the chemical leavening system to use (although that is something that might best be determined through testing).

In your case, you have been making doughs with fermentation periods of a few hours. Just about every pizza crust mix that I have studied is intended to be made and used within a period of minutes, not hours, and their formulations are designed with this in mind, as by using L-cysteine, dextrose, etc. This presents an important decision point for you since the duration of use of the dough can define the market. For example, consumers have been conditioned to making pizza doughs from mixes in a matter of minutes. They may not be interested in waiting up to four hours to make their pizza, no matter how much better the pizza might be. I suspect that the consumer market for the short-term mixes is considerably larger than the market for the long-term mixes (which is perhaps more in the province of large chains like Shakey's, Round Table and Godfather's Pizza that use pizza dough pre-mixes). Of course, it might be possible to have two formulations to cover both markets. Or you might decide to develop and use a dough formulation strictly for your own purposes to offer unique products at market (like some of your dessert style pizzas), rather than marketing it to consumers, in which case you would have complete control over the way the product is used. In such a case, any dicussion of market segmentation becomes moot.

I think you have a good enough grasp of the basic chemistry involved to be able to hold your own in discussion with the food scientists and other specialists engaged in chemical leavening systems. They also know that most end users of their products are not chemists. However, as comfortable as you may become with technical aspects of leavening systems, in discussions with professionals on this matter you will want to be prepared to answer questions that might relate as much to the business side of what you would like to do as the chemistry involved since the answers can dictate the course of your formulation. There will also be a fair amount of testing and experimentation with formulations and preparation times. I also believe that you will find that food scientists knowledgeable about specific parts of a formulation, such as the chemical leavening system under discussion or partially hydrogenated oils to use in a mix, aren't likely to be able to develop an overall formulation for you to use. They might, however, give you some insights in how GM and others develop their formulations or parts of them.  

With respect to your question as to whether cornstarch is used by GM in its chemical leavening system, my best guess after discussing these matters with the people I spoke with recently, is no.

For a good discussion on some of the topics mentioned above, see http://gcingredients.com/leavening.html.

Peter


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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #234 on: May 26, 2011, 11:48:04 AM »
It is also interesting to hear that cornstarch must be listed in the ingredients if it is used. 

It is an allergen.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #235 on: May 26, 2011, 02:08:34 PM »
Norma,

Those are all good questions. Knowing what I know about what you have been doing, if you were to talk to the food scientist at Clabber Girl (his name is Pat Jobe, at pjobe.@clabbergirl.com), or an expert at any other place for that matter, I think that there would be several questions he or she would ask you, from which he or she might be able to offer you technical assistance.

First, I think the food scientist (or other expert) would want to know what you want, or are trying, to do. In your case, I believe that you would like to come up with a pizza crust mix based on a formulation of your own design (or with help from someone else) and doing all of your own blending and mixing without using "goody bags" and the like combined with commercial products. Given your success to date using the General Mills mixes for different types of products, all of which contain a specific chemical leavening system, you might even want to use the same chemical leavening system in your own formulation.

Second, the food scientist would want to know when the dough is to be used, that is, whether it is to be used soon or considerably later. There might also be other questions as to other ingredients to be used in the formulation, such as yeast (which can affect fermentation performance and time) and acidulants like buttermilk powder that can affect the balance of the ingredients used in the overall chemical leavening system. These questions are important since the answers can dictate the types of acids to use and their performance rates (e.g., slow-acting or fast-acting) and also how the specific ingredients are to be balanced to neutralize the alkaline component (the baking soda) and avoid off flavors because of an imbalance. You can see an example of a chemical leavening system from a baker's percent standpoint at the bottom of the page at http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C12/C12Links/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm. The duration of use of the dough might also dictate the percent of the chemical leavening system to use (although that is something that might best be determined through testing).

In your case, you have been making doughs with fermentation periods of a few hours. Just about every pizza crust mix that I have studied is intended to be made and used within a period of minutes, not hours, and their formulations are designed with this in mind, as by using L-cysteine, dextrose, etc. This presents an important decision point for you since the duration of use of the dough can define the market. For example, consumers have been conditioned to making pizza doughs from mixes in a matter of minutes. They may not be interested in waiting up to four hours to make their pizza, no matter how much better the pizza might be. I suspect that the consumer market for the short-term mixes is considerably larger than the market for the long-term mixes (which is perhaps more in the province of large chains like Shakey's, Round Table and Godfather's Pizza that use pizza dough pre-mixes). Of course, it might be possible to have two formulations to cover both markets. Or you might decide to develop and use a dough formulation strictly for your own purposes to offer unique products at market (like some of your dessert style pizzas), rather than marketing it to consumers, in which case you would have complete control over the way the product is used. In such a case, any dicussion of market segmentation becomes moot.

I think you have a good enough grasp of the basic chemistry involved to be able to hold your own in discussion with the food scientists and other specialists engaged in chemical leavening systems. They also know that most end users of their products are not chemists. However, as comfortable as you may become with technical aspects of leavening systems, in discussions with professionals on this matter you will want to be prepared to answer questions that might relate as much to the business side of what you would like to do as the chemistry involved since the answers can dictate the course of your formulation. There will also be a fair amount of testing and experimentation with formulations and preparation times. I also believe that you will find that food scientists knowledgeable about specific parts of a formulation, such as the chemical leavening system under discussion or partially hydrogenated oils to use in a mix, aren't likely to be able to develop an overall formulation for you to use. They might, however, give you some insights in how GM and others develop their formulations or parts of them.  

With respect to your question as to whether cornstarch is used by GM in its chemical leavening system, my best guess after discussing these matters with the people I spoke with recently, is no.

For a good discussion on some of the topics mentioned above, see http://gcingredients.com/leavening.html.

Peter

Peter,

I did email Clabber Girl about trying to formulate a pizza crust mix last evening, and I did ask them many questions.  If I don’t get a follow-up email, I will call them and asked to talk to an expert or food scientist, probably next week.  I also asked for samples of their baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) and monocalcium phosphate (MCP).  I also emailed Ingrid at GCIngredients and asked her the same questions, and also if I could obtain samples to try in the pizza crust mix, I would like to try to develop. 

I did get an email from  Laura at Abitec, that I should get samples of Sterotex products in the next 10-14 days.

I do want to try to come up with a pizza crust mix without a “goody bag”. I would like to do all my own blending and mixing.  The leavening system in the Betty Crocker products in combination with your “goody bag”, seems to work out well, so I can understand that would be a good place to start.  I see in the link you have provided the baker’s percent for a typical mix are: A typical double action baking powder may have 12 % of MONOCALCIUM PHOSPHATE, 30 % of Sodium Bicarbonate, 23 % of Sodium Aluminum Sulfate, 35 % of Corn Starch.  That would be without the cornstarch.

Thanks for preparing me to know what to ask about what I am trying to do, in formulating a pizza crust mix. I will get my questions ready and think about what I should ask.  I don’t really understand chemistry, but basically do understand the technical basic chemistry and what I would want to ask and find answers to.  Making different pizzas have taught me more about leavening systems, but a pizza crust mix would be a lot different.

I can understand most home pizza makers  would want to make the dough fast, and not watch it like I did in my experiments.  Everything is instant now, so I would need to come up with some kind of formulation to make the pizza crust mix fast, just like the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix, but hopefully it would be better.  I know this whole project will take a lot of trial and experimenting, but at least I will learn more about using a different kind of leavening system for a pizza crust mix.  In the end, I don’t know if I will be successful or not, but there isn’t hurt in trying.

It is a little to early to know if I want to make dessert pizzas at market, but so far, the stand holders, some customers, Steve and I really do like them.  That would be a whole different ball game, because then I would need to source more ingredients and understand how they would work in a pizza crust mix.  The mixes I just purchased the other day were only .85 on sale, so I might purchase some more this week, to try in more experiments.  If I decide I wanted to make dessert pizzas at market, I still could buy a box of those mixes and just add the “goody bag”.  At least that would make a dessert pizza a lot easier, and the crust shouldn't be too expensive.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #236 on: May 26, 2011, 02:10:20 PM »
It is an allergen.

CL

Craig,

I didn't know if cornstarch was an allergen or not, but it looks like it is.  http://allergies.about.com/od/foodallergies/a/cornallergy.htm

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #237 on: May 26, 2011, 03:59:43 PM »
Norma,

With all of the samples you now have and will be getting, you might find it more profitable to divide the samples into small packets and sell them at market instead of pizza. Just make one pizza a day on Tuesdays at market and use that as a basis to keep ordering up more and more samples.

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #238 on: May 26, 2011, 06:19:41 PM »
Norma,

With all of the samples you now have and will be getting, you might find it more profitable to divide the samples into small packets and sell them at market instead of pizza. Just make one pizza a day on Tuesdays at market and use that as a basis to keep ordering up more and more samples.

Peter

Peter,

Lol, who would buy the samples and then buy their own other ingredients, to make their own pizzas?  :-D At least my customers want a ready to eat freshly made pizza.  I did try to sell cans of 6 in 1 and not one person bought any.  I still didn’t develop a successful take and bake pizza. I posted before, I am running out of room to store all my flours, other ingredients, and now all the samples

I did talk to Nita, an R&D specialist today, at Clabber Girl and I will post on that later, but from what she told me Clabber Girl doesn’t send any samples of any of the ingredients they use for Clabber Girl, or the other products they sell.  Nita said, Clabber Girl gets all their ingredients from mills and then mixes them. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #239 on: May 26, 2011, 08:56:56 PM »
I posted in my last post that I talked to Nita, the R&D manager of Clabber Girl today.  I asked many of the questions that Peter had posted.  It seems like there is a lot of variances in trying to make any kind of formula for a pizza crust mix.  She said  pH of ingredients has to do with formulation, buttermilk will strengthen the protein (and if you want a buttermilk profile in the crust that is something that could be tried), and if the mix is too acidic it would need modifications.  She said it is challenging to develop a product like a pizza crust mix and get it to perform like you want it to.  I also asked Nita, about what type of flour to try in the mix and she said probably cake flour would be a good starting point.  I asked her if cake flour (something like GM might be using in their mixes), in combination with something like KABF might work.  I told her probably the protein content would be around 10.7, or something similar, and she said it could work.  We talked about many other things, but basically, it is all up to how you use the ingredients, in amounts, how your product might turn out.  She also said I could call her anytime with further question I might have.

I found a article about baking powder in this book of bakery technology and engineering.

http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=false

On page 71 there is a chart of three baking powders used in a batter, that shows the reaction rates of these thre types of baking powder, as tested in a simple batter.

Starting on page 64 of the link below, it reads about chemical leavening systems with leavening acids starting on page 67 with a chart on page 70

http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false

This article reads about leavening applications of ICL Food Phosphates.  ICL performance Products LP.

http://www.icl-perfproductslp.com/mm/files/ICL_Bakery.pdf

Another guide for chemical leaveners.

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_12CHEM.PDF

Typical neutralizing values for the most common food leavening agents can be seen in the following table.

http://www.classofoods.com/page4_2.html

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #240 on: May 26, 2011, 09:52:35 PM »
Norma,

Those are good research materials. I saw some of them when I did my research but did not wish to inundate you with them because of their highly technical nature. I wanted you to peel back only the first few layers of the onion, not all of the layers. When I spoke with the person at The Wright Group, he gave me contact information for ICL Performance, Clabber Girl Corporation and Innophos (http://www.innophos.com/). I started with Clabber Girl because you have been using their retail baking powder and thought that their foodservice division might be a useful source of information and possibly samples.

Did you feel comfortable with your discussion with Nita?

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #241 on: May 26, 2011, 10:36:25 PM »
Norma,

Those are good research materials. I saw some of them when I did my research but did not wish to inundate you with them because of their highly technical nature. I wanted you to peel back only the first few layers of the onion, not all of the layers. When I spoke with the person at The Wright Group, he gave me contact information for ICL Performance, Clabber Girl Corporation and Innophos (http://www.innophos.com/). I started with Clabber Girl because you have been using their retail baking powder and thought that their foodservice division might be a useful source of information and possibly samples.

Did you feel comfortable with your discussion with Nita?

Peter

Peter,

I did feel comfortable talking with Nita.  She was very helpful in every question I had to ask her, but really doesn’t have any ideas or suggestions on how to formulate a pizza crust mix.  I guess it is basically try something out, maybe along the lines of Nita’s suggestions of using cake flour and the KABF I have been using, in combination. Since Clabber Girl has been working in the experiments I did do, I can do some other experiments with it.  It was surprised that Clabber Girl didn’t give samples of the separate ingredients, but I guess because they only mix the ingredients to their specifications, that would be the reason. I might also contact Pat Jobe, the food scientist at Clabber Girl in the next week. I can also contact ICL Performance and Innophos in the next week and see what they have to say.  

I like to read though technical information, but might not always understand everything the first time I read it, but some of it is very informative.  I like to see ways different leavening systems can be used and what the results might be.  
                  
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #242 on: May 26, 2011, 10:41:57 PM »
Norma,

When I called Clabber Girl and was referred to Eric in sales, I came away with the distinct impression that Clabber Girl would provide samples of their ingredients. Since he is in sales, he may be more familiar with sales of their blended products rather than standalone ingredients.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #243 on: May 26, 2011, 11:02:03 PM »
Norma,

If you decide to proceed further with your pizza crust premix experiments, I was told that you should have no problem getting samples of the three leavening ingredients from Clabber Girl.

Peter

Peter,

When I talked to Nita, I had remembered what you posted about not having problems with getting samples at Reply 222 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140304.html#msg140304

That is why I wondered why I couldn’t obtain any samples to try.  Maybe I should try to contact sales and see if I can obtain any samples.  I wonder if they provide samples of the separate ingredients or just the Clabber Girl baking powder.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #244 on: May 27, 2011, 04:44:59 PM »
I tried to contact Pat Jobe by phone this morning, but I had to leave a message on his voice mail.  I also tried to write an email, explaining everything I wanted to ask Pat, but the email kept coming back returned mail.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #245 on: May 27, 2011, 09:28:50 PM »
Norma,

I decided to go back and re-read the various documents we found on chemical leavening systems to further solidify my understanding of such systems. I then decided to look at the chemical leavening systems used by General Mills in the Betty Crocker and Bisquick products that you experimented with to see if I could divine the logic used in those leavening systems. Here is the summary of the chemical leavening systems used in those products:

Pouch Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix: sodium aluminum phosphate (aka SALP) and baking soda (this is a single-acting leavening system); there is also yeast in the mix.

Pouch Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Bisquick Cheese-Garlic Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Box Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Banana Nut Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system)
.

What I concluded from the above pattern of use of the chemical leavening systems is that if a mix is to be made into a batter or other mixture quickly and the product is to go into the oven promptly, there is no need to use a fast-acting acid. A slow-acting acid (in a single-acting context) will suffice. The production of carbon dioxide will occur during baking. If there is to be an initial mix and some bench time, or if it will take more than just a few minutes to prepare the final product using the mix, then using a double-acting leavening system seems to make sense.

In your case, with your experiments using the mixes with "goody bags", you inherited the chemical leavening systems used in the various General Mills mixes. Those leavening systems make sense for a dough that is going to ferment for several hours, much as it does for a biscuit mix that typically takes about 15 minutes to turn into biscuits. One of the things that I also learned is if a double-acting leavening system is used, there will be some initial production of carbon dioxide due to the fast-acting acid but it will cease (level off) after only a few minutes and will thereafter resume carbon dioxide production once the product in question is baked. If you were to decide that you want to make a really fast pizza dough within say, five minutes, you would perhaps go with a combination of SALP and baking soda. You wouldn't use the fast-acting acid (see more on this below). Alternatively, if you were to decide that a pizza dough that can be made within say, 15 minutes or more, is what you are after, then I think you would go with the baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate. I believe that you could use a leavening system using sodium aluminum sulfate (aka SAS) instead of SALP, as is the case with the Clabber Girl retail baking powder. I think that the SALP may be a better choice for your purposes because it apparently works more slowly than SAS. The final answer on this would depend on the desired mix, bench and fermentation times.

For your additional information, I believe that the Clapper Girl baking powder you have been using conforms to the Double Acting Formula No. 1 as presented at page 72 of the article at http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false. I can't tell you the actual percents of the three components--only that the pecking order of the Clapper Girl baking powder is the same as the Double Acting Formula No. 1.

I don't think that you have to rush to make decisions on how to proceed in the short term. You might want to await the results of a dough formulation that tries to mimic the combination of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix that produced the Sukie pizza that you liked so much. I feel comfortable about how you might proceed once you get the various samples of chemical leavening ingredients. I think I have the math part under control also, although I have not yet put pencil to paper to come up with numbers. Using the neutralizing values (NVs), which is the math part, is considered to be a starting point. This means that some experimentation is likely to be necessary to come up with a final workable solution.

I should also mention that all of the pizza mixes that were set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 use some combination of SALP and baking soda--but no fast-acting acid like monocalcium phosphate. That seems to be pretty much standard operating procedure for such mixes. All of those mixes also use yeast. The only pizza crust mixes that I am aware of that do not use any chemical leavening system is the Weisenberger pizza crust mix (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903) and the Eagle Mills mix (Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137231.html#msg137231). I have not conducted an exhaustive search for all pizza crust mixes so there may be other examples.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #246 on: May 27, 2011, 10:42:23 PM »
Norma,

As I was putting together my last reply, I came upon a discrepancy in the ingredients list for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 and that which is given for that mix at the General Mills/Betty Crocker website itself. The difference is as to the flour. As you will note from the photo below, the flour for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as given at the GM/Betty Crocker website includes a first flour that is unmalted and, by its omission, presumably unbleached, and a second flour that is bleached and malted. I have to believe that GM is using its own flours in its mixes. This led me to look for an unmalted, unbleached flour at the GM flours website. Such a combination would not be very common inasmuch as most of the GM flours are malted. As you know, we had been operating on the premise that the flour in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was a bleached cake flour, which led us to elect bread flour to raise its protein content to get it into the pizza dough range.

The only GM flour that I could find that is both unmalted and unbleached is the Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour, as described at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc. You might recall that I raised the possibility in Reply 206 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140111.html#msg140111 that the flour used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was "either cake flour or pastry flour, or possibly a blend that has a protein content in the cake/pastry flour range, possibly a GM/Sperry bleached cake/pastry flour with a protein content of around 9%". The Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour has a protein content of 9.5% +/-0.6%. It's hard to say whether that is the flour that is used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix but the Sureflake flour was the only flour that I could find at the GM flour website that is both unmalted and unbleached.

The second flour mentioned above can be almost anything. A bleached and malted flour is extremely common. But, if I had to guess, I would say that the second flour is either an all-purpose flour or a bread flour. But, either way, the predominant flour is the unmalted and unbleached flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 10:55:10 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #247 on: May 27, 2011, 10:56:30 PM »
AAAARRRRRGH! My head! Technical Overload!
 :-D

-Bill

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #248 on: May 27, 2011, 11:05:51 PM »
AAAARRRRRGH! My head! Technical Overload!
 :-D

Bill,

This may sound strange but when you talk to the experts in the field this is the level of the conversations. They go even deeper into the chemistry than what I have given.

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #249 on: May 27, 2011, 11:44:54 PM »
Bill,

This may sound strange but when you talk to the experts in the field this is the level of the conversations. They go even deeper into the chemistry than what I have given.

Peter

I can only imagine!
 ;D
-Bill


 

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