Author Topic: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday  (Read 40750 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #240 on: May 26, 2011, 09:52:35 PM »
Norma,

Those are good research materials. I saw some of them when I did my research but did not wish to inundate you with them because of their highly technical nature. I wanted you to peel back only the first few layers of the onion, not all of the layers. When I spoke with the person at The Wright Group, he gave me contact information for ICL Performance, Clabber Girl Corporation and Innophos (http://www.innophos.com/). I started with Clabber Girl because you have been using their retail baking powder and thought that their foodservice division might be a useful source of information and possibly samples.

Did you feel comfortable with your discussion with Nita?

Peter


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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #241 on: May 26, 2011, 10:36:25 PM »
Norma,

Those are good research materials. I saw some of them when I did my research but did not wish to inundate you with them because of their highly technical nature. I wanted you to peel back only the first few layers of the onion, not all of the layers. When I spoke with the person at The Wright Group, he gave me contact information for ICL Performance, Clabber Girl Corporation and Innophos (http://www.innophos.com/). I started with Clabber Girl because you have been using their retail baking powder and thought that their foodservice division might be a useful source of information and possibly samples.

Did you feel comfortable with your discussion with Nita?

Peter


Peter,

I did feel comfortable talking with Nita.  She was very helpful in every question I had to ask her, but really doesn’t have any ideas or suggestions on how to formulate a pizza crust mix.  I guess it is basically try something out, maybe along the lines of Nita’s suggestions of using cake flour and the KABF I have been using, in combination. Since Clabber Girl has been working in the experiments I did do, I can do some other experiments with it.  It was surprised that Clabber Girl didn’t give samples of the separate ingredients, but I guess because they only mix the ingredients to their specifications, that would be the reason. I might also contact Pat Jobe, the food scientist at Clabber Girl in the next week. I can also contact ICL Performance and Innophos in the next week and see what they have to say.  

I like to read though technical information, but might not always understand everything the first time I read it, but some of it is very informative.  I like to see ways different leavening systems can be used and what the results might be.  
                  
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #242 on: May 26, 2011, 10:41:57 PM »
Norma,

When I called Clabber Girl and was referred to Eric in sales, I came away with the distinct impression that Clabber Girl would provide samples of their ingredients. Since he is in sales, he may be more familiar with sales of their blended products rather than standalone ingredients.

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #243 on: May 26, 2011, 11:02:03 PM »
Norma,

If you decide to proceed further with your pizza crust premix experiments, I was told that you should have no problem getting samples of the three leavening ingredients from Clabber Girl.

Peter


Peter,

When I talked to Nita, I had remembered what you posted about not having problems with getting samples at Reply 222 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140304.html#msg140304

That is why I wondered why I couldn’t obtain any samples to try.  Maybe I should try to contact sales and see if I can obtain any samples.  I wonder if they provide samples of the separate ingredients or just the Clabber Girl baking powder.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #244 on: May 27, 2011, 04:44:59 PM »
I tried to contact Pat Jobe by phone this morning, but I had to leave a message on his voice mail.  I also tried to write an email, explaining everything I wanted to ask Pat, but the email kept coming back returned mail.

Norma
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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #245 on: May 27, 2011, 09:28:50 PM »
Norma,

I decided to go back and re-read the various documents we found on chemical leavening systems to further solidify my understanding of such systems. I then decided to look at the chemical leavening systems used by General Mills in the Betty Crocker and Bisquick products that you experimented with to see if I could divine the logic used in those leavening systems. Here is the summary of the chemical leavening systems used in those products:

Pouch Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix: sodium aluminum phosphate (aka SALP) and baking soda (this is a single-acting leavening system); there is also yeast in the mix.

Pouch Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Bisquick Cheese-Garlic Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Box Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Banana Nut Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system)
.

What I concluded from the above pattern of use of the chemical leavening systems is that if a mix is to be made into a batter or other mixture quickly and the product is to go into the oven promptly, there is no need to use a fast-acting acid. A slow-acting acid (in a single-acting context) will suffice. The production of carbon dioxide will occur during baking. If there is to be an initial mix and some bench time, or if it will take more than just a few minutes to prepare the final product using the mix, then using a double-acting leavening system seems to make sense.

In your case, with your experiments using the mixes with "goody bags", you inherited the chemical leavening systems used in the various General Mills mixes. Those leavening systems make sense for a dough that is going to ferment for several hours, much as it does for a biscuit mix that typically takes about 15 minutes to turn into biscuits. One of the things that I also learned is if a double-acting leavening system is used, there will be some initial production of carbon dioxide due to the fast-acting acid but it will cease (level off) after only a few minutes and will thereafter resume carbon dioxide production once the product in question is baked. If you were to decide that you want to make a really fast pizza dough within say, five minutes, you would perhaps go with a combination of SALP and baking soda. You wouldn't use the fast-acting acid (see more on this below). Alternatively, if you were to decide that a pizza dough that can be made within say, 15 minutes or more, is what you are after, then I think you would go with the baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate. I believe that you could use a leavening system using sodium aluminum sulfate (aka SAS) instead of SALP, as is the case with the Clabber Girl retail baking powder, I think that the SALP may be a better choice for your purposes because it works more slowly than SAS. The final answer on this would depend on the desired mix, bench and fermentation times.

For your additional information, I believe that the Clapper Girl baking powder you have been using conforms to the Double Acting Formula No. 1 as presented at page 72 of the article at http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false. I can't tell you the actual percents of the three components--only that the pecking order of the Clapper Girl baking powder is the same as the Double Acting Formula No. 1.

I don't think that you have to rush to make decisions on how to proceed in the short term. You might want to await the results of a dough formulation that tries to mimic the combination of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix that produced the Sukie pizza that you liked so much. I feel comfortable about how you might proceed once you get the various samples of chemical leavening ingredients. I think I have the math part under control also, although I have not yet put pencil to paper to come up with numbers. Using the neutralizing values (NVs), which is the math part, is considered to be a starting point. This means that some experimentation is likely to be necessary to come up with a final workable solution.

I should also mention that all of the pizza mixes that were set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 use some combination of SALP and baking soda--but no fast-acting acid like monocalcium phosphate. That seems to be pretty much standard operating procedure for such mixes. All of those mixes also use yeast. The only pizza crust mixes that I am aware of that do not use any chemical leavening system is the Weisenberger pizza crust mix (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903) and the Eagle Mills mix (Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137231.html#msg137231). I have not conducted an exhaustive search for all pizza crust mixes so there may be other examples.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 10:53:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #246 on: May 27, 2011, 10:42:23 PM »
Norma,

As I was putting together my last reply, I came upon a discrepancy in the ingredients list for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 and that which is given for that mix at the General Mills/Betty Crocker website itself. The difference is as to the flour. As you will note from the photo below, the flour for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as given at the GM/Betty Crocker website includes a first flour that is unmalted and, by its omission, presumably unbleached, and a second flour that is bleached and malted. I have to believe that GM is using its own flours in its mixes. This led me to look for an unmalted, unbleached flour at the GM flours website. Such a combination would not be very common inasmuch as most of the GM flours are malted. As you know, we had been operating on the premise that the flour in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was a bleached cake flour, which led us to elect bread flour to raise its protein content to get it into the pizza dough range.

The only GM flour that I could find that is both unmalted and unbleached is the Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour, as described at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc. You might recall that I raised the possibility in Reply 206 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140111.html#msg140111 that the flour used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was "either cake flour or pastry flour, or possibly a blend that has a protein content in the cake/pastry flour range, possibly a GM/Sperry bleached cake/pastry flour with a protein content of around 9%". The Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour has a protein content of 9.5% +/-0.6%. It's hard to say whether that is the flour that is used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix but the Sureflake flour was the only flour that I could find at the GM flour website that is both unmalted and unbleached.

The second flour mentioned above can be almost anything. A bleached and malted flour is extremely common. But, if I had to guess, I would say that the second flour is either an all-purpose flour or a bread flour. But, either way, the predominant flour is the unmalted and unbleached flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 10:55:10 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #247 on: May 27, 2011, 10:56:30 PM »
AAAARRRRRGH! My head! Technical Overload!
 :-D

-Bill

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #248 on: May 27, 2011, 11:05:51 PM »
AAAARRRRRGH! My head! Technical Overload!
 :-D

Bill,

This may sound strange but when you talk to the experts in the field this is the level of the conversations. They go even deeper into the chemistry than what I have given.

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #249 on: May 27, 2011, 11:44:54 PM »
Bill,

This may sound strange but when you talk to the experts in the field this is the level of the conversations. They go even deeper into the chemistry than what I have given.

Peter

I can only imagine!
 ;D
-Bill


Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #250 on: May 28, 2011, 12:10:05 AM »
Norma,

As I was putting together my last reply, I came upon a discrepancy in the ingredients list for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 and that which is given for that mix at the General Mills/Betty Crocker website itself. The difference is as to the flour. As you will note from the photo below, the flour for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as given at the GM/Betty Crocker website includes a first flour that is unmalted and, by its omission, presumably unbleached, and a second flour that is bleached and malted. I have to believe that GM is using its own flours in its mixes. This led me to look for an unmalted, unbleached flour at the GM flours website. Such a combination would not be very common inasmuch as most of the GM flours are malted. As you know, we had been operating on the premise that the flour in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was a bleached cake flour, which led us to elect bread flour to raise its protein content to get it into the pizza dough range.

The only GM flour that I could find that is both unmalted and unbleached is the Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour, as described at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc. You might recall that I raised the possibility in Reply 206 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140111.html#msg140111 that the flour used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was "either cake flour or pastry flour, or possibly a blend that has a protein content in the cake/pastry flour range, possibly a GM/Sperry bleached cake/pastry flour with a protein content of around 9%". The Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour has a protein content of 9.5% +/-0.6%. It's hard to say whether that is the flour that is used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix but the Sureflake flour was the only flour that I could find at the GM flour website that is both unmalted and unbleached.

The second flour mentioned above can be almost anything. A bleached and malted flour is extremely common. But, if I had to guess, I would say that the second flour is either an all-purpose flour or a bread flour. But, either way, the predominant flour is the unmalted and unbleached flour.

Peter
Norma,

I decided to go back and re-read the various documents we found on chemical leavening systems to further solidify my understanding of such systems. I then decided to look at the chemical leavening systems used by General Mills in the Betty Crocker and Bisquick products that you experimented with to see if I could divine the logic used in those leavening systems. Here is the summary of the chemical leavening systems used in those products:

Pouch Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix: sodium aluminum phosphate (aka SALP) and baking soda (this is a single-acting leavening system); there is also yeast in the mix.

Pouch Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Bisquick Cheese-Garlic Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Box Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Banana Nut Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system)
.

What I concluded from the above pattern of use of the chemical leavening systems is that if a mix is to be made into a batter or other mixture quickly and the product is to go into the oven promptly, there is no need to use a fast-acting acid. A slow-acting acid (in a single-acting context) will suffice. The production of carbon dioxide will occur during baking. If there is to be an initial mix and some bench time, or if it will take more than just a few minutes to prepare the final product using the mix, then using a double-acting leavening system seems to make sense.

In your case, with your experiments using the mixes with "goody bags", you inherited the chemical leavening systems used in the various General Mills mixes. Those leavening systems make sense for a dough that is going to ferment for several hours, much as it does for a biscuit mix that typically takes about 15 minutes to turn into biscuits. One of the things that I also learned is if a double-acting leavening system is used, there will be some initial production of carbon dioxide due to the fast-acting acid but it will cease (level off) after only a few minutes and will thereafter resume carbon dioxide production once the product in question is baked. If you were to decide that you want to make a really fast pizza dough within say, five minutes, you would perhaps go with a combination of SALP and baking soda. You wouldn't use the fast-acting acid (see more on this below). Alternatively, if you were to decide that a pizza dough that can be made within say, 15 minutes or more, is what you are after, then I think you would go with the baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate. I believe that you could use a leavening system using sodium aluminum sulfate (aka SAS) instead of SALP, as is the case with the Clabber Girl retail baking powder, I think that the SALP may be a better choice for your purposes because it works more slowly than SAS. The final answer on this would depend on the desired mix, bench and fermentation times.

For your additional information, I believe that the Clapper Girl baking powder you have been using conforms to the Double Acting Formula No. 1 as presented at page 72 of the article at http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false. I can't tell you the actual percents of the three components--only that the pecking order of the Clapper Girl baking powder is the same as the Double Acting Formula No. 1.

I don't think that you have to rush to make decisions on how to proceed in the short term. You might want to await the results of a dough formulation that tries to mimic the combination of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix that produced the Sukie pizza that you liked so much. I feel comfortable about how you might proceed once you get the various samples of chemical leavening ingredients. I think I have the math part under control also, although I have not yet put pencil to paper to come up with numbers. Using the neutralizing values (NVs), which is the math part, is considered to be a starting point. This means that some experimentation is likely to be necessary to come up with a final workable solution.

I should also mention that all of the pizza mixes that were set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 use some combination of SALP and baking soda--but no fast-acting acid like monocalcium phosphate. That seems to be pretty much standard operating procedure for such mixes. All of those mixes also use yeast. The only pizza crust mixes that I am aware of that do not use any chemical leavening system is the Weisenberger pizza crust mix (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903) and the Eagle Mills mix (Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137231.html#msg137231). I have not conducted an exhaustive search for all pizza crust mixes so there may be other examples.

Peter


Peter,

I am just beginning to understand these different chemical leavening systems, that are in the different Betty Crocker products. I saved all my pouches of the biscuits and muffin mixes, and still have a box of the Original Bisquick here at home, but never thought to look if they used different chemical leavening systems.  I wondered how the biscuit and muffins mixes all worked, used with your “goody bag”, when made into pizzas.  I guess your goody bag with the Clabber Girl in it, is what made it work, since the Clabber Girl has a double acting formula.  Do you also think that is why they all worked okay?

When I was reading about different combinations of chemical leavening systems I never thought to look on my pouches.  I just looked at the pouches and the Original Bisquick and now see there are different chemical leavening systems used in the different products.  I also see how the pouches for the muffins it says ready in 3 minutes and the pouches for the biscuits, say ready in 15 minutes.  I can now understand what you concluded from the pattern of use of the chemical leavening systems, that if a mix is to be made into a batter or other mixture quickly and then goes into the oven promptly, the single-acting powder will suffice.

I wouldn’t know until I did some experiments, for a pizza crust mix, whether I would want a fast acting chemical leavening system, but would think, your idea of using SALP might be a better choice for my purposes because it works more slowly that SAS.

It is interesting you think the Clabber Girl baking powder I am using conforms to the Double Acting Formula No.. 1 as presented  at page 72 of the article on Bakery technology and engineering.  When I read that before I had wondered if any of those two Double acting formulas were anything like Clabber Girl double acting baking powder or what I was looking for.  I can understand you wouldn’t know if the percents were right, but at least that might be a start to try.

I don’t think there is any need to rush either in how to proceed right now, but find it interesting that you feel comfortable about how I might proceed, once I get the various samples of the chemical leavening ingredients.  I didn’t know the neutralizing values (Nvs), would be the math part, which would be considered the starting point.  I can understand experimentation would be necessary to come up with a final workable solution.  

I wonder why the pizza mixes you set-forth in Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 don’t have any fast acting acid like monocalcium phosphate.

I would also agree that Betty Crocker would be using GM flours.  I know we have operated on the premise that the flour in the Biquick Original Pancake and Baking mix was cake flour and then that led to adding the KABF to raise the protein content, in the pizza experiments I did try.  It is also interesting you found the Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour and was able to decide that might be the flour that is in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  

Thanks for all your investigating!  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 12:34:39 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #251 on: May 28, 2011, 12:19:36 AM »
AAAARRRRRGH! My head! Technical Overload!
 :-D



Bill,

You made me chuckle again.   :-D  To understand these different chemical leavening systems is much different than understanding regular types of yeasts or even starters, when used in pizzas.  It is interesting to learn about how different chemical leavening systems work, but when I first started this thread, I never thought it would lead to all of the technical overload.   :-D  At least though this thread, even if I am not successful in creating a pizza crust mix, I will understand more about chemical leaving systems used in products.  I never will be a chemist, because I don't even understand how to do the hard math part, but am learning more.

Norma
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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #252 on: May 28, 2011, 08:39:18 AM »
Peter,

I don’t know if you found any of these articles in your research on chemical leavening or not.

Chemical Leavens, starting on page 15 http://books.google.com/books?id=TXYIrkrtDw0C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=Bakery+products:+science+and+technology+By+Yiu+H.+Hui,+Harold+Corke+chemical+leavening+systems&source=bl&ots=j_8luQeMYF&sig=kUZtHgAr0NYZwGTq_RWs_vWyfoI&hl=en&ei=apDgTdLoDcbEgQfApJGuBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.whereincity.com/articles/science/6270.html
                                
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30115754/Bakery-Processes-Chemical-Leavening-Agents

http://www.icl-perfproductslp.com/page.aspx?id=72

http://www.physics.umanitoba.ca/~jhpage/PDF_Files/GuillermoJCS.pdf

A patent for Chemical Leavener System comprising acidulant precursors by Victor T. Huang

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/52927766/Chemical-Leavener-System-Comprising-Acidulant-Precursors---Patent-6824807

Victor T.Haung also is listed under this book  General Mills, Inc. Minneapolis, Minnesota, U.S.A., after his name, on the end page.

http://www.crcnetbase.com/doi/pdfplusdirect/10.1201/9780203911785.fmatt

I wonder if the Victor T. Haung as the one listed in the book, Characterization of Cereals and Flours is the same person from the patent above.  

Norma
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 08:44:44 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #253 on: May 28, 2011, 10:24:57 AM »
Norma,

I am just beginning to understand these different chemical leavening systems, that are in the different Betty Crocker products. I saved all my pouches of the biscuits and muffin mixes, and still have a box of the Original Bisquick here at home, but never thought to look if they used different chemical leavening systems.  I wondered how the biscuit and muffins mixes all worked, used with your “goody bag”, when made into pizzas.  I guess your goody bag with the Clabber Girl in it, is what made it work, since the Clabber Girl has a double acting formula.  Do you also think that is why they all worked okay?


A lot of thought went into the "goody bag" (as discussed in Reply 63 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736), which first required that I try to reverse engineer the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix (which took up most of my time), but to a certain extent luck came into play as well. The first thing that I had to do was to add more flour to the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix to raise the total protein content to something that was more conducive to a pizza dough. Once I did that, I had to adjust the amounts of most of the other ingredients, including the Clabber Girl's baking powder quantity, to bring their baker's percents back into balance. Otherwise, their baker's percents would have gone down since those values are measured with respect to the total flour weight. (It's like making a dough with a high hydration and then using a lot of bench flour. Unless the amounts of the other ingredients are also increased, their baker's percents will go down because of the added bench flour. This is something that people rarely think about.) Also, I added regular yeast in order to get the benefits of yeast fermentation.

Fortuitously, when I was done, the total weight, including the total amount of water that I thought might be needed, was enough to make a single 16" pizza or two roughly 12" pizzas, with a thickness factor of around 0.105, which is a value that is in a range that you like to use and is also high enough to make a decent pizza in a standard home oven (that is, not too thin and not too thick). I did not know that the "goody bag" would become a generic or one-size-fits-all type of addition. I am glad that that happened since it does simplify matters considerably. Some time, you might calculate the added cost from using the "goody bag", to see what the overall cost is with the cost of the pouch of the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix included. I suspect that the total cost is reasonable, especially given the good results that you achieved.

Quote
I wonder why the pizza mixes you set-forth in Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 don’t have any fast acting acid like monocalcium phosphate.


I did not have the instructions for most of the pizza crust mixes set forth in Reply 23 but it appeared to me that all of such mixes were intended to be used to make dough very quickly and to get the pizzas into the oven as fast as possible. After all, that is what most home consumers seem to want and expect out of an "instant" pizza crust mix. That protocol also seemed to fit the pattern for doughs that, in general, do not need a fast-acting acid to get going. All of the activity from the chemical leavening system takes place in the oven (there will be some activity during the mixing stage, as is usually the case even with a fast-acting acid, but the bulk of it occurs during baking).

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #254 on: May 28, 2011, 11:10:02 AM »
I don’t know if you found any of these articles in your research on chemical leavening or not.

Norma,

No, I did not find those articles. Had I found them and actually read them, someone would have come and taken me away to a nice, quiet place where I would not hurt myself. Then, even Bill (chickenparm) wouldn't be able to visit me because my keepers would suspect that you used Bill to smuggle in more articles on chemical leavening systems that you found for me to read.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 11:16:32 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #255 on: May 28, 2011, 12:22:50 PM »
Norma,

A lot of thought went into the "goody bag" (as discussed in Reply 63 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736), which first required that I try to reverse engineer the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix (which took up most of my time), but to a certain extent luck came into play as well. The first thing that I had to do was to add more flour to the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix to raise the total protein content to something that was more conducive to a pizza dough. Once I did that, I had to adjust the amounts of most of the other ingredients, including the Clabber Girl's baking powder quantity, to bring their baker's percents back into balance. Otherwise, their baker's percents would have gone down since those values are measured with respect to the total flour weight. (It's like making a dough with a high hydration and then using a lot of bench flour. Unless the amounts of the other ingredients are also increased, their baker's percents will go down because of the added bench flour. This is something that people rarely think about.) Also, I added regular yeast in order to get the benefits of yeast fermentation.

Fortuitously, when I was done, the total weight, including the total amount of water that I thought might be needed, was enough to make a single 16" pizza or two roughly 12" pizzas, with a thickness factor of around 0.105, which is a value that is in a range that you like to use and is also high enough to make a decent pizza in a standard home oven (that is, not too thin and not too thick). I did not know that the "goody bag" would become a generic or one-size-fits-all type of addition. I am glad that that happened since it does simplify matters considerably. Some time, you might calculate the added cost from using the "goody bag", to see what the overall cost is with the cost of the pouch of the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix included. I suspect that the total cost is reasonable, especially given the good results that you achieved.

Peter



Peter,

I know you put a lot thought, calculations and time, about what went into the “goody bag”.  I saw in your calculations that you then needed to adust the amounts of most of the other ingredients, including the Clabber Girl’s baking powder quantity, so they would all be in balance.  I can understand everything has to be measured and be in balance with the total flour weight, for the mixes and “goody bag” to be able to turn into a pizza.  I know you also added regular yeast to get the benefits of yeast fermentation.  

I think we were fortunate that the “goody bag” did work with the muffins mixes and the biscuit mixes.  I can understand you were glad that did happen.  I will try and calculate what the costs of the “goody bag” and different mixes might be.  I don’t think it will come out too expensive.  

I was just out shopping for gardening things and at my local Country Store.  I bought a bag of Purasnow Cake Flour.  I might try using that with KABF to make another experimental pizza this weekend.  I also have a bag of pie and pastry flour here at home (but I don’t know the brand).  Which flour would you choose, if I do decide to do the experiment?

Steve (Ev) told me has dextrose for beer brewing and will bring some this coming Tuesday if I want to try some.  I wonder if that dextrose is the same kind I am looking for.



No, I did not find those articles. Had I found them and actually read them, someone would have come and taken me away to a nice, quiet place where I would not hurt myself. Then, even Bill (chickenparm) wouldn't be able to visit me because my keepers would suspect that you used Bill to smuggle in more articles on chemical leavening systems that you found for me to read.

Peter


Lol, you also made me chuckle just like Bill did.  :-D I don’t understand all that is written in those articles, but it sounds by the patent Victor T. Haung applied for, he does know a lot about chemical leavening systems and how they work. I wonder if that patent was ever used at GM.  I don’t want you to be taken away to a quiet place, where you won’t hurt yourself.  I just thought the articles were interesting in explaining about chemical leavening systems.  I wonder if Bill looks at those articles what he would think.  ???

Norma



« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 12:25:34 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #256 on: May 28, 2011, 02:06:25 PM »
Norma,

As between the Pureasnow cake flour and the pie and pastry flour, I think I would go with the Pureasnow just now, together with the KABF. However, out of curiosity, I checked the General Mills flour website to see if they offer a pie and pastry flour. As it turns out, there are two flours that are supposedly good for pie crusts--the Sureflake cake and pastry flour mentioned earlier (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc) and also a pastry flour called Cameo (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Cameo50802(West).doc) that is unmalted and unbleached and appears to be quite similar to the Sureflake cake and pastry flour. I haven't checked the specs yet in detail to see what the differences are other than to note that they have the same protein content (9% +/-0.6%) and that the Cameo flour has a considerably lower ash content than the Sureflake flour.

As with many commercial ingredients, dextrose comes in various forms. But, for now and for your purposes, I don't see any harm in using what Steve uses. I'd be be interested to see if it produces more fermentation and crust coloration when you do get around to trying it.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 02:59:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #257 on: May 28, 2011, 05:00:08 PM »
Norma,

As between the Pureasnow cake flour and the pie and pastry flour, I think I would go with the Pureasnow just now, together with the KABF. However, out of curiosity, I checked the General Mills flour website to see if they offer a pie and pastry flour. As it turns out, there are two flours that are supposedly good for pie crusts--the Sureflake cake and pastry flour mentioned earlier (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc) and also a pastry flour called Cameo (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Cameo50802(West).doc) that is unmalted and unbleached and appears to be quite similar to the Sureflake cake and pastry flour. I haven't checked the specs yet in detail to see what the differences are other than to note that they have the same protein content (9% +/-0.6%) and that the Cameo flour has a considerably lower ash content than the Sureflake flour.

As with many commercial ingredients, dextrose comes in various forms. But, for now and for your purposes, I don't see any harm in using what Steve uses. I'd be be interested to see if it produces more fermentation and crust coloration when you do get around to trying it.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me which flour to use, if I have time to do an experiment.  I wonder if the Country Store pie and pastry flour is one of those you mentioned.  The Country Store does seem to carry GM products.  There are only until 1:00 pm Saturday’s and now won’t be opened until Tuesday, but I will have to check on what brand and kind of pie and pastry flour they carry.  As I posted in before, the flours Country Stores carry, aren’t always labeled to their brands. I think the Country Store does get all their flours from Dutch Valley. 
 
If I have time Tuesday, I will do another experiment, this time with the dextrose.

Norma
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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #258 on: May 29, 2011, 09:27:24 PM »
Another mystery pizza was made, but this time at home.  I used KABF, Pursasnow cake flour, soy flour, IDY and a chemical leaving system (Clabber Girl baking powder), along with other ingredients.  I wanted to see how this pie would bake in my home oven.  

This pizza took from start to finish about 2 ˝ hrs.  I wanted to let the dough ball ferment longer, but it was getting late.  I used the top of my stove with a hot pad on top of one burner to speed the fermentation along.  This pizza was baked on the bottom rack of my oven at about 500 degrees F on the pizza stone for 7 minutes.

When the pie was baking it develop a bubble in two places.  I thought since this might be another Sukie pizza, I needed something special to pop the bubbles.  On the pictures below is what I popped the bubbles with.  I don’t know if anyone knows what they are or not.  

This formula might need a few more tweaks, but the crust, crumb, bake time, and formula did work decent to make another Sukie pizza.  I find it interesting how IDY and a chemical leavening system can be used hand in hand to make a pizza.  :)

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #259 on: May 29, 2011, 09:30:37 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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