Author Topic: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday  (Read 38582 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #260 on: May 29, 2011, 09:33:19 PM »
more pictures..I even picked some fresh basil from my garden to place on this Sukie pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #261 on: May 29, 2011, 09:35:14 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #262 on: May 30, 2011, 09:36:06 PM »
I needed something special to pop the bubbles.  On the pictures below is what I popped the bubbles with.  I donít know if anyone knows what they are or not.  

Norma,

Are your "bubble poppers" antique or vintage crochet hooks?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #263 on: May 30, 2011, 10:57:00 PM »
Norma,

Are your "bubble poppers" antique or vintage crochet hooks?

Peter


Peter,

The "bubble poppers" I used for the pizza were Victorian button hooks, made of sterling silver.  http://www.purelysilver.info/buttonhooks.html  I did crochet in my former life and made many afghans, but pizza making is more fun and doesnít take as long as using a crochet hook to make afghans.   :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #264 on: May 31, 2011, 11:07:51 PM »
I tried the same mystery pizza I made at home today at market.  Steve brought me some corn sugar (dextrose) to try in the mix.  This time I used less water (131 grams) and the dough felt about the same as other mystery pizzas I made with the Betty Crocker mixes with the ďgoody bagĒ added.  The last time I try this dough at home I had added more water and then had to add more KABF to make the dough feel like the doughs I had tried with the Betty Crocker mixes with the added ďgoody bagĒ.

Steve and I left the dough rise two times in a time frame of about 3 hours.

I donít know why, but this pizza wanted to really brown on the bottom crust much faster.  I had to add 3 screens so the crust wouldnít burn.  Maybe it was the corn sugar that wanted to make the crust brown too fast. 

The crumb and texture werenít as good as the attempt I made at home.  I also took a picture of the thermometer of how hot it was at market today.

I also sent Tom Lehmann a PM about me trying to make a pizza crust mix and asked him if there are any articles at AIB that I could read online to understand more about how to approach making a pizza crust mix.  This is what Tom Lehmann replied today.

Norma;

Check the PMQ archives for any of my articles on take and bake pizza as well as Think Tank postings. The key to getting the desired performance as well as a decent shelf life for the mix/goodie bag lies in the use of a coated leavening system. Without the encapsulation the leavening system will slowly react over a fairly short time due to the moisture in the mix (think flour). Flour isn't dry, it actually contains between 10 and 13% moisture. There are some mixes out these that do not use an encapsulated leavening system, but these use a special, dried (low moisture) flour. As for leavening systems, you choices are: SALP (sodium aluminum sulfate); CAPP (calcium acid pyrophosphate); SAPP (sodium acid pyro phosphate) and GDL (glucano delta lactone) along with soda to fully neutralize the acid component. The timing of gas production can be adjusted to some extent by combining one or more of these with another leavening acid such as MCP (monocalcium phosphate), or other forms of the above mentioned acids.
To this, you can also add in the particle size of the soda. Soda with a larger particle size is slower to go into solution, and as such, it tends to slow down the rate of gas production in the leavening system.
If you will send me your mailing address I'll send you a free copy of one of our AIB Technical Bulletins on chemical leavening systems in baking.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #265 on: May 31, 2011, 11:11:30 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #266 on: May 31, 2011, 11:15:08 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #267 on: June 01, 2011, 07:41:55 AM »
I am linking this post on Saturday Coffeeís thread on the Weisenberger Pizza Crust mix, because Saturday Coffee did send me two Weisenbergerís Pizza Crust mixes to experiment with.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg141219.html#msg141219

The final pizza from the Weisenberger Pizza Crust mix did turn out better than pizza businesses near me. 

Thanks again Saturday Coffee for sending me the two Weisenbergerís Pizza Crust mixes to experiment with.  This was another mystery pizza Steve and I tried at market.  Steve agreed that this pizza was very good.  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #268 on: June 01, 2011, 01:55:19 PM »
Norma,

Apart from the ovens, was the only difference between the two pizza doughs is that you used dextrose (corn sugar) at market and sugar at home? I might also add that dextrose is not quite as sweet as ordinary table sugar (sucrose). So, if you were to replace sugar with dextrose, you would need more dextrose by weight to equal the sweetness of sucrose. That is only with respect to sweetness. The fact that dextrose is a simple sugar, it is immediately available as food for the yeast and to participate in the Maillard reactions to add more crust color. In reverse engineering food products that include dextrose, it is hard to accurately nail down the percent of dextrose used because it is very difficult to find good data (Nutrition Facts and the like) on ingredients like dextrose that are commercial/industrial ingredients.

What Tom Lehmann told you seems to be correct by and large based on what I have taken away from the many articles you cited. However, one of the things I did discuss with the fellow at Clabber Girl is the effect of the moisture content of flour and whether it was necessary to use a flour that was dried to reduce the moisture content so as not to interact with the chemical leavening system. As I reported earlier in this thread, I was also told that the moisture in the flour(s) used in the GM mixes would be diluted by all of the other ingredients and shouldn't prematurely start the chemical activity between the baking soda and the acids. You might ask Tom for the AIB piece to see what it says about chemical leavening systems.

Peter
 

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #269 on: June 01, 2011, 02:48:17 PM »
Norma,

Apart from the ovens, was the only difference between the two pizza doughs is that you used dextrose (corn sugar) at market and sugar at home? I might also add that dextrose is not quite as sweet as ordinary table sugar (sucrose). So, if you were to replace sugar with dextrose, you would need more dextrose by weight to equal the sweetness of sucrose. That is only with respect to sweetness. The fact that dextrose is a simple sugar, it is immediately available as food for the yeast and to participate in the Maillard reactions to add more crust color. In reverse engineering food products that include dextrose, it is hard to accurately nail down the percent of dextrose used because it is very difficult to find good data (Nutrition Facts and the like) on ingredients like dextrose that are commercial/industrial ingredients.

What Tom Lehmann told you seems to be correct by and large based on what I have taken away from the many articles you cited. However, one of the things I did discuss with the fellow at Clabber Girl is the effect of the moisture content of flour and whether it was necessary to use a flour that was dried to reduce the moisture content so as not to interact with the chemical leavening system. As I reported earlier in this thread, I was also told that the moisture in the flour(s) used in the GM mixes would be diluted by all of the other ingredients and shouldn't prematurely start the chemical activity between the baking soda and the acids. You might ask Tom for the AIB piece to see what it says about chemical leavening systems.

Peter
 

Peter,

The differences I made were, I replaced the dextrose (in the same grams) with the sugar.  I tasted the corn sugar and to me, if really tasted sweeter than sugar (or more powerful).  I only put a small amount (a dab) on my tongue.  I did add less water to the dough mix yesterday.  131 grams versus 159.3 grams used at the attempt at home.  I also had added 14 more grams of KABF to the mix I did at home, because the dough seemed to sticky.  So right there are some more variables.  At least to me, I would think there needs to be more KABF in the mix and less Cake Flour to get a decent pizza dough.  I donít know if that is true or not.  The test dough made at home felt more like a pizza dough.

I did get the pdf. document from Tom Lehmann this morning and printed it out. It is eight pages long and I have been trying to study it.  To me it is very complicated, in understanding all that is written.  If there is anything you might want to know about the pdf. document from Tom, let me know. 

I also received my samples from Abitec Corp. this morning. (Sterotrex HM and K)   They also came with 16 pages of documentation. 

I donít know if I ever will be understand all what must go into making a pizza crust mix.  It is really complicated to me.

Picture of Abitec products I received today.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #270 on: June 01, 2011, 03:14:58 PM »
Norma,

I found the page where the data on the Abitec Sterotex HM and K hydrogenated (partially?) vegetable oils is provided, at http://www.abiteccorp.com/i_templates/administration/tinymce/uploaded/File/Sterotex%20Tech%20Data/Sterotex%20HM_NF%20TDS%20I-18.pdf. In your intial inquiry at Abitec, were you able to determine whether the HM and K products are used in commercial mixes such as sold by General Mills?

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #271 on: June 01, 2011, 04:18:48 PM »
Norma,

I found the page where the data on the Abitec Sterotex HM and K hydrogenated (partially?) vegetable oils is provided, at http://www.abiteccorp.com/i_templates/administration/tinymce/uploaded/File/Sterotex%20Tech%20Data/Sterotex%20HM_NF%20TDS%20I-18.pdf. In your intial inquiry at Abitec, were you able to determine whether the HM and K products are used in commercial mixes such as sold by General Mills?

Peter


Peter,

I wasnít able to determine from my conversations with the person I spoke with at Abitec if the HM and K products are anything like GM uses in their products.  I could email the person I spoke with and ask them that question.  In the documents I have for the Abitec products it says Product use: Various Food, Cosmetic, and Industrial Uses.

I will see if I can find some links to the AIB technical Bulletin for chemical leaveners Tom sent me for you to look at.  There are references and other sources at the end of the pdf document.

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #272 on: June 01, 2011, 08:16:47 PM »
Another mystery pizza was made at market yesterday by Steve and me.  I had bought a Auntie Anneís At-Home Baking Kit awhile ago, but didnít try it out until yesterday.  I did take the dough mix out of the bag and weighed it to see how much it weighed, because I wanted to see if I tried a NY style pizza out of the At-Home Baking kit, how much the total weight would be when the water was added. I also wanted to see since ADY was in this mix, if that would make a different dough or not. The Auntie Anneís At-Home Baking Kit is for soft pretzels, Deep Dish pizza, pretzel dogs, and monkey bread.  In the directions it said to dissolve contents of the yeast packet (10.5 grams) in 1 Ĺ cups lukewarm tap water. (105 degrees F) Let sit about 2 minutes.  Water temperature must not exceed 115 degrees F.  Steve and I measured the water temperature when adding the ADY to water, so it wouldnít be too hot.  We followed the other directions inside the box and when the dough was mixed it seemed way too dry (it had said in the directions that after kneading, the dough would be soft and slightly tacky and that wasnít the case for us).  We then added more water, until we thought the dough was moist enough or about 63 % hydration.  The dough mixing directions said to place the bowl of dough in a warm spot (85-95 degrees F) for 30 minutes so the dough can rise.  Of course market temperatures were that high yesterday, so there was no need to find a warm spot for the dough to rise.  We waited about 1 Ĺ hrs. to use the dough.  We divided the dough to use enough dough for a 16 ď pizza.  The dough ball was easy to open.  I did take a picture of the pizza baking in the oven, but it came out blurry.  After first baking the pizza for not long, it wanted to brown on the bottom too fast, so 3 screens were added under the pie.  

After eat tasting a slice of pizza, Steve, other stand holders and I decided the crust was way too sweet.  I donít know if it was the dextrose or molasses, or another ingredient in the mix, that made the dough way too sweet.  The rest of the divided dough I bought home last evening and froze, to try another time for soft pretzels.  

I wanted to try this Auntie Anneís At-Home Baking Kit because I wanted to see if it would taste like real Auntie Anneís soft pretzels.  So far it didnít.  I donít know how a home person making this dough would fair out, because even though Steve and I do know some about making dough, I donít think the instructions work.  I also planned on trying the Aunti Anneís At-Home Baking Kit yesterday because it said in the ingredients it contained less than 2% of dextrose and also included sodium aluminum sulfate in the ingredients.  Sodium aluminum sulfate wasnít in the other GM mixes I tried before.  I was trying less than 2 % of dextrose or sugar in my home pizza crust mix.

I had tried making my own pretzel dough in another thread, and from the experiment Steve and I did yesterday, I like my own results better.  The Auntie Anneís At-Home Baking Kit was also too expensive bought at the Country Store at 5.99 for the baking kit. I wonder how many people buy that baking kit and are disappointed in the results. Although the bottom crust looked almost burnt, it didn't have any burnt taste when eating it.

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 08:27:07 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #273 on: June 01, 2011, 08:21:09 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #274 on: June 01, 2011, 08:22:52 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #275 on: June 01, 2011, 10:30:10 PM »
I did email Laura at the Abitec Corporation today to ask if she knew if the sterotex products are used in GM mixes.  This was Lauraís reply to me tonight.

I do not know specifically if the sterotex products are used in GM mixes, but these types of powdered, controlled melt products are commonly used in baking mixes.  Hope that helps.

Laura

In Lauraís last email before today, in her reply she had said:

For example,   Sterotex HM melts b/w 153-156F, while Sterotex K melts b/w 178-183F.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #276 on: June 02, 2011, 10:15:12 AM »
Peter,

I was searching online for different references and other sources contained within the pdf. document Tom sent me.                                              
                                              
These are just a few articles books, or documents I found.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057547

This can tell how much sweeter to add or other ideas 4 to 7 parts of sugar or substitute for the dough weight composition.  sweetening agent levels exceeding 10 parts per 100 parts flour, i.e., a sugar to flour ratio exceeding about 0.1 is to be avoided.

http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/4481222.html

Food phosphates questions and answers:

http://www.thermphos.com/Home/Brochures/~/media/Pdf/brochure/Brochure08%20pdf.ashx

Versatility of Bicarbonate Leavening bases.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OTy8aIWxHhQC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=versatility+of+bicarbonate+leavening+bases+lajoie+pages+420-424&source=bl&ots=QA5dH7Z_cX&sig=uHFT4Ezh9ZyGg11wWJCxvi5UfSM&hl=en&ei=uhHnTem_AYPDgQfRyP2MCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Treatise on Cake baking: There is a book referenced, but I am having a hard time finding links to the where it is reference in the book about chemical leavening systems.
                                                                                                                                                   
 chemical suppliers     
http://www.food-ingredients.com/resultpage.php?q=acidulants,+ph+control

I saw so many articles and pfd. documents and could go on forever searching.  Most of these articles and documents are way over my head.  Instead of driving us both crazy, if you want to know any specifics of what is contained in the 8 page technical bulletin Tom sent me, let me know what you want or would like to know.  I then can type out what you do not know.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 10:21:01 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #277 on: June 09, 2011, 02:01:51 PM »
I called Weisenberger Mills today and talked to a nice southern gentleman.  I started the conversation by saying that someone had sent me two of their pizza crust mixes to try.  I told the southern gentleman, that I thought their pizza crust mix, in the 6.5 oz. packet turned out great.  I also told him I had tried other pizza crust mixes and non had compared with the Weisenberger pizza crust mix.  I then asked him about the kind of shortening that is used in their pizza crust mix, because I wondered how a shortening could be added to a dry mix.  He said they use a spray-dried shortening for their pizza crust mixes.  I said I didnít know about what a spray-dried shortening was.  He then said it is an industrial shortening that is spray dried and many biscuit or other mixes also use the same product.  I asked him if  anyone someone like myself could buy spray dried shortening and he said no, it is only for industrial purposes.  I didnít want to blow my cover, so I didnít ask anything more about the spray-dried shortening.  I then asked him what kind of flour is used in the pizza crust mix and he said strong red spring wheat, but didnít tell me it included the soft winter wheat, like Peter had posted at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139922.html#msg139922  It now makes me wonder which kind of spring wheat might be used in the pizza crust mix, because they do sell different flours from spring wheat and also other flours. http://www.weisenberger.com/category.cfm?Category=20&CFID=10742034&CFTOKEN=95599290 I then told the gentleman, that I own a small pizza stand at a farmerís market in Pa. and that is where I tried the pizza crust mix.  I also told him I let the dough ferment for longer than the instructions stated and found the crust turned out very good.  He said, most people donít want to wait as long as I did to make a pizza.  They want instant everything.  I told him I did try other pizza crust mixes and didnít like them as well as the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix.  I then went on to ask about if they use real sugar in their pizza crust mix or do they used dextrose (I already knew they must be using real sugar), like some of the mixes I had tried.  He said they do use real sugar in the pizza crust mix.  I told the gentleman that I had heard of the L-cysteine because I do make many kinds of pizzas and had tried some dough conditioners.  I also asked him if non fat dried milk is really used in the mix as stated, and he said yes.  I didnít go into more detail about anything else, because I thought I had already asked enough of questions.  I told the gentleman I might be interested in buying some of the Weisenberger Pizza Crust mixes to sell at my farmersí market stand and how would I go about that.  He said the cases come in 12 packets and if I ordered 5 or 6 cases, it would be cheaper, but I would still have to pay shipping charges.  He told me if I had any more questions to call again.  Weisenbergerís pizza crust mixes sure sound easier than the Betty Crocker or the Auntie Anneís at Home Baking Kit I did try, and the pizza was a lot better.  I wonder if I should purchase one of Weisenbergerís spring flours or other flours and get some L-cysteine to try.  At least there are no chemical leaving systems to try and understand.

Norma
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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #278 on: June 09, 2011, 11:51:05 PM »
I asked him if  anyone someone like myself could buy spray dried shortening and he said no, it is only for industrial purposes. 


Actually, I think you can get it. Dehydrated/dry shortening powder is sold as an emergency preparedness supply such as here: http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=FS%20D145 or
http://www.homelandpreparedness.com/cgi-bin/shop/fr_searchz.cgi?user_id=id&database=prov/dbase2.exm&template=prov/tmplt_cans_sr2.htm&0_option=1&0=DH41

If you are serious about getting into manufacturing, you might try The Food Source - http://www.foodsourceinc.com/dairy.asp?subcat=13   I think they are located near you too and they have a pretty user friendly sample program.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #279 on: June 10, 2011, 12:09:45 AM »
Actually, I think you can get it. Dehydrated/dry shortening powder is sold as an emergency preparedness supply such as here: http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=FS%20D145 or
http://www.homelandpreparedness.com/cgi-bin/shop/fr_searchz.cgi?user_id=id&database=prov/dbase2.exm&template=prov/tmplt_cans_sr2.htm&0_option=1&0=DH41

If you are serious about getting into manufacturing, you might try The Food Source - http://www.foodsourceinc.com/dairy.asp?subcat=13   I think they are located near you too and they have a pretty user friendly sample program.

CL


Craig,

Thanks so much for giving me the links to where spray dried shortening can be found.  :) I will do some contacting. I did get two samples, from the Abitec Corporation, but am looking for more to try.

I did contact another company today to see what they might have.  I donít know how serious I am about getting into manufacturing a pizza crust mix until I can see how good of a pizza crust mix can be made.  I donít want a regular pizza crust mix that doesnít even have much taste after it is baked into a pizza.  I donít know if my expectations or to high or not, but it is interesting to try.

Norma
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