Author Topic: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough  (Read 26568 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2011, 08:32:32 AM »
I did email Edna pictures of my last experimental pie, using the Stretch-Out product in the Lehmann dough and also asked her if I didnít use all the Stretch-Out product within 9 months if I could freeze the Stretch-Out product to extend its life.  She said yes, the Stretch-Out product can be frozen to extend its life.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2011, 07:22:23 AM »
This is what happened with another experiment using the stretch-out product if anyone is interested.  For this experiment I used a Reinhart dough with a higher hydration and a fair amount of oil and honey.  The dough felt nice when it was being opened, and was soft, but keep stretching and stretching.  When I finally placed it on the peel, it want to stick and kept stretching. I still proceeded to sauce the skin, but when I couldnít get it loose from the peel in many places, I ended up with a blob of sauce and dough.  What a mess in the end, but Steve and I got a good chuckle out of what happened.  :-D I never saw a dough keep stretching like the dough did on this one.   ::)

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 07:27:03 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2011, 12:02:01 PM »
Norma,

That was a good experiment if only to tell you that you can't go too high with the hydration, whether it is the amount of water or the "wetness" that is contributed by the oil and honey. If your stand was hot also, and you didn't get the finished dough temperature to about 78 degrees F, that might also have contributed to the extensibility of the dough.

I would save the photos. You can show them to people and tell them that you field dressed a hog at your stand at market.

Peter


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2011, 02:11:08 PM »
Norma,

That was a good experiment if only to tell you that you can't go too high with the hydration, whether it is the amount of water or the "wetness" that is contributed by the oil and honey. If your stand was hot also, and you didn't get the finished dough temperature to about 78 degrees F, that might also have contributed to the extensibility of the dough.

I would save the photos. You can show them to people and tell them that you field dressed a hog at your stand at market.

Peter



Peter or anyone that might be interested,

I might do that same experiment over again next week to see if the results I got were okay.  There were too many variables in the experiment, with the stretch-out product, using a Reinhart dough like John was experimenting with in his hybrid Reinhart thread, recently.  I first used really hot water, second, the market temperatures were around 96 degrees F, third, I let the dough ferment longer than I should have (about 3 Ĺ hrs.) and fourth, I didnít put the yeast in the dough for about 1 Ĺ hrs. later, after I first mixed the dough.  The dough was balled after a punch down and another reball. Steve had done an experiment last week and had reballed his regular Lehmann dough (with the stretch-out product), after a much longer time. His regular Lehmann dough (with the stretch-out product) did behave fine after a much longer ferment and reballs. That is what I was trying to see if anything could be achieved with another dough formula, and still keep the reball after a few hours like Steve did.  I know I created too many variables, but at first the dough didnít behave badly.  I couldnít believe how it just deteriorated so fast.  If any members want to see what can happen to dough when it deteriorates, these are so good pictures to show them.

I still have to chuckle when I look at those pictures.  There was even dough on the floor at my stand with bits of sauce from me just trying to carry the dough over to the trash can.  That is how much that dough had deteriorated.  It sure did look like Steve and I field dressed a hog at my stand.  :-D If the sauce wouldnít have been applied I would have dedicated that post to Bill, because I told him if I ever could stretch the dough really far, I would dedicate a post to him, earlier in this thread.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2011, 08:36:26 PM »
I knew I had another picture to post about how the dough looked before using the dough ball with the stretch-out product.  This picture was taken after the second reball and rise.  I really think I did let this dough ball ferment too long, because there were bubbles on the top of the dough ball, which can be seen in this picture.  In first ferment, the dough ball also had the same bubbles before the reball.  Just found the picture I was looking for.

Picture below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2011, 10:41:21 PM »
Well, the Stretch-Out pie experiment with the Reinhart dough went a lot better today, than my last attempt.  The dough was easy to open, but didnít keep stretching as my last dough did.  I only fermented the Reinhart dough with the Stretch-Out product for 1 Ĺ hrs. today and didnít add all the variables I did in my last experiment.  I also changed the flour to KASL this time.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2011, 10:44:35 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2011, 10:46:51 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2011, 09:21:58 PM »
I had emailed Edna the pictures of my last pie I made with the Stretch Out product, a couple of days after I made it and also described to her how the pie tasted. Usually she emails me back, but this time she didnít.  I had also told Edna about the foul up I had made when I used the Stretch Out product and messed things up in the formula and also let the dough ferment to long on a hot day.  She didnít answer back on that email either. 

I think I am going to use the EL-7 product in a test Lehman dough on Tuesday.  I would have emailed Edna to see if she had any other instructions other than what were sent, that I typed out at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841 but since she hasnít been emailed me back, I guess I will just try out a Lehmann dough and use EL-7 by  0.375% based on the flour weight.  I guess the regular Lehmann dough would be the best dough formula to try the EL-7 product on, but I am not sure.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2011, 09:47:29 PM »
Norma,

I hope the photos that you sent to Edna weren't the "field dressed pig entrails" photos at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg141261.html#msg141261. Those photos might not make good advertising copy for the Stretch Out product for Caravan :-D.

I agree with you that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a good choice to use the EL-7 product with. However, since the really active ingredient in that product is the L-cysteine, which ensures a less bucky dough, I think I would use a high-gluten flour. It is that type of flour that is likely to produce an elastic dough that should benefit from the EL-7.

By way of recapitulation, the ingredients in the EL-7 product are as follows: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme. Since you are using the EL-7 product at only 0.375% of the total flour weight, I don't think that there should be any need to adjust the total flour, salt or oil quantities for your basic Lehmann dough. One thing you might consider, however, is to use a much lower hydration than usual so as to intentionally create a stiff and potentially bucky/elastic dough. That might be a better test of the EL-7 product than using it with a more hydrated dough. If you use your regular Lehmann hydration, you might end up with a dough that runs away from you as you try to open up the dough ball. However, that might lead to another set of interesting photos for you to send to Edna :-D.

Peter


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2011, 10:44:56 PM »
Norma,

I hope the photos that you sent to Edna weren't the "field dressed pig entrails" photos at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg141261.html#msg141261. Those photos might not make good advertising copy for the Stretch Out product for Caravan :-D.

I agree with you that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a good choice to use the EL-7 product with. However, since the really active ingredient in that product is the L-cysteine, which ensures a less bucky dough, I think I would use a high-gluten flour. It is that type of flour that is likely to produce an elastic dough that should benefit from the EL-7.

By way of recapitulation, the ingredients in the EL-7 product are as follows: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme. Since you are using the EL-7 product at only 0.375% of the total flour weight, I don't think that there should be any need to adjust the total flour, salt or oil quantities for your basic Lehmann dough. One thing you might consider, however, is to use a much lower hydration than usual so as to intentionally create a stiff and potentially bucky/elastic dough. That might be a better test of the EL-7 product than using it with a more hydrated dough. If you use your regular Lehmann hydration, you might end up with a dough that runs away from you as you try to open up the dough ball. However, that might lead to another set of interesting photos for you to send to Edna :-D.

Peter



Peter,

I did send Edna the photos of the ďfield dresses pig entrailsĒ, but told her I had made some mistakes when mixing the formula and also told her I let the dough ferment way too long, because the temperatures at market were very hot.  I hope I explained to her in enough detail that it was all my fault that the Stretch-Out product didnít work like it was intended.  I also hope Caravan Foods didnít get to see those photos.  I had told Edna before I would tell her my results whether good or bad.  I also told Edna I will run the same test, using the same formula the next week to make sure it was my fault that the Stretch Out product didnít work.  I then thought she would be satisfied to see that it was my fault that the Stretch Out product didnít work, in my failed pig experiment.   :-D

I will use a high gluten flour in the experiment with the EL-7.  What kind of hydration do you suggest to use?  I have tasted the EL-7 and it also tastes very salty.  I really donít think any salt will need to be added, but I could be wrong.  I also wonder if the soy oil in the EL-7 will be enough that I wonít need to add any oil to the regular Lehmann dough. It would seem like the EL-7 product does have enough oil, but I am not sure about that either.  I can make a ďgoody bagĒ again, because the EL-7 is a dry product.  I can only hope I donít get more of those interesting photos. 

On another note, Adam at the Food Source Ingredients, Inc. never got back to me if I will get any of the sample of the shortening powder to try in my mystery thread.  I did email him once.  Maybe food ingredient companies are getting tired of me experimenting with their products.  I will email Adam again or call him. 

Picture of EL-7 product.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2011, 10:50:48 PM »
Norma,

What size Lehmann pizza will you be making and with what thickness factor?

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2011, 11:12:27 PM »
Norma,

What size Lehmann pizza will you be making and with what thickness factor?

Peter


Peter,

I plan to use the same size (16") and thickness factor 0.105, that I used at Reply 22 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg139204.html#msg139204

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2011, 07:34:03 AM »
Norma,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to show you what I have in mind in the way of a dough formulation to play around with using the EL-7 product. For this purpose, I used an unused field in the tool as a proxy for the EL-7 and I assumed that the salt is Morton's Kosher salt:

High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.375%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
EL-7 (0.375%):
Total (160.5%):
378.5 g  |  13.35 oz | 0.83 lbs
215.74 g  |  7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz
607.49 g | 21.43 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.106575
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.105; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note from the above that I used a hydration of 57%. Hopefully that will be low enough to give the EL-7 product a chance to show what it can do to make the dough softer and more extensible. I also used 0.375% IDY on the assumption that you might use a one-day cold fermentation of the dough. You can, of course, change that to whatever you would like based on your prior experience working with the Lehmann doughs.

I wouldn't worry about the effects of the salt and oil in the EL-7 product on the rest of the dough. To test the effects of the salt and oil on the Lehmann dough formulation given above, I did a few simple calculations in which I assumed first that all of the EL-7 product is salt and then that all of the EL-7 product is oil (which we know, of course, is not true). These calculations would have the effect of increasing the total formula salt from 1.75% to about 2.1% salt and to about 1.4% oil. These values are in the normal range. The actual final values will be less. As previously noted, the predominant ingredient in the EL-7 product is flour. But the critical component from an operational standpoint is the L-Cysteine, not the flour, salt or oil. I do not believe that Caravan would create a product that messes up a basic dough formula. Otherwise, they would have to tell users the percents of all of the ingredients used in the EL-7 product.

I did not convert the EL-7 to volume measurements in the dough formulation presented above since I did not see any conversion data in the information you provided on that product. You will have to conduct several weighings of a known volume of the EL-7, average the weighings, and convert the average to a volume measurement (e.g., a teaspoon). This is the method that you have used before.

Good luck with your experiment.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 08:51:02 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2011, 08:33:46 AM »
Norma,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to show you what I have in mind in the way of a dough formulation to play around with using the EL-7 product. For this purpose, I used an unused field in the tool as a proxy for the EL-7 and I assumed that the salt is Morton's Kosher salt:

High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.375%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
EL-7 (0.375%):
Total (160.5%):
378.5 g  |  13.35 oz | 0.83 lbs
215.74 g  |  7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz
607.49 g | 21.43 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.106575
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note from the above that I used a hydration of 57%. Hopefully that will be low enough to give the EL-7 product a chance to show what it can do to make the dough softer and more extensible. I also used 0.375% IDY on the assumption that you might use a one-day cold fermentation of the dough. You can, of course, change that to whatever you would like based on your prior experience working with the Lehmann doughs.

I wouldn't worry about the effects of the salt and oil in the EL-7 product on the rest of the dough. To test the effects of the salt and oil on the Lehmann dough formulation given above, I did a few simple calculations in which I assumed first that all of the EL-7 product is salt and then that all of the EL-7 product is oil (which we know, of course, is not true). These calculations would have the effect of increasing the total formula salt from 1.75% to about 2.1% salt and to about 1.4% oil. These values are in the normal range. The actual final values will be less. As previously noted, the predominant ingredient in the EL-7 product is flour. But the critical component from an operational standpoint is the L-Cysteine, not the flour, salt or oil. I do not believe that Caravan would create a product that messes up a basic dough formula. Otherwise, they would have to tell users the percents of all of the ingredients used in the EL-7 product.

I did not convert the EL-7 to volume measurements in the dough formulation presented above since I did not see any conversion data in the information you provided on that product. You will have to conduct several weighings of a known volume of the EL-7, average the weighings, and convert the average to a volume measurement (e.g., a teaspoon). This is the method that you have used before.

Good luck with your experiment.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for setting-forth a dough formula for me to try using the EL-7 product.  I did go on the Caravan website again this morning and tried to find more information about the EL-7 product, but I couldn't even find it listed.  I also emailed Edna again.  I will see if she replies to my email.

I do plan on doing a one day cold ferment.  I will do several weighings of the EL-7 product and average them to then be able to convert to volume measurements.

Thanks for the good luck!

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2011, 05:57:38 PM »
I mixed the Lehmann dough with the EL-7 this morning that Peter set-forth the formula for.  I used my Kitchen Aid mixer and mixed on speed one and two.  All the other ingredients were put into the mixing bowl and mixed before the olive oil was added.  The final dough temperature was 79.5 degrees F.  I let the dough rest for 15 minutes and then shaped it into a dough ball.  The dough felt soft.  The Lehmann dough ball with the EL-7 is at market now.  I did weigh out the EL-7 product 5 times in a 1/4 cup measuring cup and the average weight was 20 grams, so I guess the 20 grams is divided by 6.

I did get a reply from Edna at Caravan Foods.  This is what she replied to my email that I had sent this morning.

Hello Norma,
Donít you worry about a thing Ė I was in California at a food show and am really behind on my work Ė I cover 5 States and I am on over-load these days Ė lol.  I am grateful that you take the time to share your results and I must say sometimes itís 10 or 11 pm before I get an opportunity to review your e-mail but itís always interesting.  I have attached the EL-7 information for your review but a good starting point is .375 to .50% per 100 pounds of flour. Please let me know if you have any questions Ė Take care.
 
Regards,

Edna

The attached EL-7 information Edna sent me, was the same as I had posted before.

At least she isnít upset with me for making the slaughtered pig dough that sure didnít turn into a Sukie pizza.  :-D

Picture of Lehmann dough ball with EL-7

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2011, 06:32:41 PM »
I did weigh out the EL-7 product 5 times in a 1/4 cup measuring cup and the average weight was 20 grams, so I guess the 20 grams is divided by 6.

Norma,

Since one-quarter cup contains 12 teaspoons, the correct divisor is 12. That means that one teaspoon of the EL-7 product weighs 20/12= 1.67 grams, or 0.0589 ounces. For the dough formulation you used, the volume amount of the EL-7 product is about 7/8 of a teaspoon (1.42/1.66).

The dough ball looks good.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2011, 07:15:24 PM »
Peter,

I made a mistake when I posted on my last post.  I weighed the EL-7 out in a 1/4 cup because I had taken my 1/8 cup to market.  I then just divided the 1/4 cup measurement in half for 1/8 cup.  Really the average of the weighings in the 1/4 cup were 40 grams.

I also forgot to post I did use ADM Gigantic High Gluten flour in the Lehmann dough with the EL-7. http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/USWheat/Pages/Gigantic.aspx

I checked on the dough ball while I was at market and it seemed drier on top.  I did oil the dough ball at home.  I guess I will wait and see how the Lehmann dough ball with EL-7  performs tomorrow.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2011, 07:35:56 PM »
I made a mistake when I posted on my last post.  I weighed the EL-7 out in a 1/4 cup because I had taken my 1/8 cup to market.  I then just divided the 1/4 cup measurement in half for 1/8 cup.  Really the average of the weighings in the 1/4 cup were 40 grams.

Norma,

Thanks for the corrected values. That means that one teaspoon of the EL-7 product weighs 40/12= 3.33 grams, or 0.11758 ounces, and 1.42 grams is 1.42/3.33 = 0.43 teaspoons, or between 3/8 and 1/2 teapoon. Did I get that right?

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2011, 07:43:28 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the corrected values. That means that one teaspoon of the EL-7 product weighs 40/12= 3.33 grams, or 0.11758 ounces, and 1.42 grams is 1.42/3.33 = 0.43 teaspoons, or between 3/8 and 1/2 teapoon. Did I get that right?

Peter

Peter,

You did get the numbers right.  It is me sometimes that gets the numbers wrong.   :-D  Sorry for the confusion.

Norma
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