Author Topic: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough  (Read 38328 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2011, 12:36:17 PM »
Norma,

Exciting results.

What % by weight of flour was the Stretch-out?

C:

Craig,

At Reply 22 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg139204.html#msg139204 you can see what formula I used, with the Stretch-Out product being 4% of the flour weight.  I had used  the Stretch-Out product in the Bakerís Non-Fat Milk field.

Steve and I found it interesting how fast a dough and final pizza could be made, with no problems with the dough or final bake.

Norma


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2011, 02:42:11 PM »
I had wondered why you had suggested the 0.883% IDY for the yeast amount.  Now I think I understand why you picked that value.  I wonder what amount Edna would suggest.

Norma,

The pizza dough recipe that came with the Stretch-Out product called for 2.5 pounds of compressed yeast for 100 pounds of flour (Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841). That comes to 2.5%. I simply converted from fresh yeast, which I assumed you did not have on hand, to IDY--by dividing 2.5% by 3 to get 0.833% IDY.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2011, 08:49:29 AM »
This is the email I received from Edna this morning about the temperature of water to use for the Stretch-Out product. I told Edna I had used hot water in my experiment with the Stretch-Out product.  I had asked Edna in my email if it mattered if I used really hot water.  I also told her I would think that a final dough temperature would be a better indicator of how the dough would preform. Included in my last email, I also had asked Edna about where to find Soybean or Cottonseed oil for another thread I am working on.

I had sent Edna pictures of the pizza made with the Stretch-Out product.

Good Morning Norma,
 
I love your results - - this is very reason I will have Pizza for lunch Ė LOL!   Your target dough temp. coming out of the bowl should be around 78 F.  I am not sure what the minimum is for Lentz Milling for the Soybean or Cottonseed Oil.
Lentz Milling
800-523-8131
2045 N. 11th Street
Reading, Pa. 19612-3159
 
Lentz is like US Foods Ė but they only Bakery Products.  You are lucky to have a distributor think Lentz in your State.  They carry all Caravan Products.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2011, 09:42:22 AM »
Norma,

Here is the link to the Lentz website: http://www.lentzmilling.com/. I believe that what you are looking for is a partially hydrogenated oil, such as partially hydrogenated soybean or cottonseed oil, or even a combination of those two oils. There should be nothing else in the compositions.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2011, 10:25:39 AM »
Norma,

Here is the link to the Lentz website: http://www.lentzmilling.com/. I believe that what you are looking for is a partially hydrogenated oil, such as partially hydrogenated soybean or cottonseed oil, or even a combination of those two oils. There should be nothing else in the compositions.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the Lentz website.  I will use the contact page on the Lentz website and see if they have the oil or combination of oils to try in my mystery thread.  I only live about an hour away from Lentz, so I will see what they carry.  If they have what you suggested, I could go there and purchase the product.  I probably would have to create an account first.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2011, 11:52:16 AM »
The Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, was experimented with the same formula I had used before, but this time I used ADM bleached and bromated flour as the flour, to see what would happen.  This time the dough, mixed by hand, fermented quicker than last week.  It was ready to be used in less than 1 Ĺ hrs.  I attributed the quicker ferment to the higher ambient temperatures at market yesterday, but I am not sure if that is why the dough did ferment faster.

The dough ball was very easy to open, and the final pizza did taste very good, with a decent oven spring and a nice moistness in the rim.  The only thing I could detect with using the ADM bleached and bromated flour, was the rim and bottom crust were much crisper, than when I used the KABF last week.  All in all, the Stretch-Out product does make a pizza dough really fast and the final taste of the crust is like about a 2 day cold fermented Lehmann dough.

Steve also got some interesting results with a Stretch-Out dough he brought to market yesterday.  He also tried a Stretch-Out Lehmann dough at home.  His formulas were a little bit different than mine.  Steve is having problems uploading all his pictures on his computer, but did say he would report on his results, when he can upload the pictures.  He used KASL in his experiments with the Stretch-Out product.  His first Stretch-Out pie was made at home and the other was made at market yesterday.  He took pictures of both bakes, so when he can get the pictures uploaded, he will post on his results.

Pictures of my Stretch-Out pizza yesterday.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2011, 12:01:01 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2011, 12:03:21 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2011, 12:23:32 PM »
Norma,

Many pizza operators resort to emergency doughs when they either run out of their regular dough or something happens, like an overnight power failure, that renders the regular dough unusable. Tom Lehmann believes that one shouldn't ordinarily run out of dough with proper planning but he does approve of using emergency doughs as a result of something unexpected like a power failure. Usually the emergency dough is a version of the regular dough but with more yeast and hotter water. In your case, if you are satisfied with the Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, that could become your emergency dough version for use at market. It is unlikely to be the equal of your preferment Lehmann dough but most customers, if they even notice that the slices taste different, aren't likely to balk, especially under the circumstances.

Peter


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2011, 02:49:04 PM »
Norma,

Many pizza operators resort to emergency doughs when they either run out of their regular dough or something happens, like an overnight power failure, that renders the regular dough unusable. Tom Lehmann believes that one shouldn't ordinarily run out of dough with proper planning but he does approve of using emergency doughs as a result of something unexpected like a power failure. Usually the emergency dough is a version of the regular dough but with more yeast and hotter water. In your case, if you are satisfied with the Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, that could become your emergency dough version for use at market. It is unlikely to be the equal of your preferment Lehmann dough but most customers, if they even notice that the slices taste different, aren't likely to balk, especially under the circumstances.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the idea to use the Stretch-Out product for an emergency Lehmann dough, if I would have a power failure or maybe one of my fridges wouldnít work.  I donít think the Stretch-Out Lehmann dough is as good as the preferment Lehmann dough, but it could work in an emergency.  I want to do a few more experiments with the Stretch-Out product, but so far I really like the results.

When I email Edna, I will ask her, if the Stretch-Out product can be frozen.  I never really had an emergency dough.  A little while ago, someone did turn the switch off at the one of the main fuse boxes and I donít know how long my electricity was off, but I was worried about my dough. 

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2011, 08:32:32 AM »
I did email Edna pictures of my last experimental pie, using the Stretch-Out product in the Lehmann dough and also asked her if I didnít use all the Stretch-Out product within 9 months if I could freeze the Stretch-Out product to extend its life.  She said yes, the Stretch-Out product can be frozen to extend its life.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2011, 07:22:23 AM »
This is what happened with another experiment using the stretch-out product if anyone is interested.  For this experiment I used a Reinhart dough with a higher hydration and a fair amount of oil and honey.  The dough felt nice when it was being opened, and was soft, but keep stretching and stretching.  When I finally placed it on the peel, it want to stick and kept stretching. I still proceeded to sauce the skin, but when I couldnít get it loose from the peel in many places, I ended up with a blob of sauce and dough.  What a mess in the end, but Steve and I got a good chuckle out of what happened.  :-D I never saw a dough keep stretching like the dough did on this one.   ::)

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 07:27:03 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2011, 12:02:01 PM »
Norma,

That was a good experiment if only to tell you that you can't go too high with the hydration, whether it is the amount of water or the "wetness" that is contributed by the oil and honey. If your stand was hot also, and you didn't get the finished dough temperature to about 78 degrees F, that might also have contributed to the extensibility of the dough.

I would save the photos. You can show them to people and tell them that you field dressed a hog at your stand at market.

Peter


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2011, 02:11:08 PM »
Norma,

That was a good experiment if only to tell you that you can't go too high with the hydration, whether it is the amount of water or the "wetness" that is contributed by the oil and honey. If your stand was hot also, and you didn't get the finished dough temperature to about 78 degrees F, that might also have contributed to the extensibility of the dough.

I would save the photos. You can show them to people and tell them that you field dressed a hog at your stand at market.

Peter



Peter or anyone that might be interested,

I might do that same experiment over again next week to see if the results I got were okay.  There were too many variables in the experiment, with the stretch-out product, using a Reinhart dough like John was experimenting with in his hybrid Reinhart thread, recently.  I first used really hot water, second, the market temperatures were around 96 degrees F, third, I let the dough ferment longer than I should have (about 3 Ĺ hrs.) and fourth, I didnít put the yeast in the dough for about 1 Ĺ hrs. later, after I first mixed the dough.  The dough was balled after a punch down and another reball. Steve had done an experiment last week and had reballed his regular Lehmann dough (with the stretch-out product), after a much longer time. His regular Lehmann dough (with the stretch-out product) did behave fine after a much longer ferment and reballs. That is what I was trying to see if anything could be achieved with another dough formula, and still keep the reball after a few hours like Steve did.  I know I created too many variables, but at first the dough didnít behave badly.  I couldnít believe how it just deteriorated so fast.  If any members want to see what can happen to dough when it deteriorates, these are so good pictures to show them.

I still have to chuckle when I look at those pictures.  There was even dough on the floor at my stand with bits of sauce from me just trying to carry the dough over to the trash can.  That is how much that dough had deteriorated.  It sure did look like Steve and I field dressed a hog at my stand.  :-D If the sauce wouldnít have been applied I would have dedicated that post to Bill, because I told him if I ever could stretch the dough really far, I would dedicate a post to him, earlier in this thread.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2011, 08:36:26 PM »
I knew I had another picture to post about how the dough looked before using the dough ball with the stretch-out product.  This picture was taken after the second reball and rise.  I really think I did let this dough ball ferment too long, because there were bubbles on the top of the dough ball, which can be seen in this picture.  In first ferment, the dough ball also had the same bubbles before the reball.  Just found the picture I was looking for.

Picture below

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2011, 10:41:21 PM »
Well, the Stretch-Out pie experiment with the Reinhart dough went a lot better today, than my last attempt.  The dough was easy to open, but didnít keep stretching as my last dough did.  I only fermented the Reinhart dough with the Stretch-Out product for 1 Ĺ hrs. today and didnít add all the variables I did in my last experiment.  I also changed the flour to KASL this time.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2011, 10:44:35 PM »
more pictures

Norma


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2011, 10:46:51 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2011, 09:21:58 PM »
I had emailed Edna the pictures of my last pie I made with the Stretch Out product, a couple of days after I made it and also described to her how the pie tasted. Usually she emails me back, but this time she didnít.  I had also told Edna about the foul up I had made when I used the Stretch Out product and messed things up in the formula and also let the dough ferment to long on a hot day.  She didnít answer back on that email either. 

I think I am going to use the EL-7 product in a test Lehman dough on Tuesday.  I would have emailed Edna to see if she had any other instructions other than what were sent, that I typed out at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841 but since she hasnít been emailed me back, I guess I will just try out a Lehmann dough and use EL-7 by  0.375% based on the flour weight.  I guess the regular Lehmann dough would be the best dough formula to try the EL-7 product on, but I am not sure.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2011, 09:47:29 PM »
Norma,

I hope the photos that you sent to Edna weren't the "field dressed pig entrails" photos at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg141261.html#msg141261. Those photos might not make good advertising copy for the Stretch Out product for Caravan :-D.

I agree with you that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a good choice to use the EL-7 product with. However, since the really active ingredient in that product is the L-cysteine, which ensures a less bucky dough, I think I would use a high-gluten flour. It is that type of flour that is likely to produce an elastic dough that should benefit from the EL-7.

By way of recapitulation, the ingredients in the EL-7 product are as follows: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme. Since you are using the EL-7 product at only 0.375% of the total flour weight, I don't think that there should be any need to adjust the total flour, salt or oil quantities for your basic Lehmann dough. One thing you might consider, however, is to use a much lower hydration than usual so as to intentionally create a stiff and potentially bucky/elastic dough. That might be a better test of the EL-7 product than using it with a more hydrated dough. If you use your regular Lehmann hydration, you might end up with a dough that runs away from you as you try to open up the dough ball. However, that might lead to another set of interesting photos for you to send to Edna :-D.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2011, 10:44:56 PM »
Norma,

I hope the photos that you sent to Edna weren't the "field dressed pig entrails" photos at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg141261.html#msg141261. Those photos might not make good advertising copy for the Stretch Out product for Caravan :-D.

I agree with you that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a good choice to use the EL-7 product with. However, since the really active ingredient in that product is the L-cysteine, which ensures a less bucky dough, I think I would use a high-gluten flour. It is that type of flour that is likely to produce an elastic dough that should benefit from the EL-7.

By way of recapitulation, the ingredients in the EL-7 product are as follows: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme. Since you are using the EL-7 product at only 0.375% of the total flour weight, I don't think that there should be any need to adjust the total flour, salt or oil quantities for your basic Lehmann dough. One thing you might consider, however, is to use a much lower hydration than usual so as to intentionally create a stiff and potentially bucky/elastic dough. That might be a better test of the EL-7 product than using it with a more hydrated dough. If you use your regular Lehmann hydration, you might end up with a dough that runs away from you as you try to open up the dough ball. However, that might lead to another set of interesting photos for you to send to Edna :-D.

Peter


Peter,

I did send Edna the photos of the ďfield dresses pig entrailsĒ, but told her I had made some mistakes when mixing the formula and also told her I let the dough ferment way too long, because the temperatures at market were very hot.  I hope I explained to her in enough detail that it was all my fault that the Stretch-Out product didnít work like it was intended.  I also hope Caravan Foods didnít get to see those photos.  I had told Edna before I would tell her my results whether good or bad.  I also told Edna I will run the same test, using the same formula the next week to make sure it was my fault that the Stretch Out product didnít work.  I then thought she would be satisfied to see that it was my fault that the Stretch Out product didnít work, in my failed pig experiment.   :-D

I will use a high gluten flour in the experiment with the EL-7.  What kind of hydration do you suggest to use?  I have tasted the EL-7 and it also tastes very salty.  I really donít think any salt will need to be added, but I could be wrong.  I also wonder if the soy oil in the EL-7 will be enough that I wonít need to add any oil to the regular Lehmann dough. It would seem like the EL-7 product does have enough oil, but I am not sure about that either.  I can make a ďgoody bagĒ again, because the EL-7 is a dry product.  I can only hope I donít get more of those interesting photos. 

On another note, Adam at the Food Source Ingredients, Inc. never got back to me if I will get any of the sample of the shortening powder to try in my mystery thread.  I did email him once.  Maybe food ingredient companies are getting tired of me experimenting with their products.  I will email Adam again or call him. 

Picture of EL-7 product.

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2011, 10:50:48 PM »
Norma,

What size Lehmann pizza will you be making and with what thickness factor?

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2011, 11:12:27 PM »
Norma,

What size Lehmann pizza will you be making and with what thickness factor?

Peter

Peter,

I plan to use the same size (16") and thickness factor 0.105, that I used at Reply 22 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg139204.html#msg139204

Norma

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2011, 07:34:03 AM »
Norma,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to show you what I have in mind in the way of a dough formulation to play around with using the EL-7 product. For this purpose, I used an unused field in the tool as a proxy for the EL-7 and I assumed that the salt is Morton's Kosher salt:

High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.375%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
EL-7 (0.375%):
Total (160.5%):
378.5 g  |  13.35 oz | 0.83 lbs
215.74 g  |  7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz
607.49 g | 21.43 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.106575
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.105; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note from the above that I used a hydration of 57%. Hopefully that will be low enough to give the EL-7 product a chance to show what it can do to make the dough softer and more extensible. I also used 0.375% IDY on the assumption that you might use a one-day cold fermentation of the dough. You can, of course, change that to whatever you would like based on your prior experience working with the Lehmann doughs.

I wouldn't worry about the effects of the salt and oil in the EL-7 product on the rest of the dough. To test the effects of the salt and oil on the Lehmann dough formulation given above, I did a few simple calculations in which I assumed first that all of the EL-7 product is salt and then that all of the EL-7 product is oil (which we know, of course, is not true). These calculations would have the effect of increasing the total formula salt from 1.75% to about 2.1% salt and to about 1.4% oil. These values are in the normal range. The actual final values will be less. As previously noted, the predominant ingredient in the EL-7 product is flour. But the critical component from an operational standpoint is the L-Cysteine, not the flour, salt or oil. I do not believe that Caravan would create a product that messes up a basic dough formula. Otherwise, they would have to tell users the percents of all of the ingredients used in the EL-7 product.

I did not convert the EL-7 to volume measurements in the dough formulation presented above since I did not see any conversion data in the information you provided on that product. You will have to conduct several weighings of a known volume of the EL-7, average the weighings, and convert the average to a volume measurement (e.g., a teaspoon). This is the method that you have used before.

Good luck with your experiment.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 08:51:02 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2011, 08:33:46 AM »
Norma,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to show you what I have in mind in the way of a dough formulation to play around with using the EL-7 product. For this purpose, I used an unused field in the tool as a proxy for the EL-7 and I assumed that the salt is Morton's Kosher salt:

High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.375%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
EL-7 (0.375%):
Total (160.5%):
378.5 g  |  13.35 oz | 0.83 lbs
215.74 g  |  7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz
607.49 g | 21.43 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.106575
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note from the above that I used a hydration of 57%. Hopefully that will be low enough to give the EL-7 product a chance to show what it can do to make the dough softer and more extensible. I also used 0.375% IDY on the assumption that you might use a one-day cold fermentation of the dough. You can, of course, change that to whatever you would like based on your prior experience working with the Lehmann doughs.

I wouldn't worry about the effects of the salt and oil in the EL-7 product on the rest of the dough. To test the effects of the salt and oil on the Lehmann dough formulation given above, I did a few simple calculations in which I assumed first that all of the EL-7 product is salt and then that all of the EL-7 product is oil (which we know, of course, is not true). These calculations would have the effect of increasing the total formula salt from 1.75% to about 2.1% salt and to about 1.4% oil. These values are in the normal range. The actual final values will be less. As previously noted, the predominant ingredient in the EL-7 product is flour. But the critical component from an operational standpoint is the L-Cysteine, not the flour, salt or oil. I do not believe that Caravan would create a product that messes up a basic dough formula. Otherwise, they would have to tell users the percents of all of the ingredients used in the EL-7 product.

I did not convert the EL-7 to volume measurements in the dough formulation presented above since I did not see any conversion data in the information you provided on that product. You will have to conduct several weighings of a known volume of the EL-7, average the weighings, and convert the average to a volume measurement (e.g., a teaspoon). This is the method that you have used before.

Good luck with your experiment.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for setting-forth a dough formula for me to try using the EL-7 product.  I did go on the Caravan website again this morning and tried to find more information about the EL-7 product, but I couldn't even find it listed.  I also emailed Edna again.  I will see if she replies to my email.

I do plan on doing a one day cold ferment.  I will do several weighings of the EL-7 product and average them to then be able to convert to volume measurements.

Thanks for the good luck!

Norma