Author Topic: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough  (Read 28476 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #180 on: July 30, 2011, 05:01:54 PM »
Norma,

I will address your question about laminated doughs for the cracker style in a later post but in this post I would like to address the matter of your 177-gram dough skin and your 150 grams of scrap dough.

As you know, the way I practice DKM's recipe is math-centric. By that, I mean that I try to achieve a specific thickness factor for the skin that is to be used to make the cracker style pizza. That is the only way I know to do it to have a reasonable chance of achieving the results I am looking for. This would not be a problem if I had a commercial sheeter or roller. It is harder to do this with a rolliing pin, or at least until one has learned how to roll out a particular weight of dough to a particular size (after trimming for roundness) that corresponds to the desired thickness factor value. The way that I did it with my various cracker style skins was to use the expanded dough calculating tool with a pizza size one inch greater than the desired final skin size. That meant having some scrap dough left over but it increased my chances of getting a perfectly round skin.

In your case, for the 177-gram skin that you made, I calculate the thickness factor to be 0.045578. I'd like to show you how I calculated this value so that you should be able to do similar calculations in your future efforts with this style of pizza. All you need is a standard calculator and to perform four simple steps in succession (without any interruption in the four steps when using the calculator). Here are the four steps:

Step 1: Divide the skin weight of 177 by 28.35. This converts the weight of the skin from grams to ounces. In this case, 177/28.35 = 6.2433862 ounces.
Step 2: Divide the results in Step 1 by 3.14159; this gives us 6.2433862/3.14159 = 1.9873332.
Step 3: Divide the results in Step 2 by 7 (this is the radius of the skin, or 14"/2" = 7); this yields a value of 1.9873332/7 = 0.2839047.
Step 4: Divide the results in Step 3 by 7 again; this yields a value of 0.2839047/7 = 0.0405578.

As you can see, your skin is on the thin side. It is actually quite a bit lower than the thickness factor that I originally calculated for the Ultra-Thin skins, which was around 0.055. Unfortunately, when the thickness factor of a skin is too low (that is, the skin is underweight), there is no easy or simple or practical way of increasing its thickness factor value. If the thickness factor of the skin is too high (that is, the skin is overweight), then all one needs to do is roll the skin out a bit more and trim off more scrap.

In a way, I am kind of glad that your skin came out on the underweight side. I don't recall going as low on the thickness factor as your skin, so I'd be curious to see how the final pizza comes out in terms of crust characteristics.

For the scrap dough weighing 150 grams, if we go with a thickness factor of 0.06, the skin size is equal to two times the square root of (150/28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 10.6", or a bit over 10 1/2". You may not be able to get the skin exactly round but I think you should come close enough for your purposes. With practice, you will get better with your estimations of how much to roll the skins out.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:03:32 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #181 on: July 30, 2011, 05:46:00 PM »
Peter,

I appreciate you explaining how you try to achieve a specific thickness factor for the skin that is to be used for a cracker-style dough, and explaining to me how to do the calculations myself the next time. 

I can see my skin is on the thin side, since you did the calculations.  I can understand there is no practical or easy way of increasing the TF after the skin was cut. 

Thanks for figuring out what size pizza my scrap dough will make. 

I know I will need some more practice, to be able to estimate the TF when rolling the dough out for a cracker style crust.  I also had problems with that when I was trying to roll out skins for the Ultra-thin thread.  I think I then put the skin on the scales, and just cut enough off, until the scales showed I had the right weight.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #182 on: July 30, 2011, 06:56:33 PM »
Norma,

Here is my mini-tutorial on laminated skins for the cracker style of pizza. It is based on my personal experience with laminated doughs, although I also read all of the posts on the forum on the cracker style before I decided to try that style.

As I see it, there are basically two ways of creating laminated skins. The first method entails folding a rolled out skin upon itself one or more times (usually many times) and re-rolling after each fold. For convenience of discussion, I will refer to this method as the "fold-and-roll" lamination method. The second method is to form two or more rolled-out skins and overlay or superimpose them on top of each other to form a unitary laminated assembly (for increased flakiness one may also add things between the superimposed skins such as flour, butter, oil, etc.). Once the skins are superimposed, it might be necessary to roll out the laminated assembly to the desired final size. I will refer to this method as the "roll-and-overlay" lamination method.

In general terms, I believe that both methods work better with high hydration doughs than low hydration doughs. For the cracker style dough, I am thinking of a general hydration range of around 35-45%, or maybe as high as 50%. Above this range, it gets harder to make a pizza with the typical characteristics of the cracker style pizza, no matter whether a lamination method is used or not. In my case with the basic DKM recipe, I chose not to use either of the lamination methods. From past experience, I had discovered that using the fold-and-roll method required a lot of brute force rolling and allowing the dough to rest from time to time before resuming the rolling process. That held true even when I used my proofing box to soften the dough before rolling. Had I made small pizzas, I suspect that I might have had less difficulty, but I was trying to make 14" pizzas, which meant rolling out the skin beyond 14" and trimming it back to size. It seemed to me that the larger the pizza size, the more the rolling and the more the difficulty to get the skin out to the final size without toughening it because of overworked gluten. In just about all of my DKM-styled cracker pizzas, I tried as much as possible not to end up with a tough dough that would impede forming a crispy or flaky crust.

By contrast to the fold-and-roll method, I found the roll-and-overlay method easier to execute than the fold-and-roll method, although that method entailed a lot of rolling also, but not the rolling of multi-layered skins, only individual skins. Again, I found that a higher hydration worked well for this method, as I noted and discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg43956.html#msg43956. I had also used the roll-and-overlay lamination method to make a Chicago-style deep dish crust in order to get increased flakiness in the finished crust. As you might expect, the roll-and-overlay method becomes easier when warming up the dough, as by using a proofing box.

Based on the experiments you have conducted with the EL-7 product to date, it does not appear that that product is as effective with really low-hydration doughs as high-hydration doughs, at least not alone (e.g., without warming up the dough also). Since we don't know the breakdown of the EL-7 product into its constituent parts by percent, it may well be that achieving success with the EL-7 product is a matter of ascertaining the proper amount to use. It may also be possible that the PZ-44 product, of which you now have a sample, may be a more effective product than the EL-7 product when used at the proper level.

In deciding how to proceed using a lamination method, you should also consider whether pre-baking is necessary or desirable or not. In my experience, I found that using a pre-bake was a more effective method for my DKM cracker style pizzas using my cutter pan and oven configuration. I was after a really crispy crust. Had I wanted a more tender, less crispy crust, I might have dressed and baked the pizza in the normal manner, i.e., without using a pre-bake. For the roll-and-overlay method described in the abovementioned thread, I found that I did not have a need to pre-bake the crust.

You also have the option of baking directly on a pizza stone or deck surface. I chose to use a cutter pan for the DKM style pizzas because it allowed me to put sauce, cheese and toppings right out to the bitter edge and not worry about any of those items slipping off of the pizza when loaded into the oven. However, I did not use the cutter pan for the pizzas made using the roll-and-overlay pizzas as discussed in the abovementioned thread. I baked the pizzas either directly on the stone or on a disk.

You might also want to read the posts on this subject of John Fazzari (fazzari). Of all the forum members, I deem his to be the "master" of the lamination method in the context of the cracker style pizza. Not only that, he is a professional pizza operator who specializes in the cracker style of pizza. You might have already noted that he posted regularly on the fold-and-roll method at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991 but also elsewhere on the forum, including at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6604.msg56637.html#msg56637. If I were to embark on a project to come up with a cracker style crust using the fold-and-roll method in particular, I would first read all of John's posts on the subject. Why reinvent the wheel when we have a passionate expert on the premises?

Peter



« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 10:10:00 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #183 on: July 30, 2011, 10:32:39 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the mini-tutorial on laminated skins for the cracker style of pizza.  I didnít realize how complicated trying to laminated skins are, and all the ways that someone could go about trying to laminated skins at home.  Laminating a crust is more to think about that I thought before.

I agree that John is the ďmasterĒ of cracker-style crusts. I will read over more of his posts.   I recently saw Johnís post on his new thought on a laminated crust at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14106.0.html  My scrap dough is too low in hydration for what he did in that thread, but it was interesting to see how his pies looked.

I probably will do a pre-bake, because I do want a crispy crust.

I also agree that I really donít think the EL-7 product did a good job so far in making the skins roll out easier, or the dough softer, expect when the homemade proofing box was used.  Maybe I will try the PZ-44 sample I have now, it future experiments with  a cracker-style pizza.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #184 on: August 02, 2011, 10:02:20 PM »
I used the skin and scrap dough to make two cracker-style pizzas tonight.  For the skin, I didnít dock, just to see what would happen.  I donít think I baked long enough on the second bake, because my bottom crust didnít get dark enough.

For the scrap dough, I divided it into four pieces, and put the four pieces into one container, in proofing box to warm-up. I rolled the four scrap dough pieces really thin, then buttered in between the layers, then rolled some more, then docked on both sides.  The weight of the scraps doughs together, after being cut round was 124 grams.

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #185 on: August 02, 2011, 10:03:16 PM »
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #186 on: August 02, 2011, 10:05:02 PM »
4 skins laminated with scrap dough.

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #187 on: August 02, 2011, 10:06:07 PM »
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #188 on: August 02, 2011, 10:07:20 PM »
Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #189 on: August 03, 2011, 08:47:04 AM »
Norma,

What were your observations on these pizzas?

Peter


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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #190 on: August 03, 2011, 10:30:00 AM »
Norma,

What were your observations on these pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

My observations for the pizza made with the skin, with the same formula I used before, (but changed to Better for Bread flour) is that is was different, than when I used AP flour.  The texture of the crust was less crispy, less tender, and not as crackery as my attempt before.  Although it wasnít as tough as the cracker-style attempts at market, it wasnít the same as my last attempt with the scrap dough.  I liked the cracker-style better from my attempt with the scrap dough.

I am not sure why I didnít get the same results, last evening, but I didnít dock the skin, (because I wanted to see what would happen with not docking the skin), the sauce I used was Lesís made fresh the day before, (it was more chunky and has more juice, than the last time), and I also donít think I did bake long enough after the pre-bake and dressing.  I would guess any or all of these changes, would change the final cracker-style pizza.

The scrap dough that was laminated (with butter between the layers) was crisp, crackery, and tender, but still wasnít like the attempt I made the other day with the scrap dough. The layers did melt in my mouth, but I did prefer the other cracker-style pizza, in all ways.  The scrap pieces of dough were easy to roll out, with a little bit of effort, (using my homemade proofing box first).  I did first roll, then used a tiny bit of bench flour, and that seemed to make the scrap dough roll out easier.  I did really rolled the four skins together before I docked, but as you can see on the pictures, the dough did become layers, although they did stay together when eating a slice.

I never knew before that trying to make a cracker-style pizza would be so difficult, to be able to get the same results.  I thought other doughs that were much higher in higher hydration were challenging (and some still are), but never thought this style of pizza would be so challenging.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 10:31:59 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #191 on: August 03, 2011, 11:29:07 AM »
Norma,

I suspected that you weren't as thrilled with your recent efforts as with the prior one because you did not comment much beyond posting the photos.

In the case of the skin with the thickness factor of around 0.04, I suspect that a good part of the bottom heat passed through the skin quickly to the sauce and toppings. Usually that leaves less heat to brown the bottom crust to the ideal or desired degree of coloration. In fact, the top of the pizza might be done before the bottom crust browns adequately. In my experience, a cracker style crust can hold a lot of stuff on it but I suppose if there are too many things on the crust, or they have a high liquid component, you might end up with a less crispy crust, even when using a thickness factor of only 0.04. I don't think the type of flour is a material factor in the results you achieved.

With respect to the laminated crust you made, at 124 grams and what appears to be a roughly 8" pizza size, that translates to a thickness factor of around 0.087. That is close to what I originally calculated for DKM's recipe as originally posted. For me, that value produced a more tender, less crispy crust. However, when I used a thickness factor of around 0.06 for a laminated skin (roll-and-overlay laminated skin), that produced a crispy finished crust. So, it may be that you have to try to achieve a thickness factor of around 0.06 for the skin to achieve the results you are after. But it may also be that you will have to make adjustments to match the skin with the right pan and oven protocol. As I noted before, I think that professionals who specialize in cracker style crusts are always having to cope with these factors, especially in coping with irregular order flows over the course of a day or where the workers who make the pizzas change often, and that may account for why customers who describe the cracker style pizzas they consume in many of the popular pizzerias specializing in that style do so in terms that are not entirely consistent. With other styles of pizza, I do not think that problem is as pronounced as with the cracker style.

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #192 on: August 03, 2011, 12:54:52 PM »
Norma,

I suspected that you weren't as thrilled with your recent efforts as with the prior one because you did not comment much beyond posting the photos.

In the case of the skin with the thickness factor of around 0.04, I suspect that a good part of the bottom heat passed through the skin quickly to the sauce and toppings. Usually that leaves less heat to brown the bottom crust to the ideal or desired degree of coloration. In fact, the top of the pizza might be done before the bottom crust browns adequately. In my experience, a cracker style crust can hold a lot of stuff on it but I suppose if there are too many things on the crust, or they have a high liquid component, you might end up with a less crispy crust, even when using a thickness factor of only 0.04. I don't think the type of flour is a material factor in the results you achieved.

With respect to the laminated crust you made, at 124 grams and what appears to be a roughly 8" pizza size, that translates to a thickness factor of around 0.087. That is close to what I originally calculated for DKM's recipe as originally posted. For me, that value produced a more tender, less crispy crust. However, when I used a thickness factor of around 0.06 for a laminated skin (roll-and-overlay laminated skin), that produced a crispy finished crust. So, it may be that you have to try to achieve a thickness factor of around 0.06 for the skin to achieve the results you are after. But it may also be that you will have to make adjustments to match the skin with the right pan and oven protocol. As I noted before, I think that professionals who specialize in cracker style crusts are always having to cope with these factors, especially in coping with irregular order flows over the course of a day or where the workers who make the pizzas change often, and that may account for why customers who describe the cracker style pizzas they consume in many of the popular pizzerias specializing in that style do so in terms that are not entirely consistent. With other styles of pizza, I do not think that problem is as pronounced as with the cracker style.

Peter

Peter,

You were right,  in I that I wasnít as thrilled by the last attempts at the cracker-style pizza.  They werenít tough like the crusts were at market, but they werenít nearly as good as the scrap piece of dough I made before into a pizza. 

I think I could have put the first pizza on my pizza stone for a little while (was on the bottom shelf), to get better bottom crust browning. (because I did bake on my middle oven shelf), but I wanted to see how the pizza crust was with just baking in the steel pan.  I would have thought such a thin pie of dough would have baked much faster.  That still intrigues me how long a cracker-style pizza takes to bake.  I saw my bottom crust didnít have enough coloration, and my cheese wasnít burning, so that might have been another option, but I didnít try it. I didnít think the flour used had any material value, but thanks for letting me know you didnít think it mattered.

It is interesting to hear that the laminated crust I used had a TF of about 0.087 and you found when using that TF it gave you a tender, less crispy crust.  I can now understand why John (fazzari) experimented so much with a cracker-style dough formulation, (and flours) to get his desired results.  I donít think any member would understand, unless they also tried some cracker-style pizzas.  They arenít the easiest to make consistently, at least in my opinion so far. 

I can understand if commercial pizza operations do make cracker-style pizza how they might come out differently in taste and texture in the crust.  I also agree, that other styles of pizzas can be more consistent to make.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #193 on: August 03, 2011, 09:58:14 PM »
I would have thought such a thin pie of dough would have baked much faster.  That still intrigues me how long a cracker-style pizza takes to bake.

Norma,

The reason for the longer bake time is a matter of basic physics. First, the DKM cracker style dough has a very low hydration--36%. You almost can't use a lower hydration and still be able to form a cohesive dough. The effect of the low hydration is to make the dough stiff and dense. Second, the dough is rolled out. That forces out gases in the dough such that the skin is like a flat piece of cardboard. When such a skin is dressed and subjected to oven heat, most of the heat passes through the skin and works on the cheese, sauce and toppings. In order to get decent bottom crust browning, you have to bake the pizza longer to allow the bottom of the crust to get sufficient heat to turn brown.

To draw a contrast, if the dough has a much higher hydration, it will be softer and expand more easily. The dough is not subjected to rolling to form a skin. In fact, in some cases, it might not even be possible to use a rolling pin to roll out such dough. When such a skin is dressed and baked, the oven heat does not pass through the skin as readily as the one described above. Rather, the dough behaves more like an insulator. As a result, more heat is directed to the bottom of the skin, raising its temperature and promoting increased bottom crust browning (and crispiness).

For additional explanations of the above principles of physics, you might take a look at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14442.msg145831/topicseen.html#msg145831 and also the links referenced therein.

It occurs to me that it might be possible to reduce or eliminate the oil used in the DKM cracker style dough in order to get a more crispy crust. The oil serves to retain the moisture in the dough and reduce its rate of evaporation, so eliminating or reducing it should allow the crust to finish baking sooner while still being crispy. However, since the oil helps hold the dough together, eliminating or reducing it might require an increase in hydration to hold the dough together and facilitate the rolling out process. The oil also provides flavor and some heat transfer characteristics that might help with final crust coloration. So, I am not sure that eliminating or reducing the amount of oil buys you that much.

I personally think that the DKM cracker style dough recipe is a well balanced recipe. However, to get the results you are looking for requires getting the thickness factor of the final skin right and properly performing the rest of the steps to pre-bake the crust and finish the pizza.

BTW, did you pre-oil the pan you used to pre-bake the skins?

Peter

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #194 on: August 03, 2011, 11:01:25 PM »
Norma,

The reason for the longer bake time is a matter of basic physics. First, the DKM cracker style dough has a very low hydration--36%. You almost can't use a lower hydration and still be able to form a cohesive dough. The effect of the low hydration is to make the dough stiff and dense. Second, the dough is rolled out. That forces out gases in the dough such that the skin is like a flat piece of cardboard. When such a skin is dressed and subjected to oven heat, most of the heat passes through the skin and works on the cheese, sauce and toppings. In order to get decent bottom crust browning, you have to bake the pizza longer to allow the bottom of the crust to get sufficient heat to turn brown.

To draw a contrast, if the dough has a much higher hydration, it will be softer and expand more easily. The dough is not subjected to rolling to form a skin. In fact, in some cases, it might not even be possible to use a rolling pin to roll out such dough. When such a skin is dressed and baked, the oven heat does not pass through the skin as readily as the one described above. Rather, the dough behaves more like an insulator. As a result, more heat is directed to the bottom of the skin, raising its temperature and promoting increased bottom crust browning (and crispiness).

For additional explanations of the above principles of physics, you might take a look at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14442.msg145831/topicseen.html#msg145831 and also the links referenced therein.

It occurs to me that it might be possible to reduce or eliminate the oil used in the DKM cracker style dough in order to get a more crispy crust. The oil serves to retain the moisture in the dough and reduce its rate of evaporation, so eliminating or reducing it should allow the crust to finish baking sooner while still being crispy. However, since the oil helps hold the dough together, eliminating or reducing it might require an increase in hydration to hold the dough together and facilitate the rolling out process. The oil also provides flavor and some heat transfer characteristics that might help with final crust coloration. So, I am not sure that eliminating or reducing the amount of oil buys you that much.

I personally think that the DKM cracker style dough recipe is a well balanced recipe. However, to get the results you are looking for requires getting the thickness factor of the final skin right and properly performing the rest of the steps to pre-bake the crust and finish the pizza.

BTW, did you pre-oil the pan you used to pre-bake the skins?

Peter

Peter,

I looked at the link you referenced, and the links within, and now it makes me wonder more about the awesome thin crust you, Buzz, and BTB tried with different variations  at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5045.0.html How did the pizzas become a thin crispy crust with the higher hydration, and all the oil you used, (30.9712 % oil, was more than I ever thought could be used in a pizza formula) ever get crispy?  I donít think I can understand the physics of that.  Your pictures and the pictures of BTB on the above thread do look like a cracker-style pizza.  Did they taste like a cracker style pizza?

I see where Tom Lehmann posted on physics 101 at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476#45476  from your links.  I can understand some of he physics involved, as you have explained to me, but donít think I can grasp the whole physics completely in different hydrations, and some higher amounts of oil, on how they can all work together.

I can understand that reducing the oil in DKMís recipe, might lead to not be able to form a dough ball without the oil.  I also think DKMís recipe is a balanced recipe.  Getting the TF just right, probably will still be a challenge for me.  I am not sure if I followed the proper steps in making the DKMís recipe this past time, because I didnít bake on the bottom rack and didnít dock the skin.  I donít know if not docking did have something to do with my last results either. 

I did oil the steel pan with vegetable oil for the last two pizzas. 

Where do you suggest I go from my last experiment with the DKM recipe, and what changes other than TF would you recommend? Do you think I should try PZ-44 in my next attempt instead of the EL-7 product to see how they differ?

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #195 on: August 04, 2011, 08:20:44 AM »
Peter,

This doesnít relate to the DKMís cracker-style recipe, which I am trying to succeed with, but with your last post with this part copied: ďTo draw a contrast, if the dough has a much higher hydration, it will be softer and expand more easily. The dough is not subjected to rolling to form a skin. In fact, in some cases, it might not even be possible to use a rolling pin to roll out such dough. When such a skin is dressed and baked, the oven heat does not pass through the skin as readily as the one described above. Rather, the dough behaves more like an insulator.Ē   I have watched and wondered how a frozen or regular preferment dough ball would bake into a pizza, after I have rolled out the skin.  Since I do make breadsticks, pizza pinwheels, pizza buns, and garlic knots, and do now roll those preferment Lehmann dough balls (for others product other than pizza), I have watched when rolling, and it seems even with the long rolling there still many bubbles in the dough after rolling.  I had wanted to do an experiment for many months, on seeing how that rolled out preferment Lehmann dough would work in making a pizza, and see how much the rim would rise and the bottom crust would bake after the roll out.  I never got around to that experiment, but do wonder what would happen.  

Do you have any idea how that crust and rim would turn out?  Using different methods and different formulas still get me confused, in how a pizza will turn out.  I did see Tom Lehmann did post something about this at: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#p41080

Edit:  This is something else I wanted to post about docking and rolling out dough, and also is still a mystery to me.  When I make Greek style pizzas out of the preferment Lehmann dough balls, whether frozen or fresh, I do really roll out those doughs and heavily dock them.  The finished Greek Pizzas always want to rise at the rim or edges, when in a steel pan, even after the dough is prepared in the matter I posted about above.  I think I took pictures of one of those Greek Pizzas last week, but didnít post the pictures.  If you or anyone else wants me to post the pictures of the baked Greek Pizzas, to see how the rim or edges looked, I think I can find them and resize them.


Norma
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 09:07:04 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #196 on: August 04, 2011, 09:45:59 AM »
Norma,

I don't want to take this thread too far off topic but I believe that the only way to understand the physics and chemistry of cracker style doughs is to just make them. This is what I did when I attempted the many pizza styles that are characterized in one respect or another as having cracker-like or crispy qualities or characteristics. These include not only the DKM cracker style and the Tom Lehmann cracker style, but also the clones that I made of the Home Run Inn, Vito & Nick's, DeLorenzo's, Donatos, Monical's, and Round Table pizzas. And these just scratch the surface. There are literally hundreds of places across the country (the Midwest is loaded with them) that have their own versions of cracker style pizzas. I believe that I can explain the physics and chemistry of every one of the abovementioned pizzas that I attempted but the story would be different in each case. There is also the semantics issue that I mentioned earlier that complicates understanding the various cracker style pizzas. You will drive yourself crazy trying to understand the variations of that style just by reading posts on the forum. I'd be happy to discuss any one of the cracker style pizzas but since this forum is intended to address the use of commercial conditioners in pizza doughs, this thread would not be the best place to do so. I might also add that none of the abovementioned pizzas is like the DKM cracker style pizza in terms of the degree of crispiness, especially across pretty much the entire pizza. I think you would perhaps have to go in the direction of a Shakey's or similar cracker style pizza to get close to the DKM cracker style as relates to the degree and uniformity of crust crispiness.

The recipe that buzz used, and that BTB and I adapted, is perhaps best characterized as a thin Chicago cracker-style pizza. As such, and as is typical, it has a lot of oil, far more than just about any other style of pizza. When oil is used in a dough in large quantities, there are certain effects on the gluten and dough that come into play. I attempted to discuss these effects in a post at Reply 75 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg64759/topicseen.html#msg64759. One of the effects on the finished crust is a tender quality of the crust. Another is a certain degree of crispiness. However, you might note that, in my case, to get that degree of crispiness, it took a total bake time of around 22 minutes. That was because the high amount of oil impeded the evaporation of the water in the dough. As a result, even with a pre-bake with nothing on the skin to impede evaporation, it took a lot of time to drive enough of the moisture out of the dough to achieve the desired degree of crust crispiness. To get even more crispiness, I would have had to bake the pizza even longer but at some point I would have had to stop the bake because the bottom crust would have burned (as it was, buzz said that my pizza had a darker bottom crust than his pizzas). But even at that point, the crust would not have the same amount and degree of crispiness as the DKM cracker style pizza. The physics and chemistry would not have allowed it. You will also note that on the matter of crispiness even BTB struggled a bit with the semantics when he described the crust of his first version of buzz's recipe as follows: It was very nicely crispy, but in a light or tender kind of way -- if that makes any sense. To fully understand that description, one would have to make the pizza as BTB described it.

BTW, for an example of a Midwest cracker style dough without any oil, see my clone formulation for the Monical's dough at Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,600.msg53313.html#msg53313. However, you will note the higher hydration value of 52.8%. That would be too high to achieve the degree and uniformity of crispiness of the DKM cracker style. In fact, you will note that I described the finished crust as follows: The crust was crispy on the bottom (a thin veneer of crispness) and both crispy and crunchy at the edges. Yet the center of the crust was chewy and tender. The crispiness persisted even after the pizza had cooled down. The crust was not super thin from a thickness factor standpoint but the crust was not fluffy like, say, a NY style, even using the same thickness factor.

With respect to conducting an experiment using PZ-44, I think that such an experiment should be instructive, even if only to see how the results compare with using the EL-7 product. If you decide to conduct such an experiment, I would try using 2% PZ-44 by flour weight.

Peter

« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 09:52:46 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #197 on: August 04, 2011, 10:56:43 AM »
I have watched and wondered how a frozen or regular preferment dough ball would bake into a pizza, after I have rolled out the skin.  Since I do make breadsticks, pizza pinwheels, pizza buns, and garlic knots, and do now roll those preferment Lehmann dough balls (for others product other than pizza), I have watched when rolling, and it seems even with the long rolling there still many bubbles in the dough after rolling.  I had wanted to do an experiment for many months, on seeing how that rolled out preferment Lehmann dough would work in making a pizza, and see how much the rim would rise and the bottom crust would bake after the roll out.  I never got around to that experiment, but do wonder what would happen.  

Do you have any idea how that crust and rim would turn out?  Using different methods and different formulas still get me confused, in how a pizza will turn out.  I did see Tom Lehmann did post something about this at: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#p41080

Norma,

Back at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html, both Jon (Jackitup) and I attempted DKM style pizzas but where we significantly increased the hydration. The dough formulations, including the thickness factors, were basically the same as the original DKM cracker style dough (the thickness factor was just a bit higher) but for the hydration. It was Jon's idea to do this, so I simply followed his lead. Jon's attempt at the higher hydration DKM "cracker-style" dough is discussed starting at Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50791.html#msg50791 (note that the hydration value in the dough formulation should be 60%, not 36%). My effort along the same lines as Jon's is discussed at Reply 119 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909.

There are a few things that bear mentioning with respect to my high-hydration DKM dough. First, in my case, I was not able to roll out the dough using a rolling pin. Because of the high amount of yeast (1% IDY) and a 26-hour room temperature fermentation (at around 67-70 degrees F), the dough was just too extensible to lend itself to rolling. I would have had to use a cold fermentation to be able to use a rolling pin. Your case with the preferment Lehmann dough is different. Cold fermenting the Lehmann dough should allow you to use a rolling pin to roll out the dough, whether it is through opening up the dough entirely by hand or by using the method that Tom described in the PMQTT post you referenced.

Second, as I oiled the skin in preparation to pre-baking, I could feel the bubbles in the dough, as I noted in the aforementioned Reply 119. I attribute this to a combination of high hydration, high yeast use and the long room-temperature fermentation. In your case, with the preferment Lehmann dough, you apparently have also experienced bubbles in the dough when rolling it out. That is perhaps a sign of a well fermented dough with a good gluten structure and good gas creation and retention.

Third, as I also noted in Reply 119, I got a fairly large rim in the finished pizza. Again, I think that that was the result of the high hydration, high yeast use and the long room-temperature fermentation. You will also note that the skin was pre-baked and later finished on a pizza stone (the skin and final pizza were on a sheet of aluminum foil, as per Jon's instructions). Sometimes I pound the outer edges of a skin to get it to be small and flat but sometimes a larger rim will form anyway, especially if the conditions are present that are conducive to forming a large rim. A high stone temperature, such as you might experience with your deck oven with a high hydration dough, would be one such condition.

Finally, you will note how I described the finished crust characteristics, to wit: Overall, I found the pizza to be delicious. However, it was not particularly cracker-like in the sense of the other pizzas I have reported on in this thread. Rather, it was more a combination of a chewy, crispy and crunchy crust, with a fairly large rim, and with each mouthful seemingly having a different set of crust characteristics. To me, the pizza was like a combination of a NY style and a thin and crispy style. It occurred to me later that I was using an electric oven without a convection feature as used by Jon, so it is possible that I would have to modify some of the steps I used to bake my skin and pizza to get a more cracker-like effect or a greater degree of crispiness. One example that comes to mind is to stretch the dough out even thinner and possibly use a lower oven temperature and longer pre-bake time to pre-bake the skin, especially given the relatively high hydration (60%) of the dough. I donít think it would be necessary to reduce the hydration of the dough. In fact, a high hydration is more conducive to producing a crispier crust. I saw no crust coloration issues. Both the top and bottom of the crust had nice coloration.

As you can see, it isn't always possible to transform a dough intended for one purpose to a pure or more traditional cracker style dough. The formulation has to be a proper one for the cracker style, especially with respect to hydration and thickness factor of the skin.

Peter



 

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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #198 on: August 04, 2011, 11:50:44 AM »
Peter,

Sorry, I didnít mean to take this thread off-topic.  I know this thread is about using different kinds of commercial dough conditioners or enhancers and seeing how those products do affect different doughs. 

I can understand the only way to understand the physics and chemistry of cracker styles doughs, is to try to make them.  I do think I was starting to drive myself batty, by just looking at some of the posts about all the thin styles of pizzas (from the Midwest, and other places) and then trying to think over in my head of how they can be similar, different, or even have some of the same textures, or crust characteristics.  Even when a different members explains how they taste, it can be confusing, to be able to know if that is what I want. 

Thanks for explaining everything to me in detail, and for all the links.

I will stay with the current DKM formula, I have used, but add PZ-44 by 2% of the flour weight. Maybe I will eventually be able to understand more about how to get consistent results when using DKMís recipe.  I am not planning on getting consistent results though.  Maybe my one successful bake was a fluke.

Norma
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Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
« Reply #199 on: August 04, 2011, 12:29:39 PM »
I will stay with the current DKM formula, I have used, but add PZ-44 by 2% of the flour weight. Maybe I will eventually be able to understand more about how to get consistent results when using DKMís recipe.  I am not planning on getting consistent results though.  Maybe my one successful bake was a fluke.

Norma,

You are a natural when it comes to pizza making and think fast on your feet when confronted with challenges, so I have every confidence that you will succeed with the DKM dough. In line with this objective, I would recommend that you select only one size and practice with it without change until you see the overall pattern of things. I know that you are not fond of math but if you follow the steps (Steps 1-4) I outlined in Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148347.html#msg148347, I think you will get the hang of things after a few tries. Eventually, you would hope to be able to get the proper skin thickness without having to weigh the skins and do the calculations, much like a pizza operator learns from repetition how to make dough consistently well using only volume measurements. I personally will always weigh things since that is the only way I know what to expect, and to help explain the results I get, for better or worse. It's all part of my feedback loop that tells me what to change to make things better.

Peter