Author Topic: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????  (Read 7890 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2011, 09:50:08 PM »
Norma,

To date, the only unbleached pastry/all-purpose flours that I have found that are based on soft red winter wheat are the Golden Shield pastry flour from General Mills and the Weisenberger all-purpose flour. I believe their protein contents are fairly close, although as I mentioned before some varieties of soft red winter wheat have a somewhat higher protein content than other varieties. I noted in one of the freshloaf threads that the Weisenberger all-purpose flour is milled from soft red winter wheat grown in Woodford County, KY. When I was researching the types of wheat grown in Kentucky, I recall reading about plantings in many different counties in Kentucky. Maybe I can research the matter again to see which varieties are grown in Woodford County, if that information is available. If it is grown in that county, maybe we can get you some seeds so that you can have a local farmer grow the wheat for you or maybe you can start your own farm and try to raise the wheat so that you can try to reverse engineer and clone the Weisenberger all-purpose flour.

I do not believe that using a bleached all-purpose flour such as the White Lily flour will have a materially negative effect on any clone that you decide to attempt, particularly in the amount that you would be using it (one part in five). For example, cake flours are almost universally bleached, and the purpose of the bleaching, other than providing a whiter color to the flour, is to produce an increased volume.

BTW, I sent an email to White Lily and also to Martha White (also owned by the J.M. Smucker company) and to White Wings, a Texas-based flour sold by C.H. Guenther & Son. It was Guenther that sold the White Lily brand to J.M. Smucker. The above three brands tend to be sold more in the southern part of the country, so I suspect that they all may be milled from soft wheat varieties. If I get responses, I may have more to report.

Peter





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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2011, 11:03:17 PM »
Peter,

I know you always do much research in any project you are involved in.  I also will look to see where any soft red winter wheat might be grown in Woodford County, KY and Hardin counties.  See Hardin county in article below.  

I have seen on the National Grain Millers on the web, that Phil and Mac Weisenberger have been to the White House.  The Weisenberger Mill is also on the National Register of Historic places.
http://pdfhost.focus.nps.gov/docs/NRHP/Text/84001987.pdf

It even says in this article that with the help of his father, Phil, and son Phillip, Weisenberger grinds not only grits, but tons of soft red winter wheat - the kind that's particularly good for biscuits and other breads that Southerners are known for making fresh and serving hot.http://www.courier-journal.com/article/99999999/FEATURES02/61106023/Shopping-Food-Editor-Sarah-Fritschner-s-recommendations I even might be curious that he gets other hard flours and doesn’t really mill them, but adds them to some of his mixes or flours.

pdf. document in Kentucky Agricultural 2004 http://www.e-archives.ky.gov/pubs/Agriculture/agnewsspring2004_001.pdf

Lol, I don’t think I am interested in getting any seeds to have a farmer grow me some wheat, and I am not interested in starting my own farm to raise wheat, so I can try to clone the Weisneberger all-purpose flour.  I can go to extremes sometimes, but not that far.  :-D  Maybe I could buy some of Weisenberger’s wheat berries and do something with them.  

Thanks for telling me you didn’t think using a bleached flour, like White Lily would have a material difference in the final product.  I didn’t know bleaching did produce better volume, but I guess the malting does help.

I will be interested if you get responses from your sent emails.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 06:54:47 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2011, 08:39:41 PM »
Norma,  

If you read the article at http://savoringkentucky.com/wordpress/116weisenberger/, you will see that the Weisenberger Mill gets at least some of its soft red winter wheat from Fayette, County, from the James farm. You can actually see the sticker on a bag of flour at 4:15 of the video at http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/daily-grind-visit-a-small-scale-mill/2zva7og6?cpkey=79c78fa8-198e-db3c-c4a2-eb2648ff8f8d%7C%7C%7C. You can see from the report at http://www.ky.nrcs.usda.gov/news/NoTillJames.html that Mr. James has 50 acres devoted to no-till wheat.

It seems that almost annually tests are conducted in Kentucky to try out new grain varieties as well as some of the existing ones. You can see a recent test report for 2011, as well as the wheat varieties tested, at http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/pr/pr623/pr623.pdf. Based on typical no-till yields noted in that report, Mr. James would not be able to supply enough wheat to the Weisenberger Mill to meet its output of 150 bushels a day of flour milled from the soft red winter wheat.

Since the article on Mr. James did not name a city or town in Fayette County, or a telephone number, I did some more sleuthing, including searching for a list of towns and cities in Fayette County and then doing a directory search on people in Kentucky by the name of Robert James. I screened out several possibilities by city/town name. With a little more work, I think this is the guy: http://www.manta.com/c/mm2s4y3/robert-james. If I am right, according to the newsletter at http://fayetteconservation.com/Newsletter/3rd%20quarter%202007.pdf, Mr. James' farm is on Military Pike in Fayette County, which a Google map shows to be near Lexington. If you decide to call Robert, I think he might tell you which variety of soft red winter wheat he is growing. That way, you can start growing to make an authentic clone of the WPCM.

Peter

Edit: The James farm, called Walnut Lawn Farm, can be see in the piece at http://fayettealliance.com/blog/walnut-lawn-farm/.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 09:04:49 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2011, 09:33:02 PM »
Norma,  

If you read the article at http://savoringkentucky.com/wordpress/116weisenberger/, you will see that the Weisenberger Mill gets at least some of its soft red winter wheat from Fayette, County, from the James farm. You can actually see the sticker on a bag of flour at 4:15 of the video at http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/daily-grind-visit-a-small-scale-mill/2zva7og6?cpkey=79c78fa8-198e-db3c-c4a2-eb2648ff8f8d%7C%7C%7C. You can see from the report at http://www.ky.nrcs.usda.gov/news/NoTillJames.html that Mr. James has 50 acres devoted to no-till wheat.

It seems that almost annually tests are conducted in Kentucky to try out new grain varieties as well as some of the existing ones. You can see a recent test report for 2011, as well as the wheat varieties tested, at http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/pr/pr623/pr623.pdf. Based on typical no-till yields noted in that report, Mr. James would not be able to supply enough wheat to the Weisenberger Mill to meet its output of 150 bushels a day of flour milled from the soft red winter wheat.

Since the article on Mr. James did not name a city or town in Fayette County, or a telephone number, I did some more sleuthing, including searching for a list of towns and cities in Fayette County and then doing a directory search on people in Kentucky by the name of Robert James. I screened out several possibilities by city/town name. With a little more work, I think this is the guy: http://www.manta.com/c/mm2s4y3/robert-james. If I am right, according to the newsletter at http://fayetteconservation.com/Newsletter/3rd%20quarter%202007.pdf, Mr. James' farm is on Military Pike in Fayette County, which a Google map shows to be near Lexington. If you decide to call Robert, I think he might tell you which variety of soft red winter wheat he is growing. That way, you can start growing to make an authentic clone of the WPCM.

Peter

Edit: The James farm, called Walnut Lawn Farm, can be see in the piece at http://fayettealliance.com/blog/walnut-lawn-farm/.

Peter,

I did find the first 3 links you posted in your last post.  I didn’t find the one about annual tests being conducted in Kentucy, to try out new grain varieties, in the different counties. 

With all your sleuthing, you are probably right on who Robert James is and where he has his farm.  I still don’t think I want to call Robert to find out what variety of soft winter wheat he is using or even try to grow my own grain for an authentic WPCM clone.  I am not into all that work.  I still believe from the articles I have read on the web, that Weisenberger’s probably does get grains from somewhere to be able to also make some of the higher protein flours they mill.  In some of the links I have read, it said Weisenberger’s uses almost all the wheat from Kentucky in their flours and mixes.  That still leads me to believe other grains or flours might be used.  How could Weisenberger’s make bread flour or high gluten flour out of just grains from Kentucky, when Kentucky only grows soft red winter wheat?  It still amazes me of all the types of wheat that can be grown.

If someone would want to try and clone the WPCM, and couldn’t get the flour Weisenberger uses for the soft read winter wheat version, (something like White Lily, since it is only sold mainly in the south), which I am not sure, which kind of their own flour Weisenberger’s uses, what kind of other flour could be tried?  Did you come up with some other kind of flour that members would have access to?

Maybe Saturday Coffee changed his mind about trying to clone the WPCM.

Thanks for the edit, Peter.  The Walnut Lawn Farm looks beautiful!

Norma
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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2011, 10:09:27 PM »
Norma,

In my research, I saw no evidence of high-protein, high-gluten wheat varieties being grown in Kentucky. Consequently, I believe that Weisenberger brings in either the grains or the flours from outside to round out their product offerings. I am pretty certain that they are using their own flour products together with the PZ-44 and shortening products from outside vendors to make the WPCM product.

I hope to have more information on retail level flours that might be usable to make a clone WPCM once I hear back from the emails I sent out. FYI, according to the White Lily website, their flour is available in just about every state between PA and Texas but not in either of those states.

Peter

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2011, 10:42:45 PM »
Norma,

In my research, I saw no evidence of high-protein, high-gluten wheat varieties being grown in Kentucky. Consequently, I believe that Weisenberger brings in either the grains or the flours from outside to round out their product offerings. I am pretty certain that they are using their own flour products together with the PZ-44 and shortening products from outside vendors to make the WPCM product.

I hope to have more information on retail level flours that might be usable to make a clone WPCM once I hear back from the emails I sent out. FYI, according to the White Lily website, their flour is available in just about every state between PA and Texas but not in either of those states.

Peter

Peter,

I also researched if any high-protein, high-gluten wheat varieties were being grown in Kentucky and also didn’t find any either.  I agree with you that Weisenberger’s does either bring in grains or flour to round out their product offerings, but I couldn’t find evidence of that anywhere.  I can understand Weisenbeger’s would use their own flours in combination with PZ-44 and the shortening powder from outside vendors to make their WPCM. 

I also searched White Lily’s website and saw I couldn’t purchase their flour, unless I would order it on a website.  I would guess it has to do with making better biscuits, when making them in the south, in that White Lily caters to that part of the country. 

Why couldn’t one of these All-purpose flours in the table,  be used in a WPCM clone, in combination with some kind of bread flour?  Does it really matter, if the All-Purpose flour is made with hard and spring wheat, if the protein is low enough?  I know I really don't understand a lot about flours.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/flour_test.htm

Norma
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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2011, 11:39:23 PM »
Norma,

I just sent off an email to Weisenberger to try to clean up some loose odds and ends concerning their unbleached bread flour. Assuming I hear back from them and from the others to whom I have sent emails, I hope to be able to compose a response to your questions. I'd also like to call Hodgson Mill about their all-purpose flour.

Peter

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2011, 11:55:54 PM »
Norma,

I just sent off an email to Weisenberger to try to clean up some loose odds and ends concerning their unbleached bread flour. Assuming I hear back from them and from the others to whom I have sent emails, I hope to be able to compose a response to your questions. I'd also like to call Hodgson Mill about their all-purpose flour.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for taking the time to send off an email to Weisenberger’s to clear up information.  I also wondered about Martha White all-purpose flour.   http://www.marthawhite.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?catID=289&prodID=625 It is bleached, but seems like some of Martha White’s flours are for biscuits, so I would think they are also lower protein flours, like Weisenberger’s.  I did send an email to them to see if I can find out information about their all-purpose flour.

Thanks for doing all the calling and emailing.

Norma
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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2011, 05:33:35 PM »
I now have more information to report on the different flours mentioned in my earlier posts, including the Weisenberger all-purpose and bread flours, the Martha White all-purpose flour, the White Lily all-purpose flour, and the Hodgson Mill all-purpose flour. The information on the Weisenberger flours came in response to my email, whereas the other information came from telephone calls that I initiated rather than waiting for the responses to my emails. I do not yet have information on the Guenther/Pioneer White Wings all-purpose flour. That company does not have a customer service number at its website, only email exchange capability. I will have to wait for a reply on that flour.

Here is my summary of the flours:

Weisenberger: The Weisenberger all-purpose flour (http://weisenberger.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=23&CFID=10682684&CFTOKEN=47951636) is milled only from local soft red winter wheat and has a protein content of around 8.5%. It is unbleached, unmalted, unbromated and non-enriched. The Weisenberger bread flour (http://weisenberger.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=105&CFID=10682684&CFTOKEN=47951636) is ground from hard spring wheat obtained from outside of Kentucky, in bulk, ground form. Its protein content is around 12%. It, too, is unbleached, unmalted, nonbromated and non-enriched. The only wheat ground at Weisenberger is from local grains. There are a couple of flours that are bleached and enriched, specifically, the flours shown at http://weisenberger.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=24&CFID=10682684&CFTOKEN=47951636 and http://weisenberger.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=25&CFID=10682684&CFTOKEN=47951636.

Martha White: The Martha White all-purpose flour (http://www.marthawhite.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?catID=289&prodID=625) is ground from a blend of soft winter wheat and hard red winter wheat and has a protein content of 10.5%. This is a common blend but it would not be particularly suitable for cloning the WPCM. The flour is bleached and enriched but is not malted or bromated. There is no unbleached version of the Martha White all-purpose flour.

White Lily: As previously noted, the White Lily all-purpose flour (http://www.whitelily.com/Products/Details.aspx?groupID=93&prodID=786) is ground from only soft red winter wheat. It has a protein content of around 8%. It is bleached and enriched but not malted. The flour may be a suitable flour for cloning the WPCM even if it is a bit low in terms of protein content. However, as part of a blend, that may not be a problem. I also do not believe that the enrichment and bleaching features would be a problem either. There is no unbleached version of the White Lily all-purpose flour.

Hodgson Mill: The Hodgson all-purpose flour (http://www.hodgsonmillstore.com/en/Flours-and-Meals/White-Flour-Unbleached/71518-05009-001_Group.aspx) is ground from hard red winter wheat and has a protein content of 10-12%. It is unbleached, unenriched an unbromated. However, I do not view this flour as a candidate for cloning the WPCM.

In due course, maybe after I hear back on the White Wings all-purpose flour, I hope to identify the best candidates for cloning the flour used in the WPCM
and to discuss some possible flour alternatives, such as all-purpose flours as mentioned by Norma.

Peter

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2011, 06:39:34 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for you report on the Weisenberger flours and the other flours.  I am glad you decided to email Weisenberger’s to find out more about their flours. 

Seems like so far there aren’t  many choices of flours if someone wants to try and clone a WPCM.

Norma
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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2011, 03:21:58 PM »
I now have the information on the White Wings all-purpose flour. The delay in getting the information was because emails I was sending to the Guenther & Son website were returned undeliverable. So I found and called the corporate number where I was given the 800 number (1-800-531-6206) and referred to a nice lady who answered all of my questions. Here is the information on the White Wings all-purpose flour:

White Wings:The White Wings all-purpose flour (http://www.walmart.com/ip/White-Wings-All-Purpose-Flour-5-lb/10535222#Nutrition+Facts) is milled from hard red winter wheat, and occasionally blended with another flour, and has a protein content of 11-12%. The flour is bleached and enriched but not malted or bromated. There is no unbleached version. I was told that there is another sister brand, Pioneer, that is also available at the retail level but it appears to be the same flour as the White Wings all-purpose flour.

Clearly, many of the flours that I researched recently would not be appropriate or the best choices to use to clone the WPCM. However, I presented what I found so at least the information can be searchable on the forum by those who might be interested in the flours for other possible applications.

With respect to the question that Norma asked about conflicting Nutrition Facts information that can appear in different websites, the lady I spoke with at Guenther explained that they use third-party software to come up with the Nutrition Facts. She said that that software gets updated regularly and the changes in the software can lead to different results. Basically how the software works is that the user specifies the types of grains used to make the flour (e.g., hard red winter wheat) and a sample amount, maybe like 30 grams. The software then computes the Nutrition Facts for that flour. That may be a bit oversimplified as an explanation but that is basically how the software works. The Nutrition Facts have nothing to do with the quality of the crop or grains or anything like that.

Peter

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2011, 05:50:03 PM »
Norma,

With the research on the abovementioned flours out of the way, here are what I believe to be the closest flour matches to the Weisenberger all-purpose flour and the Weisenberger bread flour:

Closest matches to the Weisenberger all-purpose flour: General Mills Golden Shield pastry flour (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/GOLDEN%20SHIELD%20ENR.pdf). Like the Weisenberger all-purpose flour, the Golden Shield flour is milled from soft red winter wheat (actually a blend), has a protein content of 8.5%, and is unmalted and unbromated. However, it is enriched. The closest match at the retail level is the White Lily all-purpose flour. However, that flour, although ground from soft red winter wheat, is bleached and it has a lower protein content (8%) than the Weisenberger all-purpose flour. It is also enriched but unmalted.

Closest matches to the Weisenberger bread flour: General Mills/Sperry organic bread flour (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/ORGANIC%20BREAD%20UNTR.pdf). The Sperry organic bread flour is ground from a blend of hard wheat, has the same protein content (12%) as the Weisenberger bread flour, and is unbleached, unmalted, unbromated and unenriched. It is organic, however. Another possible match is the General Mills Harvest King (now Better for Bread) flour (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HARVEST%20KING%20ENR%20MT.pdf). That flour, which is available at both the foodservice and retail levels, is ground from a blend of hard wheat, has a protein content of 12%, and is unbleached and unbromated. However, it is malted and enriched.

I should note that the above matches are based on seeing only the Nutrition Facts that are available for the products mentioned. I did not see any Nutrition Facts for the Weisenberger flours at their website nor was I able to find them through Google searches.

I also ran the Weisenberger protein numbers for their all-purpose flour and bread flours through the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, on the assumption that a 4:1 blend of the Weisenberger all-purpose and bread flours is used, as was originally mentioned to me when I first called the Weisenberger Mill. On that basis, the protein content of that blend is 11.3%. One might be tempted to ask why not use an all-purpose flour with that level of protein, or something close to it, like the King Arthur all-purpose flour with a protein content of 11.7%. The problem with that notion is that two different flours, or flour blends, can have the identical protein content but perform differently because of the particular grains used to make the flours, the degree of grind, differences in protein quality and the presence or absence of malting, etc. However, if one does not have access to the flours that I think represent the best matches to the Weisenberger flours, my view is that they should consider using something like the King Arthur all-purpose flour. Or they can use something like the White Lily flour and the Better for Bread flour in the ratios mentioned above.

I think the above analysis amplifies the types of problems that an individual encounters in trying to come up with a clone of the WPCM. For example, if an individual can get past the flour issue, including selection and cost, there are still barriers to overcome. Specifically, products like the PZ-44 and the spray dried shortening powders are needed to come up with an acceptable clone. There are no easy, inexpensive home-type equivalents to those products. Unless one is able to convince the vendors of such products to send them samples for free, they will have to be purchased in the normal quantities and prices for those products. For example, I saw a price of $115 for 50 pounds of PZ-44 and a price of $60 for 28 pounds of a dried shortening powder. Most individuals who do not have access to the WPCM in local markets might be better served to either purchase the WPCM directly from Weisenberger or from amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Weisenberger-Pizza-Crust-6-5-Ounce-Pack/dp/B00473ULA0/?tag=pizzamaking-20). The major drawback from ordering directly from Weisenberger is the high shipping charges. I did a test of a purchase of a 5-pound bag of the WPCM, which is enough to make 12 pizzas and costs only $4.95, but the ground shipping charges to Texas would be $13.56. To save on shipping charges on a per unit basis, I would have to order more 5-pound bags. For example, for 3 bags, the shipping charges are $15.59, for a total of $30.44. That would be enough of the product to make 36 pizzas at a cost of about $0.85 per crust. At Amazon, even with free shipping, the per-unit price is $1.14. My advice is for people to play around with the numbers to get the best per-unit price after shipping.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the Harvest King flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/flour/brand/general-mills-harvest-king

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2011, 08:29:22 AM »
Peter,

You sure did a lot of research on the kind of flours that could be used to try to clone a WPCM. I can now understand since your analysis, how it amplifies the types of problems an individual would encounter if they tried to clone a WPCM.  Even trying to find the right kind of shortening powder Weisenberger’s might use, could also be another problem, even if someone might be successful if obtaining PZ-44 samples.  I saw sugar was listed as the second ingredient in the WPCM.  That sounds like a lot of sugar would be included in the ingredients in the WPCM.  I know when Steve and I tried the WPCM, the crust didn’t taste like a lot of sugar was in the mix.  The pizza crust did taste about like a one day Lehmann dough crust.  I still have the other WPCM SaturdayCoffee sent me to try.  Some week, I will try the other WPCM and only follow the directions on the package and see how the pizza turns out.

Thanks for all your hard work on finding out all the information about the flours that could be used to try and clone a WPCM.   :)

Norma
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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2011, 08:39:07 AM »
I know this won’t help this thread anymore, but I did get an email back this morning from a question I had asked at the Martha White contact page. This is what they replied to my question.

Thank you for contacting Martha White®. We are always pleased to hear from consumers who enjoy our products.
In response to your inquiry, Martha White® All Purpose Flour contains 10.5% gluten content.
Again, thank you for contacting Martha White®. If you should have further questions or need additional information, please visit us at www.marthawhite.com or contact us at 800-663-6317, Monday through Friday, 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.
Sincerely,

Susan
Consumer Relations Representative
Ref # 9471822

Norma
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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2011, 08:45:18 AM »
Norma,

Technically, the Martha White flour contains 10.5% protein, not 10.5% gluten. Confusing protein with gluten is quite common, even among people who perhaps should be more precise.

Peter

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2011, 09:10:39 AM »
You sure did a lot of research on the kind of flours that could be used to try to clone a WPCM. I can now understand since your analysis, how it amplifies the types of problems an individual would encounter if they tried to clone a WPCM.  Even trying to find the right kind of shortening powder Weisenberger’s might use, could also be another problem, even if someone might be successful if obtaining PZ-44 samples.  I saw sugar was listed as the second ingredient in the WPCM.  That sounds like a lot of sugar would be included in the ingredients in the WPCM.  I know when Steve and I tried the WPCM, the crust didn’t taste like a lot of sugar was in the mix.  The pizza crust did taste about like a one day Lehmann dough crust.  I still have the other WPCM SaturdayCoffee sent me to try.  Some week, I will try the other WPCM and only follow the directions on the package and see how the pizza turns out.

Norma,

Yes, it did take a lot of research to put everything together. But that is how you learn. As an example, I would never had thought that someone could use a flour with around 8.5% protein and call it an "all-purpose" flour. In the future, this will make me more careful when I discuss all-purpose flour and protein contents.

With respect to the amount of sugars in the WPCM, in all forms, my best guess at this point is that they represent around 10% of the total formula flour. Unless the formulation includes a far above average amount of the PZ-44, which includes whey with a lactose sugar content of around 74%, I would say that the bulk of the sugar is sucrose, or table sugar. The lactose in the whey has a low sweetness factor, so at least that form of sugar will not add much sweetness on the palate. There may also be some sugar in the shortening powder, which also includes skim milk solids, but since the shortening powder is low on the ingredients list, there may not be much added sugar from that source. One would have to first come up with what looks to be a viable dough formulation for the WPCM and then try to calculate the amounts of sugar from all sources. Since you have been doing so much work with high sugar content doughs in the last month or more, like all the Reinhart doughs and modifications, your tastebuds may have become sensitized to large amounts of sugar to the point where high sugar levels don't jump out at you. As a low-sugar user, I can detect the smallest amounts of sugar in the processed foods I eat. It sometimes drives me crazy when I think that the food processors have loaded up the products with too much sugar, for example, as a substitute for fat or salt or some other ingredient that is under attack at the moment.

Peter

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2011, 10:06:06 AM »
Peter,

I sure don’t do the amount of research you do, and my brain sure can’t understand and can’t do what yours does, but I find research interesting , and I also learn from my research and other members researches.  I wouldn’t have know that an “all-purpose” flour could be as low as 8.5% either.  I know some of my friends have tried “all-purpose” flours in recipes that have worked for them before and then found the “all-purpose” flour, if a different brand is tried, doesn’t work for them.  I now can understand why the same recipes don’t work, when a different flour is used, even if it is "all-purpose".

Your best guess for the calculations for the amount of sugar in the WPCM seems really high, but I can understand since sugar is listed second on the ingredient list, it could be high. I can also understand all ingredients would have to be studied for any amounts of sugar in them. 

I do believe I can detect sugar in anything, but maybe not at the rate your palate can.  I think I am still blessed at my age, that I can taste most things I make at home and know whether, sugar, salt or other ingredients are needed to be added, just by taste testing.  I do make many kinds of my own concoctions at home and just add or subtract ingredients.  Usually they work, but not always.  I really don’t think all my experiments recently with the Reinhart dough or others have desensitized me to sugar.   It also drives me crazy at times, when I look at processed foods or ingredients on processed foods, of all the ingredients that are listed.  I do use some products that have all those ingredients, but do try to cook from scratch most of the time.  I really don’t eat out that much either, because I am not sure what is in those foods. I don’t like a lot of salt in any of my foods, but do add salt to some things.

Thanks for the clarification about the Martha White flour having 10.5 protein, not 10.5 gluten.  I thought about that when I read the respond from Martha White.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2012, 10:51:35 AM »
Commissioner Comer commends Weisenberger Mill for nearly 150 years as a family business.

http://www.kyagr.com/pr/newscenter/Commissioner-Comer-commends-Weisenberger-Mill.htm

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!