Author Topic: This afternoon's bake  (Read 14190 times)

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Offline Matthew

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This afternoon's bake
« on: May 28, 2011, 07:03:40 PM »
I beat the clouds.   :D
The last picture is my favorite way to eat Neapolitan pizza; "Al Libretto"


Online Jackie Tran

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2011, 07:19:32 PM »
Beautiful work Matt.  Looks like you don't have any problems with the top of the rim browning.   ;)  Is this your typical long room temp fermented dough?   How long do you typically bake the pies for? 

Chau

Offline Essen1

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2011, 07:26:35 PM »
Glad to see she's up, running and on fire again!  ;D

Excellent pizze, Bro.
Mike

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Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2011, 07:37:51 PM »
Beautiful work Matt.  Looks like you don't have any problems with the top of the rim browning.   ;)  Is this your typical long room temp fermented dough?   How long do you typically bake the pies for? 

Chau

Thanks Chau. Yes, this was a 30 hour room temp dough.  They went for about a minute; load, wait a few seconds, spin, wait a few seconds, spin, wait a few seconds; out.

Matt

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2011, 07:40:31 PM »
Glad to see she's up, running and on fire again!  ;D

Excellent pizze, Bro.

Ya, feels good.  Thanks bro!

PS: Okay......I won't say it.  They did alot better than the Leafs.  The good news is that now that Boston is in the finals Kaberle will likely sign & the Leafs will get Boston's 1st & 2nd round picks.  God knows they need all the pics they can get.

Matt

Offline JConk007

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2011, 10:15:55 PM »
Sweet !! Pies look wonderful!! What, No pics of those new GI Tools (birthday gift) in action?
Whats our hydration? you use a starter right ? and cake yeast ? Matter of fact give up the whole recipe on the beauties, please...!! Bakin tomorrow here in Jersey  >:D land oh and I am going now to take the dough out of the fridge ! so it will be a 8hrs fridge 24 hr room
Thanks Bud!
John
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 10:19:11 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2011, 06:33:28 AM »
Sweet !! Pies look wonderful!! What, No pics of those new GI Tools (birthday gift) in action?
Whats our hydration? you use a starter right ? and cake yeast ? Matter of fact give up the whole recipe on the beauties, please...!! Bakin tomorrow here in Jersey  >:D land oh and I am going now to take the dough out of the fridge ! so it will be a 8hrs fridge 24 hr room
Thanks Bud!
John

Hey Johnny,
I'm loving the new tools; huge difference, thanks again!
I use Marco's formula & modify it according to the season; the maximum amount of starter that I use is 5% of water weight (no commercial yeast). I use water as my constant & begin with 1650g of flour & if necessary add until get the right consistency.  The hydration is somewhere between 58-60%.  I mix for around 10 minutes in the spiral & then bulk ferment.  

I've been working with a variation of Marco's formula for some time now & finally figured out what Marco meant buy his reference that "pizza is not bread".  What blows me away most about this dough is how it does not increase in volume at all during fermentation in comparison to bread which more than doubles.  The final dough is so full of flavor & a dream to work with.

Last week I wanted to satisfy my curiosity & used the same formula with 100% Caputo Red & again Marco's right; it's completely different.

Matt  
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 06:34:59 AM by Matthew »

Offline thezaman

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2011, 07:24:41 AM »
Neapolitan pizza season is finally here, you oven is up and running. the pizzas look great. is your oven a high dome oven? if so do you have to raise your pizza to finish it?

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2011, 08:06:55 AM »
Neapolitan pizza season is finally here, you oven is up and running. the pizzas look great. is your oven a high dome oven? if so do you have to raise your pizza to finish it?

Hi Larry,
It most certainly is! Thanks.  Yes, if I'm not mistaken it's about 21" in height.  As you can see from the first picture, I use a fireplace grate for my baking fire which works really well.  I always dome my pizze for a quick second, to me it adds that extra something.

Matt
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 08:08:57 AM by Matthew »


Offline JConk007

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2011, 08:20:35 AM »
Thanks Matthew,
I am running in the area of 65% and seems a bit wet maybe I should kick it back ? using like 02% IDY and it takes abput 20 hours but yes It has doubled I will ball and fridge now until around 1 pm then room til the 6 pm party. Hoping for the best? and yes the tools are great I espacially love the 9" perforated turning peel with the 59" handle May use the new oven today  ;D
did I say New oven?

John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline andreguidon

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2011, 08:59:27 AM »
WOW Matt, all of them look GREAT!! the coloration looks perfect!!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2011, 09:07:04 AM »
WOW Matt, all of them look GREAT!! the coloration looks perfect!!

Thanks Andre! It ended up working out well.  I wanted to beat the rain, so I got the oven to temp in just over an hour.

Matt

Offline wheelman

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2011, 09:25:37 AM »
Pizza Season returns, man those look good!  when you fire your oven do you spread the wood around the whole floor or do you always keep the fire on the grate? 
bill

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2011, 09:29:51 AM »
Pizza Season returns, man those look good!  when you fire your oven do you spread the wood around the whole floor or do you always keep the fire on the grate? 
bill

Thanks Bill. I only use the grate for the baking fire.

Matt


Offline ponzu

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2011, 01:27:42 PM »
Absolutely beautiful pies.

I love the melding of the neapolitan charring with the more new york cornicione proportions.

Would you describe the texture of your masterpieces?  judging from the "book" treatment on the last pie I would expect that they are on the soft (ie not crispy) classical neapolitan end of the spectrum.

Your pizza inspires.  Keep up the great work.

Alexi

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2011, 02:18:48 PM »
Alexi,
Thanks very much for the kind words. Texture wise, your bang on; very soft & pliable.

Matt

Offline Essen1

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2011, 02:36:44 PM »
Ya, feels good.  Thanks bro!

PS: Okay......I won't say it.  They did alot better than the Leafs.  The good news is that now that Boston is in the finals Kaberle will likely sign & the Leafs will get Boston's 1st & 2nd round picks.  God knows they need all the pics they can get.

Matt

Just say it, Bro!  ;D

Sharks still didn't go where they wanted to go. Vancouver was the better team. Not to make excuses but if you have four core players (Thornton, Boyle, Clowe & Heatley), among others, playing with dislocated shoulders, a cut-off tip of the pinky, a damaged left MCL and a broken left hand, they wouldn't have won the cup anyway against Boston's big D-men.

Leafs...I said it before and I'll say it again...they'll be a team to watch out for in the next couple of years. Burke knows what he's doing during the restructuring and Wilson, imho, is a good coach albeit his tendency to call out players.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 03:56:38 PM »
I've been working with a variation of Marco's formula for some time now & finally figured out what Marco meant buy his reference that "pizza is not bread".  What blows me away most about this dough is how it does not increase in volume at all during fermentation in comparison to bread which more than doubles.  

Stunningly good looking pies. Real blockbusters!

I'd love to hear you expand more on the two sentences above.

CL
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline chickenparm

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 11:51:41 PM »
Wow,those look so damn tasty! Love the pies!
 :pizza:
-Bill

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2011, 06:31:49 AM »
Stunningly good looking pies. Real blockbusters!

I'd love to hear you expand more on the two sentences above.

CL

Thank you Craig.  The statements are mainly relative to the amount of starter used specific to Neapolitan pizza.  It's a little difficult to explain the how's & why's but since I have progressively decreased the amount of starter used over the years from 5% of total weight to the very low amounts I'm using now & direct vs indirect mixing methods etc, the end product has been totally different.  I can finally say that this is the product that I have been striving for all along.  Now the hard part; consistency.

Matt

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2011, 06:32:24 AM »
Wow,those look so damn tasty! Love the pies!
 :pizza:

Thank you Bill.

Matt

Offline JConk007

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2011, 08:27:41 AM »
Matt,
Thanks for the input, I am also a bit confused on the dough. And I dont want to hijack your thread either. peter feel free to move. I would like to see a pic of your dough before and after if you could next time its worth 1000 words. These shots are from a  6 hrs fridge 10 hrs room and 8 hr fridge and then 2 hr garage.  These are 260-275 G balls but expanded quite a bit after the room rise 65% and .2% IDY ? this dough wet  is not for the newbie as soon as you grab (cut it out ) it from the box completley deflates, but it easy to spread with a good amount of bench flour. pizza was just ok, nice rise in the crumb, but wondering  should I do a starter ? or knock down the hydration to 60%ish? Oh yeah you and Dellavechia inspired me to try the Marinara? A Bit of a mess?  I used a truffle oil on that and people really loved it . I will work on it.
appreciate your  help.
John
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:35:45 AM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Matthew

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2011, 09:04:18 AM »
Matt,
Thanks for the input, I am also a bit confused on the dough. And I dont want to hijack your thread either. peter feel free to move. I would like to see a pic of your dough before and after if you could next time its worth 1000 words. These shots are from a  6 hrs fridge 10 hrs room and 8 hr fridge and then 2 hr garage.  These are 260-275 G balls but expanded quite a bit after the room rise 65% and .2% IDY ? this dough wet  is not for the newbie as soon as you grab (cut it out ) it from the box completley deflates, but it easy to spread with a good amount of bench flour. pizza was just ok, nice rise in the crumb, but wondering  should I do a starter ? or knock down the hydration to 60%ish? Oh yeah you and Dellavechia inspired me to try the Marinara? A Bit of a mess?  I used a truffle oil on that and people really loved it . I will work on it.
appreciate your  help.
John

John,
No problem buddy; Great idea actually.  I'll post pictures right after mixing, after 24hours bulk, right after I form the panetti & the panetti just before use.  I use the same dough ball size as you; you will be really surprised on the difference in look.  My dough balls don't puff up at all during the final proof, they are flat & develop a sheen.  The panetti are extremely easy to stretch with zero resistance.  I'll take a crumb shot as well.  My pizza is very thin & soft & there is hardly any dough at all in the cornicone, it's mostly air.  Hope this helps.  BTW: Marinara is my favorite!

Matt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2011, 10:00:09 AM »
Craig,

Quite often, the debate between bread and pizza ("pizza is not bread", or vice versa) has to do with the extent of gluten development. On one side is the notion that a dough should be developed (usually through intensive mixing) to full gluten development (this is a commercial bread maker approach); on the other side is the notion that the dough should be slightly underkneaded and let biochemical gluten development do the heavy lifting (this is the Lehmann approach). However, in Marco's case, when he said "pizza is not bread", I believe that it was in the context of using a starter for a Neopolitan dough, and where the distinction between bread and pizza is based on the amount of starter used. The first time that Marco discussed this subject was in his third post after joining this forum in February, 2005, at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679/topicseen.html#msg8679. The pertinent portion of that post (which is actually a good post to read for other reasons) is the following:

Having clarified the above, I can now tell you that the main difference in Naples between Pizza dough and Bread dough made both with CRISCETO (WILD YEAST STARTER) is in the amount of CRISCITO used.
In the pizza dough it has to be minimum, in percentage that vary from 1 to 5% of the water's weight, and it is only needed as fermenting agent, assuring a slow and appropriate fermentation.


Marco subsequently elaborated on the "pizza is not bread" theme at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3153.msg26814/topicseen.html#msg26814. What I believe that Marco was getting at in that post is that when one uses a natural leaven ("Crescito") above 5% of the formula water, you are in preferment territory and the attributes attendant a preferment, such as increased acid production, a more pronounced crust flavor, and strengthening of the dough, come into play, taking the dough away from the pizza realm to the bread realm.

Never a shrinking violet, Marco on at least one occasion railed against the pizzas that Anthony Mangieri made, proclaiming Anthony's pizzas not to be authentic Neapolitan pizzas and based on bread versus pizza principles.

With respect to the epiphany that Matt had in terms of the degree of rising of the dough, I had the same epiphany but, in my case, it was a bit over six years ago. At that time, the forum was in its early stages (with around 500 members) and there were very few members experimenting with using natural leavening systems for pizza dough along the lines that Marco discussed and there was a lot of fumbling around in the dark as we were trying to learn (although Bill/SFNM was in the forefront of using the Caputo flour and, I believe, natural leavening). I believe my first attempt at a naturally leavened dough according to Marco's instructions was in Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9012.html#msg9012. In that post, I mentioned that the dough hardly rose at all. I thought that perhaps it was a weak starter that I was using but I had recalled that Marco said not to expect much rise in the dough, as one might experience, for example, with other leavening systems. My next experiment along the same lines was described at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9075.html#msg9075. In that post, I again commented on the lack of rise in the dough. In retrospect, maybe there was some rise but not enough to be perceptible visually. Eventually, other members joined the fray and started producing stellar Neapolitan style, naturally-leavened pizzas and, as they say, the rest is history. One of those members was Peter Taylor, who went on to develop the Raquel dough and, eventually, to start his own restaurant where he uses a naturally leavened dough.

My last experiments with a Marco style dough in the abovereferenced thread were described starting with Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807. I often get requests from members via PM for a dough formulation and instructions for making a Neapolitan-style pizza in a standard, unmodified home oven, and I refer them to Reply 94 for that purpose.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 01:15:26 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: This afternoon's bake
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2011, 12:15:35 PM »
Thanks Matt and Pete.

That's were I thought you were headed with those comments but wanted to be sure and I think it is very important. I've observed the same things. Since working on my Reverse Engineering UPN project (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.0.html) in which the [Ischia] starter is about 25% of the total dough weight, I've steadily moved toward less and less starter (crisceto). After experimenting with the UPN formulation, I was using about 2% by flour weight.

In my convergence thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12371.0.html), I talked about 1.7% [Ischia] starter by flour weight (2.7% water weight). Today, my starter is about 0.75% - 1.0% of the flour weight (1.2-1.5% of the water weight) as seen in the various Mohicans posts.

I think both (high and low starter quantity) have a place and they are very different. My UPN dough is much more sour, and sometimes I prefer that. Other times I want that super-tender crust that just melts in your mouth that I get from the tiny starter quantity and long ferment. I'm also working my dough less and less each time and am excited about those results as well.

CL
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage