Author Topic: JT's WFO pies  (Read 51470 times)

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Offline bakeshack

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #325 on: January 22, 2012, 08:54:28 PM »
Thanks!  I think I prefer the balled early dough for a much easier workflow although I may still revisit the bulk CF in the future.  Do you personally prefer the rims to be on crisp/crunch side for this type of pie?


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #326 on: January 22, 2012, 10:27:13 PM »
Thanks!  I think I prefer the balled early dough for a much easier workflow although I may still revisit the bulk CF in the future.  Do you personally prefer the rims to be on crisp/crunch side for this type of pie?

Marlon, you can also do something in-between the two, like ball it when it increases 25-50% in volume or ball it after 12-24h of CF and see if you like it better.  I do prefer a crisp rim with a soft crumb.  More important to me that the crumb is soft than open though.  I really like a slice that can stand straight out with a light bite, but the bottom often softens as the pie sits.  For this style of pie, I have also tried decreasing the thickness factor, which I didn't like.  

I do like a thin thin slice when I'm making a NY slice style pie, but this is not the same.  Just as the thinness is key for the slice style, the slightly thicker crust and bottom is key for this style.  I think you nailed it though.  Also your crumb looks just like Bianco's crumb when I last visited.

Have a look here at reply #1 and #2

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12980.0

Chau



Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #327 on: January 22, 2012, 10:35:04 PM »
I also forgot to say, that if the bottom is done but the rim is not or you want the rim a bit darker, I will pick up the entire pie with the turning peel and angle the cornice towards the coals for 5-6 seconds, set down and rotate. 

A second method is to dome the upper crust right above the coals, lower, rotate pie, and repeat.  This will crisp up the top crust if the oven heat is unbalanced.

Chau

Offline bakeshack

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #328 on: January 23, 2012, 06:13:26 AM »
Chau, thanks for the tips and compliment!  I agree with you on the thickness factor with the NY slice being much thinner since it is designed to hold just cheese or 1 more ingredient unlike the old school which will allow you to be more creative with toppings. 

So would you consider Bianco's pies leaning more towards the old school NY style?  I have been meaning to go there but just couldn't find the time to go. 

Marlon

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #329 on: January 23, 2012, 10:06:11 AM »
Yeah I would say Biancos is somewhere between NP and old school NY but leaning more towards this old school NY style.   He uses a blend of mostly BF with a bit of HG flour and their bake time is probably between 3-4min.  His rim has less crisp and crunch compared to the old school NY style but his crumb is really tender though.  

If you get a chance, I would recommend checking Bianco's out.  The flavor of the crust isn't the same as using a starter, but the texture is really good.

Chau

Offline bakeshack

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #330 on: January 23, 2012, 02:35:54 PM »
Yes that is my next closest pizzeria target. Maybe Pizzeria Bruno as well in San Diego would be a good stop on the way to Phoenix. 

Btw, the flour I used was the Central Milling's High Mountain flour which I believe is their strongest organic flour. 

Marlon

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #331 on: February 04, 2012, 09:48:15 PM »
Marlon, I forgot to ask you earlier.  In the experiment that you did for me in the above posts.  With the dough that was balled right before baking, do your remember if you had let it rise to double first before balling?  Or did you ball it straight from the fridge with little or no rise and then let it double and baked?

For today's bake, I only made NP style pies which is really unusual for me.  I typically do 2 NP tester pies and the rest NY style of some sort.  Today it was all NP.  I really wanted to try and recapture the crumb qualities of the amazing 3 hour pie I made last week.  



For today I made a similar dough, but fermented at RT for 12 hours.  Batch 1 was caputo with IDY, batch 2 - caputo with CY, batch 3 made with a weak BF and IDY.  

Some interesting results.  1st pie from batch 1.  Crumb was very soft and tender, but crust not as light and airy as the 3 hour pie from last week.   2nd pie looked nothing like a NP crust and more like NY despite same temps and caputo flour.  It was baked later so it was more aerated but had the same crust qualities as that 3 hour pie last week.  considering both pies were balled the same way, the only difference was proofing time.  The 2nd one was baked about 20-30m later.

Pie 1

1st pic is of pie 1 from batch 1.

The rest of the Pictures are of the 2nd crust from batch 1.  Very light and tender.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:24:57 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #332 on: February 04, 2012, 09:54:46 PM »
Pies from batch 2 made with CY, same formula and technique as pies from batch 1 except for the type of yeast.

Clam pie, white sauce - inspired by TxCraig. yummm... These were kinda big clams and didn't cook all the way through for the sub 60 sec bake.  Didn't bother me since I like eating raw oyesters and fish anyhow.


2nd pie is shrimp and garlic.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:36:16 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #333 on: February 04, 2012, 09:58:52 PM »
batch 3  - Sam's club BF, 67% Hydration, 2.5 % salt, IDY.   Baked at hearth temp of 900f for a bit over a minute.  Bottom was done in 40 seconds or so? then rest of pie rimmed against coals to finish the crust.  I was surprise how good these pies were.  The crust really reminded me of the crust I had at pizzeria Bianco.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:18:26 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #334 on: February 04, 2012, 10:04:23 PM »
Pie #2 from batch 3 (BF at high temps).  Interesting how these pies didn't burn more than they did.  This assumption based on other posts I've read about American flours with malted barley burning up at high temps.  I think if there is truth to that, then the higher hydration must have buffered the effect.  These pies were really good.  Although next, time I will bake at 800F instead of 900F and try to extend the bake time to 2 minutes.  

Because of the quick bake time, the bottoms on these pies were really soft and tender soon after plating.  The rim had a nice slight crisp to them.  For NY style pies, I typically like the bottom to have much more crisp though.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:21:33 PM by Jackie Tran »

Online TXCraig1

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #335 on: February 05, 2012, 12:18:07 PM »
Beautiful pies Chau. You got most of my favorites in that batch.

That Margherita is a masterpiece. I'm not sure I've ever seen one that looks better anywhere. The cheese is just beautiful. I love the slight chunkiness of the sauce and the fresh (as in not cooked) look it has - still wet - not overcooked and dried up.  Beautiful gentile leaporting. I'm not sure how that pie could have looked better - maybe if it didn't have that little piece of basil up on the cornice...  :-D

What did the cheese look like before it went on the pie? How did you prepare it? Cut, tear by hand?

CL
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #336 on: February 05, 2012, 04:42:44 PM »
What a really nice thing to say Craig - thank you!  I was really going for the Da Michele look with the cheese.  The cheese is Polly O mozz I made from their curd, frozen, then thawed. 

It was cut into Mc D's french fry sized pieces about 3/4"-1" or so in length and scattered half hazardly across the pie.  The pie also got a good dose of EVOO to help protect the cheese from drying out.  The look was done purposefully.  Although I do like the look of torn mozz on a pie, I just never end up putting enough cheese on the pie for some reason.  I like a lot of cheese.  :P

parallei

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #337 on: February 05, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »
Beautiful pies Chau. :chef:

Offline RobynB

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #338 on: February 05, 2012, 06:08:11 PM »
Those are beautiful!  What size dough balls (grams) and what size finished pizza (inches)?  I'm trying to figure something out with mine...

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #339 on: February 05, 2012, 07:17:35 PM »
Thanks Paul and Robyn.  Robyn, these are 220 gm baked out to 11-12" pies.

Online Tscarborough

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #340 on: February 05, 2012, 07:51:12 PM »
You got it going on.  Nice pies.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #341 on: February 05, 2012, 10:15:41 PM »
Pie #2 from batch 3 (BF at high temps).  Interesting how these pies didn't burn more than they did.  This assumption based on other posts I've read about American flours with malted barley burning up at high temps.  I think if there is truth to that, then the higher hydration must have buffered the effect.  These pies were really good.  Although next, time I will bake at 800F instead of 900F and try to extend the bake time to 2 minutes.  

Because of the quick bake time, the bottoms on these pies were really soft and tender soon after plating.  The rim had a nice slight crisp to them.  For NY style pies, I typically like the bottom to have much more crisp though.

Chau, first off, fantastic looking pizzas. The margherita looks nothing less than amazing.

I agree with you that the HR mitigated the burn on the malted flours. From the upskirt shot, it looks like the char was thinking about starting to get too developed, but never did. It looks full, but not too blackened and bitter from that shot. At 67% HR, you are definitely above what many pizzerias (at least from my limited experience) are utilizing in their high temperature cooking environment.

You mentioned the bottom of the pies were soft and tender after plating. Did they turn gummy at all after that, or remain soft and tender even after cooling a tad more? --K
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #342 on: February 05, 2012, 10:55:29 PM »
That Margherita is a masterpiece.

+1. Easily the best Da Michele clone I have ever seen.

John

Offline chickenparm

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #343 on: February 05, 2012, 10:58:19 PM »
Just WOW,superb,delicious looking pies.Love the crumb and char.
 8)
-Bill

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #344 on: February 05, 2012, 11:07:17 PM »
Thank you Tom, Kel, John, and Bill.  Very much apprecited indeed!  :-[

Kelly, I think I'm probably wrong about the hydration migating the burn.  Although there is probably some small amount of burn controll going on, it reality the bottom of these BF pies are no darker than the caputo pies.  As a matter of fact, if you look at the video of my 3 hour IDY caputo pie which I left on the floor too long at 960F, it burns just the same as another other flour.  2ndly, if you look at the rim of the BF pies and compare them to the rim of the NP pies baked at about the same temp (~900F) hearth with fire overhead, using all the same baking techniques, they are no darker than the NP pies.  They are actually a bit lighter.  So it may be that there actually is NO difference at high temps.  I'll have to do a few more test before I can come to this conclusion.  

It's interesting to note that at the time I took the picture, which is shortly after plating, the BF pies were still stiff unlike the NP pies.   I also noted the difference in strength as I lifted the pies up at the end of the bake during the doming phase.  All pies in this test were 220gm and opened to about the same size.  The BF pies maybe a tad bigger and thinner.  I did not note any gumminess in the BF pies, but actually the opposite.  They were thoroughly cooked as you can see by the thin layer of cheese and the crumb shots.  Even the thick crust was baked though and the texture was surprisingly good, not wet or gummy.  

Chau
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 08:20:05 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #345 on: February 06, 2012, 06:05:20 AM »
Chau,

Great looking pies!  :chef:

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #346 on: February 25, 2012, 10:34:41 PM »
Thank you Norma!  ;D

Been experimenting a little more with NP pizza and getting consistent results now!  Yippee!!   Made 2 batches, one with starter and one with IDY with very very similiar crumb texture.   These doughs were also cold/cool fermented overnight at 50F.  Decent flavor with the starter dough, but the texture of the IDY batch was a hair better.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #347 on: February 25, 2012, 10:38:30 PM »
More pictures...

-Brussel sprouts and anchovy
-shaved pepperoni and jalepenos
-dessert pizza - bananas, cinnamon, brown sugar, EVOO, Nutella, powdered sugar
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 10:41:26 PM by Jackie Tran »

scott123

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #348 on: February 25, 2012, 11:00:45 PM »
At first glance, the first two shots are stunning, but if I really wanted to nitpick ;) , it looks like the cheese is giving off a slightly excessive amount of water.  You don't ever seem to have cheese issues, was there something different about this batch?

Do you prefer the larger rims on the later pies?

Evoo with nutella... I don't know about that  ;D For a chocolate/banana dessert pizza, I'd probably go with butter over evoo.  And are you baking the nutella or putting it on post bake?

The crumb, as usual is flawless.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #349 on: February 25, 2012, 11:14:58 PM »
Good eye Scott.  I recently ran out of my home made Polly-O mozz.   I tried to buy more curd from my local Shamrock distributor but they could only source Polly-O whole milk mozz in water (Fiore Di latte).  I rested the cheese on paper towels for about 45m prior to baking, but it could of had a bit longer rest.  It was on the wet side, but I didn't mind it b/c it contrast my NY style pies quite a bit.   But Im not sure this polly O is the best for NP. I'm sure there are many other better cheeses, but this is what I can get now that taste decent and it's versatile enough to use for several different styles of pizza.

I use to get a really good Bufala that melted well and tasted great for NP, but I can't get it anymore.  I can source Trader Joe's Bufala, but I have to buy it at the minimum the day before and drain it 24 hours in advance other wise it's pretty watery.  

Thickness factor - I use to stretch my NP too thin which I don't like as much.  The 2nd pie is definitely too thick.  I've been playing with different thickness factors to see if and how they affect the crumb.  I have also been playing around with different yeast amounts.  Small amount at RT vs a larger amount and cool/cold fermented to slow it down, but then RT prior to baking.   This batch was the higher yeast amount and I think it was responsible for the bigger than expected lift.  Hint, hint...yeast amount does affect oven spring.  ;)

On the dessert pizza you can see I made the adjustment to the thickness by stretching it a bit more.

Yes next time, butter instead of evoo.  I didn't have it ready and was rushed b/c I didn't want the oven to cool off, so I just went with the evoo.   ;D  It wasn't bad though.  Definitely add the nutella after the pie comes out.  The high heat will obliterate the nutella.  The wife really like this pie.

Thanks Scott, that's the only reason why I posted these pies was to make mention of the crumb.  Now that I know what I like and how to get it, I can work on the proper TF, sauce, cheese issues, and toppings.  After 2 years of experimenting, I am finally getting the type of texture and crust that I like with this style.

Chau
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:59:42 PM by Jackie Tran »


 

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