Author Topic: JT's WFO pies  (Read 39222 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #320 on: January 18, 2012, 02:04:25 AM »
:-D Sure thing.  I will do that.  Should I only cold ferment them after I ball for both scenario?  I am planning to CF for 3 days so they will be ready by Saturday. 

Marlon

Cold ferment for both scenarios.  Batch 1, out for 1 HR at room temps (RT) after mixing, then divide and ball and into fridge.  Batch 2 - gently ball or round the mass after mixing and place in a container.  Leave out for 1 HR  at RT and then into fridge.  Divide and ball batch 2 after it has risen at least 50%.  Try to go for doubled if you can to see the extremes.  You may find that you like one over the other.  I usually just make smallish pies to test, then if I like the tester pie, I'll use up the other dough balls.  If I get a bad result after the first pie, I'll ditch the extra dough ball(s).  Oh, I also used 0.6% IDY for a 60hr+ CF at 40f or so, but you can use whatever yeast amount and temp you feel appropriate.  Looking forward to your results.

Btw, you can also do this with a RT fermented dough.  It's basically a ball early vs late experiment using HG flour though.  Just make sure you treat both doughs the same other than the point of balling.

Chau


Offline bakeshack

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #321 on: January 22, 2012, 04:32:37 AM »
Chau,

So I baked some of the dough balls from Batch 1 (balled after 1 hr bulk ferment) and Batch 2 (balled after 72 hrs bulk) and I got really good results for both.  The dough for the 2 batches were made Tuesday night for a total of 90 hours cold fermentation.  100% HG flour, 68% water, 3% starter, 0.2% Instant yeast, and 2% salt.  I left some of the dough balls in the fridge and will try to have them cold ferment for another 3 or 4 days and see and there will be any difference in flavor and handling, etc.  I removed the dough balls from the fridge 6 hrs before I baked them to give it more time to rise since I figured the dough balls needed some time at RT to get ready.  I did not get much rise from both batches in the fridge although I noticed Batch 2 had more activity when I balled it Friday night. 

The flavor was outstanding, texture was light with some bite from the crust due to the slight crispness I got from the longer bake.  The only significant difference I noticed between the 2 batches was the ease in opening Batch 1 dough balls(balled early) although batch 2 was also very easy to open but Batch 1 was just super extensible yet strong enough not to rip during the stretch.  No issues with sticking to the peel, etc.  Maybe the crumb from Batch 2 was a bit more aerated although I could probably attribute that to the higher fermentation activity in the dough due to the longer bulk fermentation.  I like both methods and I would probably use either one of them depending on the situation and the room in my fridge. 

Total bake time was about 4:30-4:45.  The hearth temp was at 670F with a very small fire on the left side.  I should have preheated the oven earlier so I could have more coals during the bake.  I got a lazy.   :-D  The cornicione could have used a little more browning for my taste but it worked out fine. 

Thanks.

Marlon


 

Offline bakeshack

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #322 on: January 22, 2012, 04:33:40 AM »
more pics:


Offline fcbuilder

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #323 on: January 22, 2012, 02:39:25 PM »
Beautiful looking pizzas !!!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #324 on: January 22, 2012, 04:08:06 PM »
Nice job Marlon.  What type and brand of flour did you use?  Your results makes sense to me.  It does make sense that batch one was easier to open and batch to 2 had a more aerated crumb.   I have balled both early and late with similar results before.  One thing to note about balling late and using HG flour, is that it is okay to do as long as your hydration isn't too low and you don't over do it on the balling, which sounds like you did not.

Again nice job.

For an even better result, try dropping the hydration by 2% and or baking at 600f for 5 min plus.  You get a bit more crisp/crunch to the rims.  Your cornice thickness factor looks great though.  
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 06:22:18 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline bakeshack

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #325 on: January 22, 2012, 08:54:28 PM »
Thanks!  I think I prefer the balled early dough for a much easier workflow although I may still revisit the bulk CF in the future.  Do you personally prefer the rims to be on crisp/crunch side for this type of pie?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #326 on: January 22, 2012, 10:27:13 PM »
Thanks!  I think I prefer the balled early dough for a much easier workflow although I may still revisit the bulk CF in the future.  Do you personally prefer the rims to be on crisp/crunch side for this type of pie?

Marlon, you can also do something in-between the two, like ball it when it increases 25-50% in volume or ball it after 12-24h of CF and see if you like it better.  I do prefer a crisp rim with a soft crumb.  More important to me that the crumb is soft than open though.  I really like a slice that can stand straight out with a light bite, but the bottom often softens as the pie sits.  For this style of pie, I have also tried decreasing the thickness factor, which I didn't like.  

I do like a thin thin slice when I'm making a NY slice style pie, but this is not the same.  Just as the thinness is key for the slice style, the slightly thicker crust and bottom is key for this style.  I think you nailed it though.  Also your crumb looks just like Bianco's crumb when I last visited.

Have a look here at reply #1 and #2

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12980.0

Chau



Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #327 on: January 22, 2012, 10:35:04 PM »
I also forgot to say, that if the bottom is done but the rim is not or you want the rim a bit darker, I will pick up the entire pie with the turning peel and angle the cornice towards the coals for 5-6 seconds, set down and rotate. 

A second method is to dome the upper crust right above the coals, lower, rotate pie, and repeat.  This will crisp up the top crust if the oven heat is unbalanced.

Chau

Offline bakeshack

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #328 on: January 23, 2012, 06:13:26 AM »
Chau, thanks for the tips and compliment!  I agree with you on the thickness factor with the NY slice being much thinner since it is designed to hold just cheese or 1 more ingredient unlike the old school which will allow you to be more creative with toppings. 

So would you consider Bianco's pies leaning more towards the old school NY style?  I have been meaning to go there but just couldn't find the time to go. 

Marlon

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #329 on: January 23, 2012, 10:06:11 AM »
Yeah I would say Biancos is somewhere between NP and old school NY but leaning more towards this old school NY style.   He uses a blend of mostly BF with a bit of HG flour and their bake time is probably between 3-4min.  His rim has less crisp and crunch compared to the old school NY style but his crumb is really tender though.  

If you get a chance, I would recommend checking Bianco's out.  The flavor of the crust isn't the same as using a starter, but the texture is really good.

Chau


Offline bakeshack

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #330 on: January 23, 2012, 02:35:54 PM »
Yes that is my next closest pizzeria target. Maybe Pizzeria Bruno as well in San Diego would be a good stop on the way to Phoenix. 

Btw, the flour I used was the Central Milling's High Mountain flour which I believe is their strongest organic flour. 

Marlon

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #331 on: February 04, 2012, 09:48:15 PM »
Marlon, I forgot to ask you earlier.  In the experiment that you did for me in the above posts.  With the dough that was balled right before baking, do your remember if you had let it rise to double first before balling?  Or did you ball it straight from the fridge with little or no rise and then let it double and baked?

For today's bake, I only made NP style pies which is really unusual for me.  I typically do 2 NP tester pies and the rest NY style of some sort.  Today it was all NP.  I really wanted to try and recapture the crumb qualities of the amazing 3 hour pie I made last week.  



For today I made a similar dough, but fermented at RT for 12 hours.  Batch 1 was caputo with IDY, batch 2 - caputo with CY, batch 3 made with a weak BF and IDY.  

Some interesting results.  1st pie from batch 1.  Crumb was very soft and tender, but crust not as light and airy as the 3 hour pie from last week.   2nd pie looked nothing like a NP crust and more like NY despite same temps and caputo flour.  It was baked later so it was more aerated but had the same crust qualities as that 3 hour pie last week.  considering both pies were balled the same way, the only difference was proofing time.  The 2nd one was baked about 20-30m later.

Pie 1

1st pic is of pie 1 from batch 1.

The rest of the Pictures are of the 2nd crust from batch 1.  Very light and tender.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:24:57 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #332 on: February 04, 2012, 09:54:46 PM »
Pies from batch 2 made with CY, same formula and technique as pies from batch 1 except for the type of yeast.

Clam pie, white sauce - inspired by TxCraig. yummm... These were kinda big clams and didn't cook all the way through for the sub 60 sec bake.  Didn't bother me since I like eating raw oyesters and fish anyhow.


2nd pie is shrimp and garlic.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:36:16 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #333 on: February 04, 2012, 09:58:52 PM »
batch 3  - Sam's club BF, 67% Hydration, 2.5 % salt, IDY.   Baked at hearth temp of 900f for a bit over a minute.  Bottom was done in 40 seconds or so? then rest of pie rimmed against coals to finish the crust.  I was surprise how good these pies were.  The crust really reminded me of the crust I had at pizzeria Bianco.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:18:26 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #334 on: February 04, 2012, 10:04:23 PM »
Pie #2 from batch 3 (BF at high temps).  Interesting how these pies didn't burn more than they did.  This assumption based on other posts I've read about American flours with malted barley burning up at high temps.  I think if there is truth to that, then the higher hydration must have buffered the effect.  These pies were really good.  Although next, time I will bake at 800F instead of 900F and try to extend the bake time to 2 minutes.  

Because of the quick bake time, the bottoms on these pies were really soft and tender soon after plating.  The rim had a nice slight crisp to them.  For NY style pies, I typically like the bottom to have much more crisp though.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:21:33 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #335 on: February 05, 2012, 12:18:07 PM »
Beautiful pies Chau. You got most of my favorites in that batch.

That Margherita is a masterpiece. I'm not sure I've ever seen one that looks better anywhere. The cheese is just beautiful. I love the slight chunkiness of the sauce and the fresh (as in not cooked) look it has - still wet - not overcooked and dried up.  Beautiful gentile leaporting. I'm not sure how that pie could have looked better - maybe if it didn't have that little piece of basil up on the cornice...  :-D

What did the cheese look like before it went on the pie? How did you prepare it? Cut, tear by hand?

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #336 on: February 05, 2012, 04:42:44 PM »
What a really nice thing to say Craig - thank you!  I was really going for the Da Michele look with the cheese.  The cheese is Polly O mozz I made from their curd, frozen, then thawed. 

It was cut into Mc D's french fry sized pieces about 3/4"-1" or so in length and scattered half hazardly across the pie.  The pie also got a good dose of EVOO to help protect the cheese from drying out.  The look was done purposefully.  Although I do like the look of torn mozz on a pie, I just never end up putting enough cheese on the pie for some reason.  I like a lot of cheese.  :P

parallei

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #337 on: February 05, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »
Beautiful pies Chau. :chef:

Offline RobynB

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #338 on: February 05, 2012, 06:08:11 PM »
Those are beautiful!  What size dough balls (grams) and what size finished pizza (inches)?  I'm trying to figure something out with mine...

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: JT's WFO pies
« Reply #339 on: February 05, 2012, 07:17:35 PM »
Thanks Paul and Robyn.  Robyn, these are 220 gm baked out to 11-12" pies.