Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 291518 times)

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Offline derricktung

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2460 on: April 21, 2014, 08:59:07 AM »
Omid,

My cousin (Stephanie, petite Chinese girl) came by Bruno's last week based on my recommendation, and had nothing but compliments about your pies.  Now I can't wait to find an excuse to come visit and try it myself.   
Check out our new venture - Za Pi - www.za314.com


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2461 on: April 21, 2014, 11:05:07 PM »
Omid,

On a side by side comparison, how would rate your natural culture pie versus your fresh yeast pies?

Thanks

Dear theppgcowboy, I equally enjoy both sourdough and commercial yeast pizzas as each has, in my opinion, its own distinctive merits in terms of texture and flavor. The sourdough pizzas I baked in response #2444 (whose dough was fermented at room temperature, no ice box or refrigerator) definitely had certain lactic flavor and aroma that were lacking in my fresh yeast pizzas whose flavor and aroma were more wheaty than the former. As a general rule, depending on the fermentation conditions, the assertive sourdough flavor and aroma can veil the delicate wheaty flavor and aroma. In terms of texture, while my sourdough pizzas had a somewhat gelatinous, not gummy, texture of the crumb, my commercial yeast pizzas did not share that characteristic.

One thing I have tentatively noticed about my pizza doughs is that, my sourdough dough balls (fermented at ambient temperature within 20-22 hours) seem to me to be generally easier to manipulate and stretch into dough discs than my commercial yeast dough balls (fermented at ambient temperature within the same amount of time). Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 11:20:35 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2462 on: April 22, 2014, 10:11:27 PM »
Omid, I have few questions:

1- How much sauce do you put on your pies?

2- Do you dome your pies?

Thanks

Dear Bert, you asked, "How much [tomato] sauce do you put on your pies?"

I acknowledge that the Neapolitan pizza base (or the crust, if you will) is of supreme importance, i.e., it has a pivotal role in the gastronomy of the Neapolitan pizza. Since the pizza base is the foundation of the Neapolitan pizza both physically and qualitatively, then it makes gastronomical sense to apply enough sauce in order to maintain the supremacy of the pizza base. In other words, quantitatively balancing the sauce (or other toppings) toward the pizza base and qualitatively harmonizing the flavors of the sauce (or other toppings) toward—not against—the flavors of the pizza base is the key.

I have noticed over and over that when my tomato sauce is excessively acidic and lacks proper sweetness, it substantially impairs the flavors of my pizza base. Under such conditions, I opt to apply less sauce on my pizzas. Conversely, if I have a finely balanced tomato sauce, then I may apply more sauce than usual if its sweet flavor and aroma can accentuate the subtle sweet flavor of my pizza base.

Several years ago, an Armenian friend of mine, who is a home brewer, instructed me to cleanse my palates with some sweet grape tomatoes before enjoying the subtle flavors of a fine, craft beer. When I did that, I immediately noticed that the tomatoes amplified the flavors of the beer. I believe a fine tomato sauce has such an effect on the subtle flavors of the pizza base. By analogy, tomato sauce is like guitar strings. A good set of strings will bring out the exquisite sound of a finely built acoustic/classical/flamenco guitar. On the other hand, a set of tone-dead strings extinguishes the sound of the guitar, does not matter how well it was built or how good the wood. 

At last, you asked, "Do you dome your pies?"

Only when necessary. Unfortunately, this issue is more complex than I have time to fully explore here per the experiences I have gained so far, so I will be brief. In my opinion, doming a Neapolitan pizza is not an all-inclusive imperative; doming becomes an imperative when the circumstances necessitate it. If my pizza dough and wood-fired oven are in optimal states, then there is usually no need to dome my pizzas. However, sometimes I resort to doming even when both the dough and oven are in optimal states. A case in point is when baking several pizzas simultaneously whereby I need to accelerate baking one of the pizzas in order to quickly divert my attention to the next pizza before it undesirably chars or burns.

At last, I quote, below, my response #2186:

In my assessment, having worked with a Neapolitan oven five days per week for the past 18 months, proper doming (which, in my experience, is not as effortless as it appears, and takes some artistry to master) is solely a distinct strategy or tactical gain in baking, not smoking, pizzas. Doming has several utilities. For instance, doming is often used as a catalyst, that is, to speed up the bake process when necessary. Sometimes, this utility simultaneously serves as a recovery mechanism to let the oven floor regain momentum when needed. In principle, I believe, doming a Neapolitan pizza depends on three principal factors:

1. The state of dough,
2. The thermal state of oven, and
3. How the pizza bakes under the two aforementioned conditions

Beyond the three factors, proper timing, frequency, and altitude of doming are of essence. Also, maintaining a right distance to the fire during doming should be taken into account. In other words, doming needs to be executed with sensitivity and know-how lest one vitiate the delicate gastronomy of the finished products. The ultimate objective is to achieve the gastronomical qualities (for example, soft, non-desiccated base and cornicione) traditionally ascribed to Neapolitan pizza, whether or not one resorts to doming.

Have a great day!

Omid
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:58:14 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2463 on: April 22, 2014, 10:42:53 PM »
Omid,

My cousin (Stephanie, petite Chinese girl) came by Bruno's last week based on my recommendation, and had nothing but compliments about your pies.  Now I can't wait to find an excuse to come visit and try it myself.

Dear Derrick, it was a pleasure to meet Stephanie. If I remember correctly, you are in the process of establishing your own pizzeria in Chicago. Right? If so, what style of pizza will you be offering? Good day!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2464 on: Yesterday at 04:20:16 PM »
Hi Omid

Have you seen this one ? Ciro Salvo e la sua nuova pizzeria 50 Kalò

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTs2xfqO2YA

The oxygenation of the dough in the fork mixer left me speechless.


I believe what you are seeing is the result of fermentation after being bulked in the bowl of the mixer. . . .

John


meripan.com

Yes John, but that's a lot of activity in the bulk before balling.


Yes, it is. And this is out of the ordinary for a slowly fermented dough. Looks more like a same day dough process. That dough could not stay in the bowl too long unless he had a second mixer.

John


Dear friends, here is the dough magician, Ciro Salvo, to answer your questions. The maestro appears in the video, attached hereunder, from time-mark 2:50 onward. The video was aired earlier today on Rai TV in Italy. Good day!

http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/programmi/media/ContentItem-cef61aa8-81d5-4a99-8bab-0f9bb1abbc16-tg3.html#p=

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:22:20 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline gsans

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2465 on: Yesterday at 04:45:14 PM »
Much air into the dough, hydration also important, I think more than 70%... really nice work, I really appreciate what he does.

I tried to do as the master this weekend! (no it's not possible....), with a 72% hydration, 2 pizzas, what do you think about Omid?

More photos here : http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25848.140

Regards
Greg

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2466 on: Yesterday at 05:25:11 PM »
The video is now available on Youtube. Thanks to Squid!

<a href="http://youtu.be/jxTOr1CpEt8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/jxTOr1CpEt8</a>
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:35:33 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2467 on: Yesterday at 05:33:43 PM »
Dear Bert, you asked, "How much [tomato] sauce do you put on your pies?"

I acknowledge that the Neapolitan pizza base (or the crust, if you will) is of supreme importance, i.e., it has a pivotal role in the gastronomy of the Neapolitan pizza. Since the pizza base is the foundation of the Neapolitan pizza both physically and qualitatively, then it makes gastronomical sense to apply enough sauce in order to maintain the supremacy of the pizza base. In other words, quantitatively balancing the sauce (or other toppings) toward the pizza base and qualitatively harmonizing the flavors of the sauce (or other toppings) toward—not against—the flavors of the pizza base is the key.

I have noticed over and over that when my tomato sauce is excessively acidic and lacks proper sweetness, it substantially impairs the flavors of my pizza base. Under such conditions, I opt to apply less sauce on my pizzas. Conversely, if I have a finely balanced tomato sauce, then I may apply more sauce than usual if its sweet flavor and aroma can accentuate the subtle sweet flavor of my pizza base.
   

  Omid, do you ever adjust your tomatoes if you are not happy with their characteristics? Thanks, Larry
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:37:05 PM by thezaman »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2468 on: Yesterday at 07:03:22 PM »
Much air into the dough, hydration also important, I think more than 70%... really nice work, I really appreciate what he does.

I tried to do as the master this weekend! (no it's not possible....), with a 72% hydration, 2 pizzas, what do you think about Omid?

More photos here : http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25848.140

Regards
Greg


Dear Greg, given the limitations that you are facing with your modified gas oven, you have done wonderfully. Well executed! If you were to bake those pizzas in a wood-fired oven, I think they would have elevated to a higher sphere.

Below are some pizzas I baked in my modified home gas oven. My dough hydration was about 70%, fermented at room temperature. Have a great day!

Omid 
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2469 on: Yesterday at 07:05:40 PM »
Omid, do you ever adjust your tomatoes if you are not happy with their characteristics? Thanks, Larry

Dear Larry, what do you mean by "adjust"? Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline gsans

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2470 on: Today at 03:29:19 AM »
Dear Omid,

You're right, my "electric" oven has a small chamber of cooking (large  to 34-35cm). It is not simple to make big pizzas of 33cm. The pizzas on photos make 29-30cm (my plates are 35cm).

realy realy nice pies with your modified home gas oven :)

Regards

Offline fornographer

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2471 on: Today at 05:05:49 AM »
The video is now available on Youtube. Thanks to Squid!



http://youtu.be/jxTOr1CpEt8





So he's bulk fermenting in the mixer.  Significant holes in the bulk fermented dough.  I wonder if the bulk ferment is longer than the balled ferment.  Any idea if he mentioned the length of either fermentation?