Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 479592 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #225 on: July 23, 2011, 10:12:57 PM »
Omid:

One important step in my particular regimen using this mixer: after the main mixing phase, I give the dough a riposo for about 20 minutes and then turn on the Santos for a few more turns around the bowl. The difference in texture after this is notable. Whether it matters down the line in the final product is debatable.

FWIW, I have a batch of Santos dough fermenting to be baked tomorrow to verify whether the Tartine method is superior. I'll post results tomorrow in a separate thread.



 


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #226 on: July 24, 2011, 12:35:20 AM »
Below are the pictures of my first Santos-mixer pizzas (56% Hydration):
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 06:11:13 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #227 on: July 24, 2011, 12:36:21 AM »
Continuation:
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 05:39:53 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #228 on: July 24, 2011, 12:37:24 AM »
Continuation:
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:07:45 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Zeppi

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #229 on: July 24, 2011, 09:36:06 AM »
Geez!!............Beautiful !!....now I'm so hungry for  :pizza:!!



Louis

Offline Zeppi

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #230 on: July 24, 2011, 10:47:33 AM »
Omid, attractive looking pizza.  :-*

Color corrected it....lookatdat milky cheese!





Piece of art!!


Louis
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 10:59:17 AM by Zeppi »

Offline Barry

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #231 on: July 24, 2011, 10:53:42 AM »
Hi Omid,

If you view the Eat Italiano video again, at about 7:20 , you will notice a "fixed paddle" positioned flat against the side of the rotating bowl, and directly in front of the rotating fork. This seems to scrape the dough away from the sides, and into the arms of the rotating fork.

Your Santos mixer appears to be identical to that used at A Mano, excepting for the "fixed paddle" feature.

Your new dough looks great. I suspect your pizzas would be even better if you could cook them is a 900 deg F wood-fired oven!

Kind regards.

Barry in Cape Town

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #232 on: July 24, 2011, 11:58:26 AM »
Geez!!............Beautiful !!....now I'm so hungry for  :pizza:!!

Dear Louis, thank you! Have a great day.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 12:57:19 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #233 on: July 24, 2011, 12:31:32 PM »
Hi Omid,

If you view the Eat Italiano video again, at about 7:20 , you will notice a "fixed paddle" positioned flat against the side of the rotating bowl, and directly in front of the rotating fork. This seems to scrape the dough away from the sides, and into the arms of the rotating fork.

Your new dough looks great. I suspect your pizzas would be even better if you could cook them is a 900 deg F wood-fired oven!

Dear Barry, I thank you very much for pointing out the horizontal and vertical "paddles" fixed inside the mixer bowl. Soon I will have a customized "Piccolo" wood-fueled brick oven by Guiseppe Crisa (Forno Classico). He had already built me one, which I sold and asked him to build me another one with a slightly lower dome, smaller mouth, and slightly larger floor diameter. I can't wait! Have a great day.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 12:56:58 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #234 on: July 24, 2011, 12:37:58 PM »
omid,
those pies look amazing as always. 
did you find any further info on making the Santos run at lower speed? 
bill

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #235 on: July 24, 2011, 12:56:28 PM »
omid,
those pies look amazing as always.  
did you find any further info on making the Santos run at lower speed?  
bill

Dear Bill, I thank you for the compliment! I have already talked to an electrical engineer who thinks it is probably possible to decrease the RPM. He lives about 2 or 3 hours away from here, and I just have to find some time to drive to him. I will post the results here as soon as I find out. Have a great day!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 12:58:42 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #236 on: July 24, 2011, 03:21:09 PM »
PN,
I am interested in the fornoclassico. You say you had one and sold it?They do look really nice and ell constructed Giuseppa is an Italian builder/artisan , and  sells  on ebay? I assume  No big overhead probably allows him to be so competitive. Several posts on these ovens here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14314.0.html and
  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13386.0.html I noticed he posted pics and I asked him about the measurements and he did not reply. Exactly as you have requested the dome looked a little and the opening quite large. My other concern was the clay chimney Pipe, are you changing that or adapting a cover to keep moisture out? Little more room is also nice what size floor? opening and dome hieght are you requesting?
Thanks for sharing.
John
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 03:40:24 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #237 on: July 24, 2011, 06:32:45 PM »
Omid:

One important step in my particular regimen using this mixer: after the main mixing phase, I give the dough a riposo for about 20 minutes and then turn on the Santos for a few more turns around the bowl. The difference in texture after this is notable. Whether it matters down the line in the final product is debatable.

Dear Bill, I thank you for the information. Today, I kept experimenting more with the mixer. The more I use it, the more I like it! My tentative conclusion in regard to operating the mixer handsfree while making a small volume of dough is that one needs to understand her rhythm and accordingly attune the dough—in terms of hydration, temperature, and consistency—to flow with the rhythm, as opposed to working against it. Manual intervention is definitely needed in the outset. However, once the dough is oriented to the mixer's rhythm, then the hands can be retired. I hope this makes sense; it is not easy to explain.

Below is my Youtube link showing how I have tamed my Santos. Have a great night!

« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 06:35:31 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #238 on: July 24, 2011, 06:47:11 PM »
However, once the dough is oriented to the mixer's rhythm, then the hands can be retired. I hope this makes sense; it is not easy to explain.

Perhaps there is a zen-like harmony which includes the rhythm of the mixer, but it has been my experience with smaller batches that "less is more" and that the crust can be a little chewier than I like if I knead it to the "hands-free" stage.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #239 on: July 24, 2011, 08:36:35 PM »
PN,
I am interested in the fornoclassico. You say you had one and sold it?They do look really nice and ell constructed Giuseppa is an Italian builder/artisan , and  sells  on ebay? I assume  No big overhead probably allows him to be so competitive. Several posts on these ovens here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14314.0.html and
  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13386.0.html I noticed he posted pics and I asked him about the measurements and he did not reply. Exactly as you have requested the dome looked a little and the opening quite large. My other concern was the clay chimney Pipe, are you changing that or adapting a cover to keep moisture out? Little more room is also nice what size floor? opening and dome hieght are you requesting?
Thanks for sharing.John

Dear John, Giuseppe Crisa's wood-fired brick ovens are all his own designs. (He has more designs than shown on his website http://www.fornoclassico.com/) Having conversed with him on many occasions and having tried his ovens, he is great at what he does. He has a sound rationale underlying his oven designs and features. Since he has immigrated from Italy to the United States as his new home, which is a different market than the one in Southern Italy, he had to come up with a design to meet the popular demand here in America—without compromising the pizza-baking virtues of his ovens, which is his principal priority. For instance, in respect to the size of the oven opening, many Americans like to simultaneously stick an entire turkey and other food items inside their brick ovens; and, if the oven opening is not wide enough, it can be problematic! Nonetheless, the oven is awesome for backyard pizza napoletana—one of the best of its kind.

His "Piccolo" model is small, yet powerful! I do not know of many wood-fired oven builders that use real specialized bricks inside their mini ovens, probably because, as he once told me, building a mini brick oven is more difficult and requires more labor and time. Giuseppe's philosophy goes against cement ovens, which are utilized in many small-sized ovens in the US.

In regard to the clay chimney pipe, Giuseppe sells full-size cover which protects the entire oven from the elements. In terms of the specifications of my oven to be built, I can not remember the measurements, which I had written down somewhere. However, I was thinking that I should go back to his original design. Since I already have had good results using his original piccolo design, I should probably stick to what I already know works! Good night.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 08:12:19 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #240 on: July 24, 2011, 09:18:08 PM »
Looks like a great Value indeed
good night!
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #241 on: July 24, 2011, 11:44:58 PM »
Tonight's Queen (dough prepared with Santos Mixer at 60% Hydration):
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 11:48:30 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #242 on: July 24, 2011, 11:45:50 PM »
Continuation:
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #243 on: July 25, 2011, 12:07:05 AM »
Omid:

One important step in my particular regimen using this mixer: after the main mixing phase, I give the dough a riposo for about 20 minutes and then turn on the Santos for a few more turns around the bowl. The difference in texture after this is notable.

Dear Bill, you're right on point with the "twenty-minute riposo"! It does make a difference. Next weekend, I will try "autolyse" and "effective hydration". Good night!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #244 on: July 27, 2011, 12:03:20 AM »
Here's another outcome of Santos fork mixer, baked tonight:

Hydration: 65%
Mixing Time: 4 minutes
kneading Time: 9 minutes
Fermentation (lievito madre): 15+4 at controlled room temperature 67° - 77°
Home Gas Oven: 695° F
Bake time: 2 minutes & 46 seconds
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 09:24:43 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #245 on: July 27, 2011, 12:04:04 AM »
Continuation:
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #246 on: July 27, 2011, 12:39:05 AM »
Omid, the crumb looks a bit over developed to me compared to your KA mixed pies.   Was this the case?  How would you compare the eating qualities of these pies to your previous pies.  Aesthetically, the are just as pretty.

Chau

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #247 on: July 27, 2011, 01:03:21 AM »
Omid, the crumb looks a bit over developed to me compared to your KA mixed pies.

Dear Chau, please let me ask you that, what do you mean by "over developed"? I am still in an experimental phase with the Santos mixer. It is very different than any other mixer I have ever had before. I can form better and more tender crust using my Santos (depending on dough volume) than my wife's Kitchen Aid, but not softer than my previous fork mixer. My pivotal problem is the rotation speed of the Santos' fork, which is fast for making Neapolitan dough. While the mixer gives me a lot of control in making dough, it is not forgiving when it comes to the speed of the fork! Also, this is the first time I am using a lievito madre that is indigenous to San Diego. I should have used fresh yeast for the sake of comparison with my previous pizzas made with Santos and using fresh yeast. Good night!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 09:29:00 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #248 on: July 27, 2011, 09:55:41 AM »
Omid - Beautiful pies. I like that you reduced the fermentation time when using the madre to compensate for acidification.

When you mention 4 minutes mixing and 9 minutes kneading, is all that time in the Santos or are you hand kneading for 9 minutes? I do all of my doughs by hand, and if you add up the amount of time my hands are touching the dough, as I do rest/stretch, it might total under a minute. You may well already know this, but you might consider lowering your mix/knead time until you get the Santos speed reduced. Either way, your crumb looks beautifully developed - showing that the Santos produces a stronger gluten structure than your previous postings.

I also have a cultivated local madre, and it produces very good lift with little sourness. How was the sourness level with yours?

John
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:13:17 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #249 on: July 27, 2011, 10:50:50 AM »
Dear Chau, please let me ask you that, what do you mean by "over developed"? I am still in the experimental phase with the Santos mixer. It is very different than any other mixer I have ever had before. I can form better and more tender crust using my Santos than my wife's Kitchen Aid, but not softer than my previous fork mixer. My pivotal problem is the rotation speed of the Santos' fork, which is fast for making Neapolitan dough. While the mixer gives me a lot of control in making dough, it is not forgiving when it comes to the speed of the fork! Also, this is the first time I am using a lievito madre that is indigenous to San Diego. I should have used fresh yeast for the sake of comparison with my previous pizzas made with Santos and using fresh yeast. Good night!

Omid, I meant to say that the crumb looks a bit over mixed because it looks a bit toothy to me.  This is compared to the crumb shot you posted in reply #126.  I often see this in my own pies when I over mix the dough.  This could be a faulty assessment on my part as one crumb shot doesn't necessarily represent the whole pie.  I am very interested in seeing your results when you can do a side by side comparison of the dough and pizza from your Santos vs your KA.

I believe that the difference will be minimal because I believe that your skill level can make up that for any short comings of the KA.

Chau


 

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