Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 368755 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1100 on: January 02, 2012, 05:11:14 PM »
Thank you Omid. Very helpful. I'm always interested in the time-temperature relationships with wild yeasts.

I use the same direct method of dough production.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1101 on: January 02, 2012, 05:43:54 PM »
You are a freak (and I mean that in a good way).

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1102 on: January 02, 2012, 06:11:02 PM »
Omid, out of curiositie's sake, what are the other 5 digital instruments on that wall reading?

It looks like a weather testing station or something.  :)

Thanks. --K
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1103 on: January 02, 2012, 06:25:46 PM »
Omid,

Those pictures are a revelation.  My pies seem to fall in between the two extremes, but I am now convinced the only way I can move in the right direction is more heat.  Can you tell me how long your pre-heat time is to obtain 900+ degrees?  I think I may experiment this week with moving my stone back to the floor of the oven and constructing a dome similar to what you have done. 

Grazie tante,
Salvatore

Dear Salvatore, my pre-heat time, to reach 900° F is about 1 hour and 45 minutes, with the oven door shot. It was a tough challenge to make the oven safely bake pizzas the way it presently does. It took a lot of consideration and trying many different designs until I began to understand the physics of this oven and the impact of using different materials therein.

Please, take heed that reaching 900° F in a home gas oven—that by design was never meant to sustain that kind of heat for a long time—is quite dangerous both internally and externally. "Internally" because some electric and/or mechanical parts inside the oven may not be able to handle that kind of heat. Also, pressure-buildup can cause explosion, which is why industrial gas lines are attached to regulators that shot off the gas when pressure goes beyond a certain point. "Externally" because that kind of temperature can considerably heat up adjacent kitchen walls that may carry water pipes, live electric wires, or insulations that are not fireproofed. The dangers are manifold, and certain oven modifications are no different than playing "Russian roulette"! Please, forgive me for acting like an admonishing parent. Have a great night!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1104 on: January 02, 2012, 07:11:58 PM »
Omid,

I greatly appreciate the disclaimer!  Do not fear... I have a great set of tools! :chef:

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1105 on: January 03, 2012, 05:34:00 PM »
Omid, I've noticed that you vary your bulk to balled fermentation times, although it always seems to be relatively short bulk to long balled. Have you done much experimentation and would you share how you determine your times?

Dear DannyG, I am not sure how to approach this subject or how to verbalize it without being misleading. Let me try this. . . As a general rule, the shorter is the duration of the first bulk fermentation, the slower will be the collective rate of fermentation of the dough balls that are formed after the conclusion of the first bulk fermentation. Since the fermentative micro-organisms within dough multiply exponentially, I assume that the sooner the dough mass is divided into dough balls, statistically the slower will be the collective fermentation rate, which in turn will be productive of less lactic acid (sourness). (I do not know how cogent my preceding rationale is, and please notice I did not account for variables such as the amount of salt, temperature, and etc.) Hence, a first bulk fermentation of short duration seems to set up the stage for a ball fermentation of long duration, that can result (as shown in the picture below) in a soft and delicate crust that is full of flavors—just like Tempranillo grape juice which needs time, a long time, to slowly, but steadily, ferment and reach the state of transformation into Tempranillo wine. It is a process that should not be rushed. Although it is a protracted process, it is commercially viable.

In respect to determining the duration of the first bulk fermentation, I primarily go by feel, which I will attempt to describe, with a bit of anthropomorphization. The quality (i.e., the fluidity, suppleness, and gracefulness) of the dough skin embodying the dough flesh is quite important to me. I want it to graciously yield to my touch without it being hesitant, but with assuring pride and confidence! I do not want the dough taste and smell lactical, other than an allusive gentle whisper bearing the glad tidings. I want equal and uniform distribution and absorption of all moisture by the dough. In other words, I look for a degree of order or homogeneity of dough texture (which is indicative of homogeneity of dough temperature) throughout the dough mass. Hence, the warmer is the ambient temperature, the shorter will probably be the first bulk fermentation. Naturally, experience and experimentation—while letting our senses of sight, smell, touch, and taste be our guides under the faculty of judgment—are great teachers in discerning and learning the subtleties of the "feel". Once they are internalized, one will reflexively identify them without much conscious attention.

You may want to compare the aforementioned description with "point of pasta", as one can interpret the aforementioned description as a prolongation of pasta point. In that sense, what I call "dough cosmogony"—i.e., the way water, flour, salt, and culture are mixed and kneaded as a productive cause of a mass of dough, including the type, quantity, and temperature of the the elements—has primal impact upon determining the duration of the first bulk fermentation. Fundamentally, it is all about imposition of order upon the chaos. The word "cosmogony" itself is a derivative of two ancient Greek words: Kósmos (meaning, "order") and genesis (meaning, "origin" or "productive cause of a thing"). I hope all these make sense.

The second picture below is our corner of the cosmos (the Andromeda galaxy, our galaxy) which was captured by the Hubble telescope some years ago. And, what is absolutely mesmerizing is that when this picture was shot, we—all of us—were in it, toward the lower left! Have a cosmic day!

Respectfully,
Omid
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 03:17:37 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1106 on: January 03, 2012, 06:00:23 PM »
The first marble chamber is situated below the house, on the cold concrete foundation, which is easily accessed through a hatch on my bedroom floor. Basically, it functions as a cellar. The temperature and humidity level inside the chamber is monitored via a wireless transmitter, placed inside the chamber, that transmits the data to a receiver or module inside the kitchen. The first picture below, shot some minutes ago, shows the marble chamber in action. And, the second picture illustrates the temperature inside the chamber. The second chamber is situated inside a room (the coldest spot) in the house. If needed, I can use some ice packs or heating pad to control the temperature inside the chamber. I hope this helps. Have a great day!

Omid,

I don't think you are taking your pizza making seriously enough :-D.

Peter

Offline DannyG

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1107 on: January 03, 2012, 06:11:09 PM »
Omid,
Thank you for you thoughtful reply and I believe I understand most of what was said. A given dough, based on ingredients, assembly, kneading, temperature, etc. will require a given amount of time for proper fermentation. You break that down with a certain amount of time for bulk, based on feel and experience, and a given amount of time in balls. I agree with you that bulk dough will ferment faster than balled and that temperature is a major factor for both. But I am wondering if your results would be any different if you switched your ratio of bulk to ball, allowing for the fact that the bulk will ferment faster. In other words, instead of 1-hr bulk and 24-hrs balled, you did something like 16-hrs bulk and 4-hrs balled. Either way the dough gets the proper amount of fermentation time to reach maturity. I was wondering if you ever tried this.

Maybe the one argument for doing the short bulk, long ball as you do, is the most intensive handling of the dough happens early in fermentation since it is balled only after an hour or two of bulk fermentation. Once balled the dough gets to reach maturity uninterrupted for the majority of its development, giving you that "delicate crust that is full of flavors." So maybe I just answered my own question!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1108 on: January 03, 2012, 06:36:40 PM »
You are a freak (and I mean that in a good way).

Omid, I don't think you are taking your pizza making seriously enough :-D.

Peter

Dear Tscarborough and Peter, I sincerely thank you for the sentiments and their ironical articulation!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1109 on: January 03, 2012, 06:46:59 PM »
Omid,

I am wondering if your procedure has an impact on leapording/charring? 

Salvatore


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1110 on: January 03, 2012, 11:27:07 PM »
Omid, out of curiositie's sake, what are the other 5 digital instruments on that wall reading? It looks like a weather testing station or something.
Thanks. --K

Dear Pizzablogger, all the five electronic gadgets are timers, except the one with the large panel, which is a weather station and temperature monitor for the second marble chamber. I have seen one model which can be hooked up to the internet so you can monitor the temperature, up to 4 rooms or spots inside and outside of your home, from anywhere in the world, as long as there is an internet connection available. Further, it can be programmed to remotly turn on your home AC or heater. I believe it was about $250 or $350 dollars. Have a great night! 
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1111 on: January 04, 2012, 02:55:38 AM »
Omid, I am wondering if your procedure has an impact on leapording/charring?  

Salvatore

Dear Salvatore, with your leave, I would like to explicate the matter in the following manner: In my estimation, the maturation of dough is one—but not the only one, nonetheless a decisive one—factor in the formation of blisters or leopard marks on the cornicione. (Of course, this factor needs to be accompanied by the proper oven temperature.) However, in my experience, this does not mean that a non-mature dough can't be productive of such blisters. It can—but of a different breed of blisters—as long as it is subjected to adequate oven heat after the dough ball itself had been refrigerated and relaxed for sometime outside thereof. I said "different breed" because such blisters appear to be of different texture, shape, size, and color (often softer colors than black, such as light brown to dark brown). I must point out that there are other variants, details of which I do not remember, that I repeatedly and uniformly encountered in my experiments some months ago. I think I may have recorded them in my journal. If so, I will post them here later. Also, I must point out that the degree of hydration seems to play a role as well. In carrying out my experiments, I noticed that the likelihood of occurrence of leopard marks increased as the percentage of hydration increased. At last, I have personally experienced that while a dough can be beautifully marked with blisters in a cheap non-Neapolitan oven, the same dough ironically can be devoid of the same in a true Neapolitan oven! So, the type of oven also seems to matter. Too many variables!

Truly, this phenomenon of leoparding is such a convoluted matter. I wonder if the "chaos theory" applies to this phenomenon. According to the Pinguin Dictionary of Physics:

"[Chaos] is the theory of unpredictable behavior that can arise in systems obeying deterministic [i.e., causal] laws as a result of their sensitivity to variations in the initial conditions or to an excessive number of variables. Although deterministic laws enable the condition of a system to be predicted at any time in the future, to do so often depends on an ability to specify with great precision a set of parameters at an exactly specified moment. An example of chaos theory occurs in long-term weather forecasting. The meteorological laws may be well understood, but obtaining exact parameters to use with them may not be possible. . . . Other fields in which this form of unpredictability occurs include turbulent fluid flow, reaction kinetics in chemistry, and . . . situations in biology. . . ."

Respectfully,
Omid
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 03:30:48 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1112 on: January 04, 2012, 04:50:06 AM »
Last night, I went to Bruno Pizzeria Napoletano, here in San Diego, to let my homemade dough balls have the privilege of being baked inside the pizzeria's awe-inspiring Stefano Ferrara oven. What a terror-striking oven?!! When I stand by the mouth of the oven, as I gaze at the interior while the infernal heat rushes out into my face, I can hear the oven growling at me like a lion!

Peter, the sole pizzaiolo of the pizzeria, was super busy as usual, crafting pizzas for hordes of hungry patrons. Yet he kindly accommodated me. I am grateful to him!

Below are the pictures of the test results, only a priliminary test to evaluate the crust and the cornicione. I wished I had my better camera and Ikea desk lamp to shoot better pictures. Naturally, the lighting there was favorable toward the ambiance, not photography.

For me, the Neapolitan oven makes undebatable difference in the way it invests pizzas with extraordinary texture and flavor. (Dear Craig, I wished I was your neighbor!) Last night, after I came back home, I tested the same dough in my home gas oven. I took some pictures which I will post later, if my wife has not lost the camera's memory card!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 03:33:18 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1113 on: January 04, 2012, 04:50:50 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1115 on: January 04, 2012, 08:38:15 AM »
Omid your pizza looks amazing from the SF oven.  It truely looks like the Queen's crown adorned with jewels.  Will you compare the differences in taste and texture to your home oven baked pies?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1116 on: January 04, 2012, 08:47:11 AM »
For me, the Neapolitan oven makes undebatable difference in the way it invests pizzas with extraordinary texture and flavor. (Dear Craig, I wished I was your neighbor!)

Ditto.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1117 on: January 04, 2012, 09:50:19 AM »
Omid - What an amazing opportunity. What strikes me is the amount of leoparding and the difference in volume of the pie. The center looks much more alive and bubbly, instead of evenly flat as in your home oven doughs. You pizza also shows that fermentation time is relative to the heat source it is being baked in, and how that heat is directed at the pie. A SF oven at full production must be the epitome of heat direction, and your pie shows much more charring/leoparding than normal, an exaggerated result of a very full fermentation time.

It is also mouth watering to look at - it must be a triumph for you.

John

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1118 on: January 04, 2012, 02:04:55 PM »
Omid,

Fantastic!  My jealousy grows... I need to befriend someone with a WFO so I too can have such an incredible experience.  Did your dough live up to your own expectations?

Salvatore

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1119 on: January 04, 2012, 02:33:13 PM »
Omid. Bravo!

Those are pizzas worthy of a Maria Callas aria and then some.

Stunning. You are a master artist.

Here are your pictures color corrected.

Thank you for the beautiful pizzas! --K :)
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