Author Topic: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA  (Read 87189 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #125 on: September 01, 2011, 04:22:07 PM »
I finally did hear back from Pendleton on the Power flour. The fellow who called me is in the Pendleton flour mill in Blackfoot, Idaho. We had a nice conversation on the Power flour.

As it turns out, the absorption figure for the Power flour, 65%, is the rated absorption value for the flour, not the "operational hydration" value that I thought it might be, which could be a few percent higher. The 65% figure is rated with respect to a flour moisture content of 14%, which is the legal requirement. When I asked how the Power flour could have such a high rated absorption value with a protein content of only 13.5%, whereas other high gluten, high protein flours like the All Trumps, KASL, Kyrol, etc., had rated absorption values of around 63% with protein contents in excess of 14%, I was told that Pendleton very carefully selects and manages the wheat varieties used to make the Power flour to achieve the desired absorption value and other characteristics and specs for the Power flour. When I asked where the wheat was grown for the Power flour, he said the Power flour was milled from hard red spring wheat grown in Idaho.

When we discussed the absorption value in greater detail, he said that the 65% figure was a legitimate figure as far as actual hydration was concerned. I asked if one were using a standard Hobart planetary mixer with a 60-quart or 80-quart bowl, would one get any stickiness in the finished dough. He said no, not at all. When I asked if one could use a hydration value of say, 67%, he said that it was perhaps possible but that the typical range of hydrations for the Power flour was 64.5-65.5%.

As the photo of the Pendleton Power flour bag that scott123 posted earlier in this thread indicates, the Power flour also contains some Vitamin C and an enzyme. The enzyme is actually fungal amylase.

So, that's the story on the Power flour.

Peter


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #126 on: September 01, 2011, 04:30:55 PM »
Regardless of what was in the video, both PL locations say that they use IDY and 50# sacks of flour.  The yeast information was provided as to those who might have an allergy to ADY; you are safe as they don't report using that kind.   ;)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 04:32:34 PM by Jet_deck »
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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #127 on: September 01, 2011, 04:34:13 PM »
Peter, thanks for calling Pendelton and posting your findings from the converstation you had with the rep from the company.

So do you know if Pendelton is a brand of flour that home consumers can buy or is it just for people in the restaurant industry.  If you or anyone mentioned it already, my apologies.  I thought I read this thread pretty good but if I missed that, sorry.  Can one buy this brand in smaller bags?  I take it that this is the best flour for pizzas, I think you mentioned that Peter, or someone did.


Thanks,


James

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #128 on: September 01, 2011, 04:40:04 PM »
Peter,

Thanks a bunch for checking in with Pendleton. So 65% it is then. Now I can sleep at night again. ;D


James,

As far as I know, the Power Flour is not available at the retail level.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #129 on: September 01, 2011, 04:45:16 PM »
Any thoughts on my theory are most welcome...

Mike,

If your characterization of the events is correct, and also that the flour is from a 50-pound bag, then the amounts of ingredients shown in the little bowls would have to be bogus because the baker's percents would be very small. Also, if you look at 1:17 in the video, which is after the sugar has been placed in the mixer bowl, you will still see two small bowls on the table, presumably the salt. I think the small bowl in Luigi's hand at 1:08 may be the small bowl with the very small amount of yeast in it.

My estimates of the amounts of yeast and salt will only work for a flour bag size of 30 or 32 pounds, or 25 pounds if we rule that size back in again. Also, a 50-pound bag of flour with a hydration of 65% will yield a total batch size of around 83 pounds. That would fill up a 60-quart mixer bowl and possibly exceed its recommended limit and also come up fairly high in an 80-quart mixer bowl, neither of which appears to be the case from the video.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 04:47:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #130 on: September 01, 2011, 04:50:15 PM »
James,

What Mike says about the Pendleton flour is correct. As previously mentioned, some of the Pendleton flours are sold in Smart&Final and Cash&Carry stores, which a lot of chefs and restauranters use for their businesses, but not in small 5- or 10-pound bags, or anything like that.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #131 on: September 01, 2011, 04:59:40 PM »
Mike,

If your characterization of the events is correct, and also that the flour is from a 50-pound bag, then the amounts of ingredients shown in the little bowls would have to be bogus because the baker's percents would be very small. Also, if you look at 1:17 in the video, which is after the sugar has been placed in the mixer bowl, you will still see two small bowls on the table, presumably the salt. I think the small bowl in Luigi's hand at 1:08 may be the small bowl with the very small amount of yeast in it.

My estimates of the amounts of yeast and salt will only work for a flour bag size of 30 or 32 pounds, or 25 pounds if we rule that size back in again. Also, a 50-pound bag of flour with a hydration of 65% will yield a total batch size of around 83 pounds. That would fill up a 60-quart mixer bowl and possibly exceed its recommended limit and also come up fairly high in an 80-quart mixer bowl, neither of which appears to be the case from the video.

Peter

Peter,

You're right. At 1:17 there are still two bowls with white stuff on the table. What my concern is about the video in general are the sequences. I hope they didn't move little bits around during editing and altered with the workflow of Luigi's method.

What I'm trying to say is that hopefully they kept the flow of action the same way in the video as it really happened. If that's the case then the ingredients should be added like this: Water, Yeast, Sugar, Salt and Flour.

Regarding the size of the bags, look at the table in the background in this pic JD posted...they look like 50lb bags to me.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #132 on: September 01, 2011, 05:11:20 PM »
Regarding the size of the bags, look at the table in the background in this pic JD posted...they look like 50lb bags to me.

Mike,

I noticed that too and commented on it earlier but take a look at what seems to be a smaller bag sitting by its lonesome at 0.43 in the video.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #133 on: September 01, 2011, 05:26:43 PM »
Peter,

It also looks like they have cleaned up that table during the shoot. But that bag does indeed look like a smaller one. All of a sudden it feels a bit as it was all staged for the video compared to what their normal daily routine is.

Using the 25lb bag as a reference to get a formula going is probably the most logical thing to do, if that's what he used in the video.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #134 on: September 01, 2011, 05:32:13 PM »
Using the 25lb bag as a reference to get a formula going is probably the most logical thing to do, if that's what he used in the video.

Mike,

We sort of ruled out the 25-pound bag (as earlier reported), which left us with a 30-pound bag or a 32-pound bag. It sounds like Luigi now uses an unbleached flour but there is nothing in the video to tell us what he used to make the dough in the video. The 30-pound bag of Power flour is bleached. The 32-pound bag is not.

Peter

Offline tdough111

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #135 on: September 01, 2011, 06:15:59 PM »
James and Peter

I went to the closest Smart and Final by Luigi's and they do not carry Pendelton flour. I then went to Restuarant Depot and they carried the Pendelton Power Flour but only in 50# bags. I asked them if they could order me 32# bags and they told me they couldn't. Is it possible that Luigi buys 50# bags and reweighs the flour to fit his mixer? Would that explain the ripped bag by the mixer? 

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #136 on: September 01, 2011, 06:19:01 PM »
James and Peter

I went to the closest Smart and Final by Luigi's and they do not carry Pendelton flour. I then went to Restuarant Depot and they carried the Pendelton Power Flour but only in 50# bags. I asked them if they could order me 32# bags and they told me they couldn't. Is it possible that Luigi buys 50# bags and reweighs the flour to fit his mixer? Would that explain the ripped bag by the mixer? 


I can ask my pizza guy if they would be able to order the PPF in different sizes. Let's see what he'll say.


Peter,

With which size are you going then?
Mike

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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #137 on: September 01, 2011, 06:23:37 PM »
Peter and Mike, thanks for your responses on Pendleton flour.    I sometimes go to Smart & Final near me, I go to one of two stores to shop and I do look at the flour and I never have seen Pendleton but I have seen high gluton flour.  I forgot what brand but they have a high glueton.  Not sure if it has Vitamin C in it or not though.  The bag has the colors of Italy on it so the brand might have an Italian name on it or at least they might imply that it's great for pizza dough.  Not sure though.  I felt like buying a bag but it's much too much for me to store so I have to get Gold Medal - Better For Bread Flour.  They sell those in reasonable sizes for the home consumer market.  I do fine with that flour but I would love some high gluten flour.  I suppose the Better for Bread is higher in gluten than all purpose but not as high, well as high as "high gluten" flour.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #138 on: September 01, 2011, 06:27:24 PM »
Peter and Mike, thanks for your responses on Pendleton flour.    I sometimes go to Smart & Final near me, I go to one of two stores to shop and I do look at the flour and I never have seen Pendleton but I have seen high gluton flour.  I forgot what brand but they have a high glueton.  Not sure if it has Vitamin C in it or not though.  The bag has the colors of Italy on it so the brand might have an Italian name on it or at least they might imply that it's great for pizza dough.  Not sure though.  I felt like buying a bag but it's much too much for me to store so I have to get Gold Medal - Better For Bread Flour.  They sell those in reasonable sizes for the home consumer market.  I do fine with that flour but I would love some high gluten flour.  I suppose the Better for Bread is higher in gluten than all purpose but not as high, well as high as "high gluten" flour.

James,

It's probably this one:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9483.msg82058.html#msg82058
Mike

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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #139 on: September 01, 2011, 06:32:48 PM »
Mike, exactly that's the one.  I forgot the name but when I clicked on your link I immediately recognized it.  I'd not mind using that flour if it was not in a big bag like that.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #140 on: September 01, 2011, 06:37:21 PM »
Peter,

With which size are you going then?

Mike,

I am thinking of coming up with examples using 30 pounds of flour and 32 pounds of flour. If our members deem those versions to be credible, or only one of them, then I, or the members themeselves, can use a thickness value of 0.07074 in the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with versions for different pizza sizes, such as 12", 14" and 16", since most people with standard home ovens may not be able to handle the 18" size. Or they may be able to use a combination of screen and pizza stone.

Of course, I invite Norma's comments, or anyone else's for that matter, before proceeding in case either of us missed something.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #141 on: September 01, 2011, 06:58:07 PM »
Mike,

I am thinking of coming up with examples using 30 pounds of flour and 32 pounds of flour. If our members deem those versions to be credible, or only one of them, then I, or the members themeselves, can use a thickness value of 0.07074 in the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with versions for different pizza sizes, such as 12", 14" and 16", since most people with standard home ovens may not be able to handle the 18" size. Or they may be able to use a combination of screen and pizza stone.

Of course, I invite Norma's comments, or anyone else's for that matter, before proceeding in case either of us missed something.

Peter


Peter,

Very cool. Anxious to see what you will come up with.

I just got back from talking to my pizza guy. I asked him what size of PPF bags he can get his hands on and he said only the 25 & 50lb bags. He said I could also try the Mondako flour, which comes in 32 & 50  lb bags but is bleached.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #142 on: September 01, 2011, 07:21:44 PM »
Very cool. Anxious to see what you will come up with.

I just got back from talking to my pizza guy. I asked him what size of PPF bags he can get his hands on and he said only the 25 & 50lb bags. He said I could also try the Mondako flour, which comes in 32 & 50  lb bags but is bleached.

Mike,

While I am at it, I can also come up with a version based on using a 25-pound bag of flour.

I also discussed the Mondako flour with the fellow I spoke with at Pendleton Mills in Idaho. I specifically asked him whether the wheat to make the Mondako flour came from Montana or the Dakotas since the Mondako name was a combination of Mon (for Montana) and Dako (for Dakota). He said that I had the combination right but that they no longer used flours from both of those states. The name was acquired from Fisher Mills, which Pendleton had acquired some time ago. As the Pendleton website notes at http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-flour-products-2.php, the Mondako flour is now a blend of "Northern winter and spring wheat". There is also a Mondako Special flour that is unbleached that seems to have the same specs as the Mondako flour, but it may not be as readily available as the Mondako flour. The Pendleton flours are sold through distributors and foodservice companies.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #143 on: September 01, 2011, 07:41:21 PM »
Peter,

My guy also mentioned a Mondako Pizza blend but didn't really elaborate on that one. I guess it's one of those blends where you just have to add water and you're done.

Once I get the 50lbs PPF I'll post some pics if the bag should contain any info not discussed here or that we don't already know about.

Stick with your original plan for the 30 & 32 lb formula. I can scale it down to my needs later on. No need to put in the extra work although I appreciate the offer!
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #144 on: September 01, 2011, 07:49:28 PM »
Is it possible that Luigi buys 50# bags and reweighs the flour to fit his mixer? Would that explain the ripped bag by the mixer? 

Travis,

I scoured the Luigi video looking for a commercial scale capable of weighing 50-pound bags of flour but did not see any scale like that. If some of the flour from a 50-pound bag had been removed, leaving say, 25-32 pounds of flour, and then had the top of the bag ripped off, then I don't think you would have seen the stylized "Pe" on the flour bag in the red oval as shown in the video at 1:34. To see the logo, I think the flour bag would have had to be 25 pounds, 30 pounds or 32 pounds. As I mentioned earlier, in January of this year, Pendleton came up with a new name and look for the company and products (see http://www.pfmills.com/a-new-pendleton-flour-mills-news-4.php). That is why the current Pendleton flour bags look different than the one shown in the video.

I think what happened at Luigi's is that the DDD FoodNetwork segment on Pizzeria Luigi increased Luigi's business to the point where he perhaps had no choice but to go with 50-pound bags of flour so that he wouldn't have to make as many batches of dough. It would also have made sense to swith to IDY since it is easier to use than ADY. I don't think that such a change was because of allergic reactions. If Luigi didn't have a mixer with an 80-quart bowl capacity, then he had to go with such a mixer to be able to easily and conveniently handle 50-pound bags of flour. For my reverse engineering efforts, I had no choice but to go with the stuff shown in the video. However, that doesn't mean that any workable numbers that I might be able to come up with can't be translated to an application based on 50 pounds of flour. Of course, if Luigi changed other things, then that changes the ballgame and is not something that I can deal with.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #145 on: September 01, 2011, 07:55:59 PM »
My guy also mentioned a Mondako Pizza blend but didn't really elaborate on that one. I guess it's one of those blends where you just have to add water and you're done.

Mike,

I didn't discuss the pizza flour blends with the fellow at Pendleton's because I wanted to be sure I exhausted everything on the Power flour, which is the focus of our efforts to try to reverse engineer what Luigi did in the video . However, I have long been aware of the Pendleton pizza flour blends because of their great popularity among pizza operators on the west coast. You are correct that they require only the addition of water, as the Pendleton website notes at http://www.pfmills.com/complete-pizza-mixes-pages-5.php.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #146 on: September 01, 2011, 10:21:22 PM »
Mike,

I didn't discuss the pizza flour blends with the fellow at Pendleton's because I wanted to be sure I exhausted everything on the Power flour, which is the focus of our efforts to try to reverse engineer what Luigi did in the video . However, I have long been aware of the Pendleton pizza flour blends because of their great popularity among pizza operators on the west coast. You are correct that they require only the addition of water, as the Pendleton website notes at http://www.pfmills.com/complete-pizza-mixes-pages-5.php.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't try to confuse anyone or move the attention away from the Power flour, I just threw the Mondako reference in there because my pizza guy mentioned it.  :)

Anyway, on my way home I thought about those little bowls of salt, sugar and yeast and realized that I have similar bowls of almost the same size. So I went and did a comparison of the bowls, Luigi's and mine. I poured an amount of sea salt in one of them and tried to get as close to the amount shown in Luigi's video. Then I weight the amount an it was 300gr. Since I think my bowls are a tad deeper, my guesstimate is that the amount of salt hovers around 300 - 350gr. (10.6oz - 12.3oz) If Luigi really used two of those bowls of salt, as you suspect, then that would obviously double that amount but I'm can't be sure.

Another thing is the way the video was edited. as I mentioned before, i have my doubt that the workflow is shown as it really happens normally. I think I got proof of that now from the frames I was able to capture with the GOM Player I use. I slowed the video down to almost super slo-mo, the voices were all garbled and both guys sounded like robots from a bad 1950's science fiction flick but I got two frames that actually show that the the video was edited not in the way the real mixing regimen happens, I believe. It's evident when you look at the bowls on that small table and watch the video at normal speed. The bowl behind Fieri's hand is the one that contained the yeast and looks empty, the one in front must have been the one that held the sugar(?) and it's empty but then, all of a sudden, one of them is full again with either sugar or salt.

Curious as to what you think.

Pics below show first the bowl comparison and the other the Off-workflow frames...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 10:25:09 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #147 on: September 01, 2011, 10:28:46 PM »

Of course, I invite Norma's comments, or anyone else's for that matter, before proceeding in case either of us missed something.

Peter


Peter,

I have been trying to follow this thread today, but my mother is having problems, and also I am trying to get ready for the weekend thing at market.  It has been a hectic day.  I find all the posts interesting, as much as I could follow them.

I donít think you or other members missed anything.  I just wonder really what those bags of flour weigh that are under the table beside the oven.  I canít tell by just looking at the table, but know my table that I use to opened my dough balls has 50 lb. bags of flour stored on a shelf something like Luigiís flour is stored.  I donít think it would be any help, but I could measure my table that is at market tomorrow, to see what length my table is that stores my 50 lb. bags of flour.  I would think those bags are 50 lbs., but canít be sure, because I donít know the width of Luigiís oven.  I did measure my mixing bowl at market for my 20 qt. mixer and had planned to see how much flour it could hold, but forgot where I put the measurements, and also forgot to see how much flour my 20 qt. mixer can hold.

Will be interested in seeing what kind of formulas you set-forth.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #148 on: September 01, 2011, 10:35:41 PM »
Just did some quick calculations.

Let's say Luigi used the 32lb bag of Power flour that would amount to 14515 grams. If he uses two bowls of salt as Peter suggested, and my guesstimate is somewhat correct regarding the bowl sizes, it would come to perhaps 700 grams maximum and would equate to 4.8% of salt. If he uses, let's say 350 grams of salt, it would equate to 2.4% which seems in line with most formulations I have seen for a NY-style pie.

This reverse-engineering project is exciting!  ;D
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #149 on: September 01, 2011, 10:38:18 PM »
Peter,

I have been trying to follow this thread today, but my mother is having problems, and also I am trying to get ready for the weekend thing at market.  It has been a hectic day.  I find all the posts interesting, as much as I could follow them.

I donít think you or other members missed anything.  I just wonder really what those bags of flour weigh that are under the table beside the oven.  I canít tell by just looking at the table, but know my table that I use to opened my dough balls has 50 lb. bags of flour stored on a shelf something like Luigiís flour is stored.  I donít think it would be any help, but I could measure my table that is at market tomorrow, to see what length my table is that stores my 50 lb. bags of flour.  I would think those bags are 50 lbs., but canít be sure, because I donít know the width of Luigiís oven.  I did measure my mixing bowl at market for my 20 qt. mixer and had planned to see how much flour it could hold, but forgot where I put the measurements, and also forgot to see how much flour my 20 qt. mixer can hold.

Will be interested in seeing what kind of formulas you set-forth.

Norma

Norma,

I'll be getting a 50lb bag of flour on Saturday. If you can measure your table, I'll give you the corresponding measurements of the 50lb bag and we'll find out if those are actually 50 lbs bags we're seeing in the video.

Mike

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