Author Topic: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA  (Read 68358 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2011, 05:21:11 PM »
Norma.

Once you enter the thickness factor and the pizza size, the expanded dough calculating tool will calculate a value of 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.0707 = 17.99 no matter what other values you enter into the tool ;D.

I have been waiting for a call back from a technical person at Pendelton to be able to nail down the hydration issue better although I noted that you reported good results using 65% with your Jet's clone dough using a flour with a protein content of only 12.4% (Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg151463.html#msg1514630). I would think that the 65% hydration will work better with the Power flour at 13.5% protein. I ran the parts of the Jet's video and the Luigi video where the dough is formed into dough balls side by side (using my desktop and my iPad simultaneously) and to me the dough condition and handling looked the same.

Peter

Peter,

Speaking of Pendelton's Power Flour, I will receive a 50lb bag, unbleached & enriched, from my local pizza guy around the corner along with two 6lb logs of F & A whole milk, low-moisture mozzarella on Saturday. All for about $40.

He deems the PPF one of the best flours in the business/industry and the F & A cheese a close cousin of Grande Mozzarella. He says Grande's the best but F & A's Mozza is a great runner-up.

Looks like I'll be making some pies over the Labor Day weekend.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 06:25:42 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Online norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #121 on: August 31, 2011, 05:32:51 PM »
Norma.

Once you enter the thickness factor and the pizza size, the expanded dough calculating tool will calculate a value of 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.0707 = 17.99 no matter what other values you enter into the tool ;D.

I have been waiting for a call back from a technical person at Pendelton to be able to nail down the hydration issue better although I noted that you reported good results using 65% with your Jet's clone dough using a flour with a protein content of only 12.4% (Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg151463.html#msg1514630). I would think that the 65% hydration will work better with the Power flour at 13.5% protein. I ran the parts of the Jet's video and the Luigi video where the dough is formed into dough balls side by side (using my desktop and my iPad simultaneously) and to me the dough condition and handling looked the same.

Peter

Peter,

I guess I still don't understand those dough calculating tools, even though I can use them.   :-D  Maybe one of these days I will understand everything, but don't bet on it.

Will be interesting to know what you hear back for the technical person at Pendleton.  The dough did look something like the Jet's dough I made.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #122 on: September 01, 2011, 02:06:29 PM »
Norma and Mike,

I went through a good part of the Luigi video second by second to reconstruct how the dough is made, up to the point of forming into dough balls. What I looked for was how the items on the stand next to the mixer went into the mixer bowl to make the dough. Those items include the water, the yeast (believed to be ADY) and the salt. Sugar went into the mixer bowl but I did not see a small bowl on the table with the sugar. The flour was in a bag that was positioned between the table and the mixer. Initially, I thought that the mixer was a Hobart P-660 mixer (see http://www.bakeryequipment.com/genUpload/60qt%20Pizza%20Mixer%20p660%20spec%20sheet.pdf) but I discovered today that a Hobart L-800 (see http://www.nnysupply.com/mixers/l800.pdf), which also looks like the Hobart P-660 (but with a lower H.P. rating) is the same height (55 7/8) as the Hobart P-660. One difference is that the L-800 has an 80-quart bowl and the P-660 has a 60-quart bowl. As noted below, judging from the height of the dough in the bowl after kneading, it strikes me that it is quite possible that Luigi was using the L-800. That means that if Luigi now uses 50-pound bags of flour, he might already have the right mixer to handle that amount of flour.

To see how I got to where I am in my thinking, consider the following chronology and sequencing of events:

1:07 There is a partly filled small bowl of yeast (believed to be ADY), maybe a tablespoon or so, and another nearly full small bowl of yeast (obscured by the water container) on the table to the left of the mixer.

1:08 The water from the water container is in the mixer bowl. The yeast is stirred into the water in the mixer bowl. The amount of yeast in the mixer bowl is clearly more than just the small amount of yeast in one of the small bowls, suggesting that both of the small bowls contain the total yeast.

1:14 Sugar is added to the water in the mixer bowl. There is no indication that Luigi took a container (small bowl) of sugar from the table and emptied it into the mixer bowl. It could have come from a source not shown in the video. Luigi simply says that he adds a little sugar to help activate the yeast. It does not sound like Luigi is treating the sugar as a major component of the dough although, of course, it does end up in the dough.

1:17 There are two small bowls of salt on the table. The salt from the two small bowls is emptied into the mixer bowl (note that Luigi holds one empty bowl while the second bowl is on the table).

1:26 A bag of flour (Power flour) with a ripped top is shown between the table and the mixer. At the time of the video, it was not known whether the bag of flour weighed 25 pounds, 30 pounds or 32 pounds (the bag between the table and the mixer does not look to be a 50-pound bag), or whether the flour was bleached or unbleached. At a hydration value of 65% (my best estimate), the amount of dough for each bag size would be about 42 pounds, 50 pounds or 53 pounds, respectively. If the flour is an unbleached flour, that leaves a dough batch weight of 42 pounds or 53 pounds (the 30-pound bag is bleached flour). I recently came to believe that the flour bag was not a 25-pound flour bag. (Reply 93 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151230.html#msg151230). However, I do not see anything in the video to suggest that the bag of flour used to make the dough is 30 pounds (bleached) or 32 pounds (unbleached). I do not see this as a big issue. If the amounts of water, yeast, salt and sugar shown in the video can be ascertained, one can come up with a dough formulation based on using 30 pounds of flour or 32 pounds of flour.

1:34 The flour is added to the mixer bowl. Apparently the entire contents of the flour bag goes into the mixer bowl since the Pendleton script letters in the red oval printed on the bag can be seen below the ripped part of the bag. That means that, say, a 50-pound bag, was not partially emptied and the top part of the bag torn away.

1:42 The flour bag--presumably empty--is gone.

1:49 The dough in the mixer bowl (42 pounds or 53 pounds) appears to be at a level at about the mid-point of the mixer bowl or maybe a bit above. That level arguably is more commensurate with an 80-quart bowl than a 60-quart bowl. According to the pdf specs given above, the dimensions for a Hobart 60-quart mixer bowl are 16 5/8 high with a diameter of 19 3/16. For an 80-quart Hobart mixer bowl, the dimensions are 18 high with a diameter of 21 11/16. Maybe someone can venture which size is shown in the video. Clear views of the bowl can be seen starting at 1:48 in the video.

2:06 The prepared dough batch is divided and formed into round dough balls. As previously noted, I believe the hydration of the dough to be around 65%.

Id be happy to entertain any thoughts or comments. I have done some weighings of yeast, salt and sugar based on the above analysis, using a container of the same general size and shape of the small bowls shown in the video, and once I am satisfied on the hydration issue with the Pendleton Power flour, Id be happy to post some possible dough formulations for interested members to test out with the Power flour. Even if my weighings are accurate or at least close enough for our purposes, that is no guarantee of getting the desired results, especially if the video is not correct or is misleading.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #123 on: September 01, 2011, 03:32:14 PM »
Peter,

I just looked at the video again, specifically the bag of flour. Yesterday, at my local pizza joint here, he showed me the 50lb bag of PPF and it looks to be the same size although the font and logo is different.

Also, I noticed that the mixer sits on top of a slab of concrete and is bolted on. Now, since the mixer is a bit elevated and given the camera angle, it might may make the bag of flour look smaller than it actually is.

I might be wrong, given the fact that the printing, logo and font is different on Luigi's bag compared to the one I saw yesterday.

The other pics show the bowls with the salt, yeast and sugar. You can see Luigi holding the bowl what I believe to be the yeast right before it goes into the water. In the other pic you can see him reaching for a second bowl of presumably salt, with two other ones being empty already, most likely the sugar and yeast ones. I think he may not use two bowl of salt. I think they may be one sugar and one salt.

One thing that doesn't sound right is when Luigi talks about the amount of sugar. he says "That's why I add a little sugar..." but when you look at the pic, that amount looks more than just "a little". I guess it's safe to say that his formula does, in fact, include a fair amount of the sweet stuff.

Any thoughts on my theory are most welcome...
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #124 on: September 01, 2011, 03:48:47 PM »
Peter,

I forgot to mention that your estimate of 65% hydration is probably spot on. I went through my NY-style project thread and noticed that when I worked with the All Trumps flour (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=ESpring#50111) in February I used a hydration of 66% and the dough was not sticky or too wet at all. It was actually very easy to work with.

Reply 550: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg125704.html#msg125704

So, if the PPF performs in the same way, albeit not being bromated, the 65% hydration should be correct.
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #125 on: September 01, 2011, 04:22:07 PM »
I finally did hear back from Pendleton on the Power flour. The fellow who called me is in the Pendleton flour mill in Blackfoot, Idaho. We had a nice conversation on the Power flour.

As it turns out, the absorption figure for the Power flour, 65%, is the rated absorption value for the flour, not the "operational hydration" value that I thought it might be, which could be a few percent higher. The 65% figure is rated with respect to a flour moisture content of 14%, which is the legal requirement. When I asked how the Power flour could have such a high rated absorption value with a protein content of only 13.5%, whereas other high gluten, high protein flours like the All Trumps, KASL, Kyrol, etc., had rated absorption values of around 63% with protein contents in excess of 14%, I was told that Pendleton very carefully selects and manages the wheat varieties used to make the Power flour to achieve the desired absorption value and other characteristics and specs for the Power flour. When I asked where the wheat was grown for the Power flour, he said the Power flour was milled from hard red spring wheat grown in Idaho.

When we discussed the absorption value in greater detail, he said that the 65% figure was a legitimate figure as far as actual hydration was concerned. I asked if one were using a standard Hobart planetary mixer with a 60-quart or 80-quart bowl, would one get any stickiness in the finished dough. He said no, not at all. When I asked if one could use a hydration value of say, 67%, he said that it was perhaps possible but that the typical range of hydrations for the Power flour was 64.5-65.5%.

As the photo of the Pendleton Power flour bag that scott123 posted earlier in this thread indicates, the Power flour also contains some Vitamin C and an enzyme. The enzyme is actually fungal amylase.

So, that's the story on the Power flour.

Peter

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #126 on: September 01, 2011, 04:30:55 PM »
Regardless of what was in the video, both PL locations say that they use IDY and 50# sacks of flour.  The yeast information was provided as to those who might have an allergy to ADY; you are safe as they don't report using that kind.   ;)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 04:32:34 PM by Jet_deck »
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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #127 on: September 01, 2011, 04:34:13 PM »
Peter, thanks for calling Pendelton and posting your findings from the converstation you had with the rep from the company.

So do you know if Pendelton is a brand of flour that home consumers can buy or is it just for people in the restaurant industry.  If you or anyone mentioned it already, my apologies.  I thought I read this thread pretty good but if I missed that, sorry.  Can one buy this brand in smaller bags?  I take it that this is the best flour for pizzas, I think you mentioned that Peter, or someone did.


Thanks,


James

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #128 on: September 01, 2011, 04:40:04 PM »
Peter,

Thanks a bunch for checking in with Pendleton. So 65% it is then. Now I can sleep at night again. ;D


James,

As far as I know, the Power Flour is not available at the retail level.
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #129 on: September 01, 2011, 04:45:16 PM »
Any thoughts on my theory are most welcome...

Mike,

If your characterization of the events is correct, and also that the flour is from a 50-pound bag, then the amounts of ingredients shown in the little bowls would have to be bogus because the baker's percents would be very small. Also, if you look at 1:17 in the video, which is after the sugar has been placed in the mixer bowl, you will still see two small bowls on the table, presumably the salt. I think the small bowl in Luigi's hand at 1:08 may be the small bowl with the very small amount of yeast in it.

My estimates of the amounts of yeast and salt will only work for a flour bag size of 30 or 32 pounds, or 25 pounds if we rule that size back in again. Also, a 50-pound bag of flour with a hydration of 65% will yield a total batch size of around 83 pounds. That would fill up a 60-quart mixer bowl and possibly exceed its recommended limit and also come up fairly high in an 80-quart mixer bowl, neither of which appears to be the case from the video.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 04:47:30 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #130 on: September 01, 2011, 04:50:15 PM »
James,

What Mike says about the Pendleton flour is correct. As previously mentioned, some of the Pendleton flours are sold in Smart&Final and Cash&Carry stores, which a lot of chefs and restauranters use for their businesses, but not in small 5- or 10-pound bags, or anything like that.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #131 on: September 01, 2011, 04:59:40 PM »
Mike,

If your characterization of the events is correct, and also that the flour is from a 50-pound bag, then the amounts of ingredients shown in the little bowls would have to be bogus because the baker's percents would be very small. Also, if you look at 1:17 in the video, which is after the sugar has been placed in the mixer bowl, you will still see two small bowls on the table, presumably the salt. I think the small bowl in Luigi's hand at 1:08 may be the small bowl with the very small amount of yeast in it.

My estimates of the amounts of yeast and salt will only work for a flour bag size of 30 or 32 pounds, or 25 pounds if we rule that size back in again. Also, a 50-pound bag of flour with a hydration of 65% will yield a total batch size of around 83 pounds. That would fill up a 60-quart mixer bowl and possibly exceed its recommended limit and also come up fairly high in an 80-quart mixer bowl, neither of which appears to be the case from the video.

Peter

Peter,

You're right. At 1:17 there are still two bowls with white stuff on the table. What my concern is about the video in general are the sequences. I hope they didn't move little bits around during editing and altered with the workflow of Luigi's method.

What I'm trying to say is that hopefully they kept the flow of action the same way in the video as it really happened. If that's the case then the ingredients should be added like this: Water, Yeast, Sugar, Salt and Flour.

Regarding the size of the bags, look at the table in the background in this pic JD posted...they look like 50lb bags to me.
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #132 on: September 01, 2011, 05:11:20 PM »
Regarding the size of the bags, look at the table in the background in this pic JD posted...they look like 50lb bags to me.

Mike,

I noticed that too and commented on it earlier but take a look at what seems to be a smaller bag sitting by its lonesome at 0.43 in the video.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #133 on: September 01, 2011, 05:26:43 PM »
Peter,

It also looks like they have cleaned up that table during the shoot. But that bag does indeed look like a smaller one. All of a sudden it feels a bit as it was all staged for the video compared to what their normal daily routine is.

Using the 25lb bag as a reference to get a formula going is probably the most logical thing to do, if that's what he used in the video.
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #134 on: September 01, 2011, 05:32:13 PM »
Using the 25lb bag as a reference to get a formula going is probably the most logical thing to do, if that's what he used in the video.

Mike,

We sort of ruled out the 25-pound bag (as earlier reported), which left us with a 30-pound bag or a 32-pound bag. It sounds like Luigi now uses an unbleached flour but there is nothing in the video to tell us what he used to make the dough in the video. The 30-pound bag of Power flour is bleached. The 32-pound bag is not.

Peter

Offline tdough111

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #135 on: September 01, 2011, 06:15:59 PM »
James and Peter

I went to the closest Smart and Final by Luigi's and they do not carry Pendelton flour. I then went to Restuarant Depot and they carried the Pendelton Power Flour but only in 50# bags. I asked them if they could order me 32# bags and they told me they couldn't. Is it possible that Luigi buys 50# bags and reweighs the flour to fit his mixer? Would that explain the ripped bag by the mixer? 

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #136 on: September 01, 2011, 06:19:01 PM »
James and Peter

I went to the closest Smart and Final by Luigi's and they do not carry Pendelton flour. I then went to Restuarant Depot and they carried the Pendelton Power Flour but only in 50# bags. I asked them if they could order me 32# bags and they told me they couldn't. Is it possible that Luigi buys 50# bags and reweighs the flour to fit his mixer? Would that explain the ripped bag by the mixer? 


I can ask my pizza guy if they would be able to order the PPF in different sizes. Let's see what he'll say.


Peter,

With which size are you going then?
Mike

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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #137 on: September 01, 2011, 06:23:37 PM »
Peter and Mike, thanks for your responses on Pendleton flour.    I sometimes go to Smart & Final near me, I go to one of two stores to shop and I do look at the flour and I never have seen Pendleton but I have seen high gluton flour.  I forgot what brand but they have a high glueton.  Not sure if it has Vitamin C in it or not though.  The bag has the colors of Italy on it so the brand might have an Italian name on it or at least they might imply that it's great for pizza dough.  Not sure though.  I felt like buying a bag but it's much too much for me to store so I have to get Gold Medal - Better For Bread Flour.  They sell those in reasonable sizes for the home consumer market.  I do fine with that flour but I would love some high gluten flour.  I suppose the Better for Bread is higher in gluten than all purpose but not as high, well as high as "high gluten" flour.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #138 on: September 01, 2011, 06:27:24 PM »
Peter and Mike, thanks for your responses on Pendleton flour.    I sometimes go to Smart & Final near me, I go to one of two stores to shop and I do look at the flour and I never have seen Pendleton but I have seen high gluton flour.  I forgot what brand but they have a high glueton.  Not sure if it has Vitamin C in it or not though.  The bag has the colors of Italy on it so the brand might have an Italian name on it or at least they might imply that it's great for pizza dough.  Not sure though.  I felt like buying a bag but it's much too much for me to store so I have to get Gold Medal - Better For Bread Flour.  They sell those in reasonable sizes for the home consumer market.  I do fine with that flour but I would love some high gluten flour.  I suppose the Better for Bread is higher in gluten than all purpose but not as high, well as high as "high gluten" flour.

James,

It's probably this one:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9483.msg82058.html#msg82058
Mike

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #139 on: September 01, 2011, 06:32:48 PM »
Mike, exactly that's the one.  I forgot the name but when I clicked on your link I immediately recognized it.  I'd not mind using that flour if it was not in a big bag like that.