Author Topic: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA  (Read 63152 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #480 on: September 24, 2011, 03:20:26 PM »
Mike,

I donít know exactly which dough formulation you last used and what happened to your dough, but you and Norma are on the right track to coming up with a generic dough formulation to use.

As you know, all of the dough formulations at Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 are identical but for the amounts of flour. That is why the bakerís percents are different for the four formulations but for the flour, which is always 100%. I was going to suggest a generic dough formulation but you and Norma beat me to the punch. However, I think that there are a couple of things to consider. First, we donít know whether Luigi changed the dough formulation or his methods since the video shoot in the fall of 2008. We were also informed in the article that Norma found at http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/aug/12/save-your-dough/ that Luigi changes his recipe three times a year based on the weather.

Usually, the best way to make weather-related changes is to adjust the water temperature, which should be easy enough to do when using bottled water. The hydration and/or the amount of yeast can also be changed. I do not think that adjusting the salt levels is a particularly good approach for a dough that is to be cold fermented. I think that is a better approach for making a room-temperature fermented dough, as is typically done with Neapolitan style doughs. Whatever changes Luigi makes, you want the workers who actually make the dough to be able to implement the changes easily and consistently. I took a look at a typical chart of average high and low temperatures in San Diego, at http://www.rssweather.com/climate/California/San%20Diego/, and while I donít know at exactly which points Luigi changes his recipe I would think that the changes would be before the hot and cold weather hit. Humidity may also be a factor in the changes. We can only speculate as to the specific types of changes Luigi makes to his dough recipe.

Peter



Peter,

Excellent points which all need definitely to be considered when coming up with a generic formulation for the Luigi clone. I don't have an exact formula in mind nor a timeline on how to approach the generic formula but I have some ideas I'd like to test. That also includes two different flours, the Costco Harvest Bread flour and KABF, since they are probably most accessible to other members compared to the Power flour.

But please also post any ideas for a generic clone formula you might have.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #481 on: September 24, 2011, 03:35:18 PM »
Mike,

That is puzzling that the same brand of Saputoís part-skim mozzarella is acting different. Thanks for posting the video on how floppy you pie turned out.  That is puzzling too. :-\

I agree with you, that I would appreciate if Peter would set-forth a generic dough formulation.  Since Peter is much better at formulations, and can understand why stuff happens much more than I can, I think it would be helpful, at least for me.  I think his ideas of what to change or not to change would be better than mine.

Mike, great you are thinking about using different flours to try do a Luigiís clone for other members.  :)

Norma
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Offline scott123

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #482 on: September 24, 2011, 04:15:56 PM »
Mike, your cheese curdled. The protein curds separated from the watery whey.  In most dishes (mac & cheese especially), curdling produces something inedible, but, when it happens on pizza, the end result is a bit wet, but not completely disgusting, especially if you bake it a bit longer and dry out some of the moisture.  It's still something, that you generally want to avoid, though.  Packaged fior di latte has the greatest propensity towards curdling with longer bake times, but some of the low moisture brick stuff will curdle as well.  Age is one of the biggest culprits.  I think it's obvious that you're having issues with the second block because you've had it around too long.

I don't see cheese sales during the summer, but, during the rest of the year, every couple months I'll see brick mozz (polly-o, sorrento, private label, etc.) go on sale for 1.99/lb.   I have to be really careful about buying too much in advance, though, because if I let the cheese sit around for more than a few weeks, it will curdle when it comes time to make pizza.  Part skim seems to last a bit longer, and some brands seem to hold their own longer as well.  Grande never goes on sale, so I tend to buy it when I need it, so I can't attest to how it reacts over time, but I have been amazed at how well it melts. I've seen some brands curdle on me straight from the store, but never Grande.  I've also seen some brands fail to bubble and brown on top, but, again, never Grande. Nothing melts like Grande.  In a sense, Grande is like the anti-fior di latte. I don't like the lack of creaminess in melted polly-o, but I have to admit that polly-o seems to last longer then most supermarket brands of brick.  Sorrento has also given me pretty good stability as well. 

When I reach for a non grande cheese, I grab the firmest chunk I can find.  Generally speaking, firm (for brick) equals fresh.  If, after a few weeks in the fridge, the cheese is noticeably softer, I won't use it for pizza, regardless of whether or not it has spots or smells off.

For stability:

Soft, white, wet = worst
Firm, off white/translucent, dry = best

Your particular cheese is supposed to be a Grande facsimile, but, from the color and the way it's melted in the past, I'm not really seeing it. The fact that it's curdling on you after less than a month of refrigeration is, imo, the nail on the coffin.  Time for a new brand of cheese.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #483 on: September 24, 2011, 05:35:28 PM »
Mike, your cheese curdled. The protein curds separated from the watery whey.  In most dishes (mac & cheese especially), curdling produces something inedible, but, when it happens on pizza, the end result is a bit wet, but not completely disgusting, especially if you bake it a bit longer and dry out some of the moisture.  It's still something, that you generally want to avoid, though.  Packaged fior di latte has the greatest propensity towards curdling with longer bake times, but some of the low moisture brick stuff will curdle as well.  Age is one of the biggest culprits.  I think it's obvious that you're having issues with the second block because you've had it around too long.

I don't see cheese sales during the summer, but, during the rest of the year, every couple months I'll see brick mozz (polly-o, sorrento, private label, etc.) go on sale for 1.99/lb.   I have to be really careful about buying too much in advance, though, because if I let the cheese sit around for more than a few weeks, it will curdle when it comes time to make pizza.  Part skim seems to last a bit longer, and some brands seem to hold their own longer as well.  Grande never goes on sale, so I tend to buy it when I need it, so I can't attest to how it reacts over time, but I have been amazed at how well it melts. I've seen some brands curdle on me straight from the store, but never Grande.  I've also seen some brands fail to bubble and brown on top, but, again, never Grande. Nothing melts like Grande.  In a sense, Grande is like the anti-fior di latte. I don't like the lack of creaminess in melted polly-o, but I have to admit that polly-o seems to last longer then most supermarket brands of brick.  Sorrento has also given me pretty good stability as well. 

When I reach for a non grande cheese, I grab the firmest chunk I can find.  Generally speaking, firm (for brick) equals fresh.  If, after a few weeks in the fridge, the cheese is noticeably softer, I won't use it for pizza, regardless of whether or not it has spots or smells off.

For stability:

Soft, white, wet = worst
Firm, off white/translucent, dry = best

Your particular cheese is supposed to be a Grande facsimile, but, from the color and the way it's melted in the past, I'm not really seeing it. The fact that it's curdling on you after less than a month of refrigeration is, imo, the nail on the coffin.  Time for a new brand of cheese.

Scotty,

Thanks a bunch for shedding some light on that issue.

I have used Grande before, as a matter of fact just recently, and the experience was great albeit a not so good one I had with it in the past. The Saputo is not really a competition to Grande, I'm afraid. The melting capabilities are just not there.

I see if I can get a block of Grande from my pizza guy some time next week.
Mike

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Offline scott123

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #484 on: September 24, 2011, 07:29:44 PM »
Mike, I know that Grande is very expensive for you, so I'm not necessarily pushing you to spend that kind of money. I'm just pointing out that, from my experience, stability is one of many areas in which Grande excels. I don't think it's worth $10+/lb, though.

I've never tried it myself, but do you have access to Boar's Head?  It looks like it's dry, slightly yellow and firm, aka, slightly grande-ish.

And, although I went from being a private label fan to a Grande devotee, I still think private label has it's merits.  As I said, if you can find a firm package and use it quickly, it will melt beautifully and won't cost you an arm and a leg.  Grande has a buttery quality, while private label, at it's best, is creamy.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 07:32:07 PM by scott123 »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #485 on: September 24, 2011, 07:40:02 PM »
Mike, I know that Grande is very expensive for you, so I'm not necessarily pushing you to spend that kind of money. I'm just pointing out that, from my experience, stability is one of many areas in which Grande excels. I don't think it's worth $10+/lb, though.

I've never tried it myself, but do you have access to Boar's Head?  It looks like it's dry, slightly yellow and firm, aka, slightly grande-ish.

And, although I went from being a private label fan to a Grande devotee, I still think private label has it's merits.  As I said, if you can find a firm package and use it quickly, it will melt beautifully and won't cost you an arm and a leg.  Grande has a buttery quality, while private label, at it's best, is creamy.


Scotty,

Grande over here is sold at a high mark-up per pound. Even my pizza guy mentioned Grande is more costly for them than other cheeses but given the quality, it's great.

I just found out today, though, that Grande launched its "Piacci" label in 2008 and its widely available here so I'll check on some prices. If they're sky-high I'll order a 6lb block from my pizza guy, which he mentioned runs around $28 if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.piacci.com/cheese/whole-milk-mozzarella
Mike

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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #486 on: September 24, 2011, 08:40:46 PM »
Mike, your cheese curdled. The protein curds separated from the watery whey.  In most dishes (mac & cheese especially), curdling produces something inedible, but, when it happens on pizza, the end result is a bit wet, but not completely disgusting, especially if you bake it a bit longer and dry out some of the moisture.  It's still something, that you generally want to avoid, though.  Packaged fior di latte has the greatest propensity towards curdling with longer bake times, but some of the low moisture brick stuff will curdle as well.  Age is one of the biggest culprits.  I think it's obvious that you're having issues with the second block because you've had it around too long.

I don't see cheese sales during the summer, but, during the rest of the year, every couple months I'll see brick mozz (polly-o, sorrento, private label, etc.) go on sale for 1.99/lb.   I have to be really careful about buying too much in advance, though, because if I let the cheese sit around for more than a few weeks, it will curdle when it comes time to make pizza.  Part skim seems to last a bit longer, and some brands seem to hold their own longer as well.  Grande never goes on sale, so I tend to buy it when I need it, so I can't attest to how it reacts over time, but I have been amazed at how well it melts. I've seen some brands curdle on me straight from the store, but never Grande.  I've also seen some brands fail to bubble and brown on top, but, again, never Grande. Nothing melts like Grande.  In a sense, Grande is like the anti-fior di latte. I don't like the lack of creaminess in melted polly-o, but I have to admit that polly-o seems to last longer then most supermarket brands of brick.  Sorrento has also given me pretty good stability as well. 

When I reach for a non grande cheese, I grab the firmest chunk I can find.  Generally speaking, firm (for brick) equals fresh.  If, after a few weeks in the fridge, the cheese is noticeably softer, I won't use it for pizza, regardless of whether or not it has spots or smells off.

For stability:

Soft, white, wet = worst
Firm, off white/translucent, dry = best

Your particular cheese is supposed to be a Grande facsimile, but, from the color and the way it's melted in the past, I'm not really seeing it. The fact that it's curdling on you after less than a month of refrigeration is, imo, the nail on the coffin.  Time for a new brand of cheese.

Scott,can cheese that is not chilled properly in the stores cause it to breakdown faster in the oven?I mean,they keep it cold,but sometimes I think "Not cold enough."

I notice when I buy cheese,say whole milk mozz, and if the block feels a little bit warm,even though its been sitting in the fridge aisle on a cold shelf,it seems to be more "watery" or squishy in a sense,than one that is colder.

Thanks.

 :)




-Bill

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #487 on: September 24, 2011, 09:02:09 PM »
Were you pretty careful cheesing the pizza?  Any chance you over-cheesed the center?  Probably not, but I thought I would mention it bro.
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #488 on: September 25, 2011, 06:16:11 PM »
Were you pretty careful cheesing the pizza?  Any chance you over-cheesed the center?  Probably not, but I thought I would mention it bro.

JD,

Thanks for the tip.

I don't think I over-cheesed the pie. The curdling didn't really occur in the center, it was more toward the outside and it shows in the pic I posted. I think Scotty is right with his analysis about the cheese and its problem.

I am looking for some different Mozza right now. Saputo was worth the try, though.
Mike

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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #489 on: September 25, 2011, 10:26:35 PM »
Carry on Mike.  It looks super crispy and good.  I am especially interested in the exact sauce that you choose for the experiment.  I would love to have bakers percents to replicate it in my home....  :chef:
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Offline scott123

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #490 on: September 25, 2011, 11:23:19 PM »
Scott,can cheese that is not chilled properly in the stores cause it to breakdown faster in the oven?I mean,they keep it cold,but sometimes I think "Not cold enough."

I notice when I buy cheese,say whole milk mozz, and if the block feels a little bit warm,even though its been sitting in the fridge aisle on a cold shelf,it seems to be more "watery" or squishy in a sense,than one that is colder.

Bill, all dairy products contain micro-organisms that grow faster at higher temps.  It's these micro-organisms that lower the pH of the milk/cheese and cause it to be more curdle-prone. The lower the temperature, the slower the growth.   If a market is storing the cheese at a slightly higher temperature than normal, then it will spoil faster and curdle easier.

Cheese was basically invented to prolong the life span of milk, though, so some time at room temp is not the end of the world.  My previous source for Grande used to sell it wrapped in plastic at room temp.  I wouldn't take this home and store it for a month or two, but, when I used it in a day or two, I never had a problem.  Also be aware that warm cheese is naturally softer than cold cheese, so when you take warm cheese home and toss it in the fridge, assuming that the store hasn't completely abused it, it should firm up.  The warning sign that I'm telling people to look out for is cheese that's a bit squishy and soft when cold.  That's when you know it's past it's prime.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #491 on: September 25, 2011, 11:53:04 PM »
Carry on Mike.  It looks super crispy and good.  I am especially interested in the exact sauce that you choose for the experiment.  I would love to have bakers percents to replicate it in my home....  :chef:


JD,

Peter posted a Baker's percent version of said sauce here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153103.html#msg153103

Let us know, if you make it and use it, how you liked it since every individual's palate is different  :)
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #492 on: September 25, 2011, 11:54:43 PM »
Bill, all dairy products contain micro-organisms that grow faster at higher temps.  It's these micro-organisms that lower the pH of the milk/cheese and cause it to be more curdle-prone. The lower the temperature, the slower the growth.   If a market is storing the cheese at a slightly higher temperature than normal, then it will spoil faster and curdle easier.

Cheese was basically invented to prolong the life span of milk, though, so some time at room temp is not the end of the world.  My previous source for Grande used to sell it wrapped in plastic at room temp.  I wouldn't take this home and store it for a month or two, but, when I used it in a day or two, I never had a problem.  Also be aware that warm cheese is naturally softer than cold cheese, so when you take warm cheese home and toss it in the fridge, assuming that the store hasn't completely abused it, it should firm up.  The warning sign that I'm telling people to look out for is cheese that's a bit squishy and soft when cold.  That's when you know it's past it's prime.

Scotty,

I'm always amazed at your knowledge. Where do you get that from?  ;D

Either way, thanks for the informative and educational post.
Mike

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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #493 on: September 26, 2011, 12:24:23 AM »
Scott,
Thanks for the reply.It was very helpful!
 8)







-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #494 on: September 26, 2011, 08:09:41 AM »
If anyone is interested, I saw an article on PMQTT recently about what was the best type of flour to use for NY style pizzas.  It seems Tom Lehmann doesnít see much differences in what type of high-gluten flour is used for NY style pizzas.  He posted they did tests on high-gluten flours and couldnít see much difference in the performance of using different high protein flours.  If anyone wants to read the thread it is at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10668

Makes me wonder now since I tried KASL and also bromated flours as I posted at Reply 452 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg154018.html#msg154018  and saw there really wasnít any difference in my pizzas (preferment Lehmann) from using KASL or bromated flours, if the brand of high-gluten flour doesnít matter at all, or maybe only a small amount, unless you want to stay away from bromated flours.  Tom said bromated flours only helps a little more with the memory of the dough as he posted at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10668#p73798

I know this thread for Luigiís pizza to be really cloned needs Power flour for the cloning process, but wonder if it matters if members or other guests just use whatever high-gluten flour they have on hand.

Norma
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #495 on: September 26, 2011, 08:45:51 AM »
JD,

Peter posted a Baker's percent version of said sauce here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153103.html#msg153103

Let us know, if you make it and use it, how you liked it since every individual's palate is different  :)


I was referring to reply #456 where you added some more stuff.  I am ultimately curious as to what Armondo got to try....
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Offline scott123

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #496 on: September 26, 2011, 04:12:01 PM »
Mike, you're welcome. Thanks for your kind words.

Bill, you're welcome.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 10:12:38 AM by scott123 »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #497 on: September 26, 2011, 05:55:39 PM »
I was referring to reply #456 where you added some more stuff.  I am ultimately curious as to what Armondo got to try....

JD,

I have the numbers saved on my work computer and will post them tomorrow. Off today.
Mike

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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #498 on: September 27, 2011, 02:15:54 PM »

True.

I might have to go down to San Diego at some point and try Luigi's for myself. But until that happens, the video is all I can go by for now, unfortunately.




Mike,

I have not been on the Pizza Forum for a few days and missed a lot of good post, gotta catch up on my reading.  Learning a lot here.

As far as Luigi in SD goes remember there are two locations.  I did not know that when I went to SD during the summer but lucked out to go to the right one, I mean the one where DDD was filmed.   I don't know if you want to go to both locations just to see how consistent they are but if you only go to one just make sure it's the right one.

Luigi -


Off the pizza subject, if you go to SD go to eat at Athony's Fish Grotto if you like fish.  There are two of them too, one on the wharf by the Star of India clipper ship and one inland.  Guess which one I recommend?  Yes, you got it, the one on the wharf.  I never been to the one inland but it makes no sense to eat fish there if you can eat it on the wharf.   

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Offline PizzaEater101

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Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
« Reply #499 on: September 27, 2011, 02:23:10 PM »
Anyone here have experience with Trader Joe's brand whole milk moz or even the part-skim? What do you think of that?


Thanks


 

pizzapan