Author Topic: cusinart neapolitan style  (Read 3251 times)

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Offline thezaman

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cusinart neapolitan style
« on: August 01, 2011, 08:42:57 AM »
someone in one of the threads mentioned a book by Charles Van Over where all of his bread is mixed in a cusinart. since i use a vertical cutter mixer at work for my pizza dough. i bought the book to get some ideas on making bread with my machine.i used his method for a batch of dough at home . i baked in my primavera 70 and the results were very good lots of nice rise in the dough. no toughness to the cooled pizza.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2011, 09:27:50 AM »
Beautiful crumb shot Larry.  Looks perfect to me.  100% 00? Usual bake time?  How long was the overall fermentation?  Cake yeast or starter?

Chau
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 11:03:17 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2011, 09:55:39 AM »
I was a big fan of the Van Over method for baguettes until I met the Tartine method. Here is a post I made a long time ago about my attempts to use my food processor for Neapolitan dough:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6322.msg54238.html#msg54238


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2011, 10:25:43 AM »
I would really like to give his method a try.  Larry are the steps Bill posted similar to what you did?

(reposted from Bill's post)

1. Put all flour in the bowl.
2. While the blade is spinning, pour in all of the water and mix just until dough begins coming together in a ball.
3. Allow to rest for 5 minutes
4. Turn the processor back on and count as the ball does 45 revolutions around the bowl.
5. Allow to rest for 20 minutes
6. Put starter and salt in the bowl
7. Turn the processor back on and count as the ball does 45 revolutions around the bowl.
8. Ferment and proof @ 65F for 48 hours.

Thx,
Chau

Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2011, 11:30:26 AM »
 first, thanks Bill it was your post that i read that led me to the book. i was surprised that he mentioned the stephan company in the credits as that is my vcm brand. i have been looking for more information from the author,but there in nothing showing up.
  what i did was mixed 500 grams of flour and 13 grams of salt in the bowl blipped to mix added 310 of cold crystal geyser spring water [34 degrees]. to the water i added  .15 oz of fresh yeast and a pinch of flour that i reserved from the 500 grams before salting it.i blended this with a wisk to melt my yeast.i added the mixture and mixed till it hit 75 degrees. the dough cleaned itself from the sides and was a nice smooth mass. two hours bulk rise, this gave me three balls at about 270 grams, which room tempreature rose for 4 more hours.i put it away in my cooler for about two hours .i then let it warm till the fire was up to temperature two hours.i pretty much followed the method i use at work.i shoot for cold dough from my machine and let room temperaure bring it to my storage temperature. we use ice to regulate our final dough .
  if anyone has infirmation on this author let me know i would love to contact him.
  i know this is not vpn but it works and it sure is quick!!!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 05:08:52 PM »
Thanks Larry.  Did you happened to count the number of revolutions the dough made or did you just keep running the FP until you reached your desired dough temp?

If my math isn't off, this was approximately a 10 hour dough all in all?  
2 hour bulk, then divide and ball.  Proof for 4 hours at room temps, then 2 hours in the cooler, and 2 hours at room temps while your oven was warming up.

How did the dough look and feel compared to your regular dough? Any differences there?

I assume the dough opened up nicely since it wasn't tough after the cool down.  

Thank you,
Chau
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 02:19:47 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 07:06:58 PM »
 you are right on it was 10 hours of proofing.i did not count revolutions i shot for 75 degrees. the book recommends 79 to 80 degrees. i did two 500 gram batches today and used temperature as my guide. i can say after a two hour rise the feel was the same as dough mixed in my sp5 mixer.
  last month i went to a seminar by ciril hitz and asked him if he though that bread from a spiral mixer could equal dough mixed in a conventional machine,he said no. the only exception was a method by a baker that used some type of a chamber  when mixing in a spiral blender.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2011, 09:14:52 AM »
Larry, I made dough last night using my FP.  I can't remember the last time I've made dough with it.  I never did experiment much with it.  It got let behind after I got into hand kneading, the Bosch, modified Tartine method, and everything in between.

Anywho, I used a modified version of what both you and Bill posted.  After the bulk, the dough looks and feels great, very similar to Roberto's #2 instructional video.  I hope they bake up just as nice.   Thank you for posting this and bringing me back to the FP.  I'll be doing more experimenting with it now.

Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 10:54:38 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline DrivenAgain

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2011, 10:33:27 AM »
Those pies look super, Id loooove to have the space for a  Primavera 70.  Another Cuisinart proponent here  :chef:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 10:35:29 AM by DrivenAgain »

Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2011, 09:23:19 AM »
chau, looking forward to seeing your results. since i use my vcm every day these experiments are exciting.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 07:10:22 PM »
Larry, I made 2 batches, one on Monday night and one on Tuesday night using my cusinart FP.  Both batches were made similarly whereby the dough was mixed and allowed to bulk at room temps for about 8-10hrs, then CF for 2-3 days and baked on Thursday night.  

first 2 pies are from Monday nights batch.  The crust was really good.   Puffed up high and the marinara had a really satisfying slight crispiness to the veneer.  The crust just had the right/proper texture if you know what I mean.  Hard to describe.  Forgot to mention that this batch does contain 10% HG flour.  

THANKS again for posting this method Larry & Bill.  I will have to test this method against the Modified Tartine method that I like to use.

Chau
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:05:36 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 07:11:24 PM »
This one was made from Tuesday's Batch.  Good but Monday's crust was better. 

Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 01:11:58 PM »
 the crumb looks really good. are you happy with the pizza after it cools down? today i did 10 pounds caputo blue 2 pounds of kasl and 60 % hydration 2.5 % salt.this was mixed in my vcm. i will get 8 hours out of it before 5 pm service.2 hour bulk the rest of the time room temp rise.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2011, 05:02:22 PM »
the crumb looks really good. are you happy with the pizza after it cools down? today i did 10 pounds caputo blue 2 pounds of kasl and 60 % hydration 2.5 % salt.this was mixed in my vcm. i will get 8 hours out of it before 5 pm service.2 hour bulk the rest of the time room temp rise.

There was a bit more chew compared to my higher hydration NP pies if I remember correctly.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 03:36:10 PM by Jackie Tran »

parallei

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 01:20:28 PM »
I figured I give the food processor method a whirl with one of my rare attempts at a 100% Caputo.  Worked fine, but the turn and fold method is less trouble for me as I only make enough for two pies at a time.  I really gotta get over my fear of torching the things and start using more heat!

Offline RobynB

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 02:30:15 PM »
Those look awfully good to me!  They look so light (as in airy) and tender, definitely delicious. 

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2011, 07:29:07 PM »
The Van Over book, "The Best Bread Ever", goes back quite a few years and I believe is now out of print. I've read it, and ironically, I was at the public library today to pick up a couple of Ciril Hitz's baking books and saw a copy of Van Over's book. He is VERY specific about time of mix AND the combined temperature of the ingredients. Don't quote me, but I believe that for most processors he recommends the starting temperature to be (take temp of flour + temp of the water) 150. Don't get confused. what he says is if the temperature of the flour is 75 (basically room temp) then the water temp should be 75, so added together they equal 150. How he arrived at these numbers I'm not quite sure, but supposedly he did a lot of research and trial and error with the people at Cuisanart to develop his methods. He gives a target mix time of around 45 seconds, with provisions for adjustments. Again, everything is stated very specifically, it not just a matter of throwing things in the food processor and turning it on until it looks OK!. It's a decent read, but afyer trying it once or twice I basically forgot about it.

Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2011, 02:39:27 PM »
 the method is flour temp minus 130 equals the needed water temp. today my flour was 81 degrees my water should have been 49 degrees. mine was 39 degrees and after mixing 45 seconds my dough was 81 degrees.i am using a robo coupe and 600 grams of flour.
 will see how my 8 hour risen pizza looks and tastes tonight.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 02:56:40 PM »
@thezaman. yes,130 does sound more like it. Old age is catching up to me. I think he even mentioned that in a certain make of food processor (I forget which one), you had to make an adjustment because it created a different heat level. I believe the food processor creates more aeration in your dough, and since aeration aids fermentation, expect your doughs to rise higher and in shorter time then usual. Look forward to hearing your results. Perhaps I'll pick up the copy I saw at the library and re-read it.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2011, 03:39:32 PM »
How he arrived at these numbers I'm not quite sure, but supposedly he did a lot of research and trial and error with the people at Cuisanart to develop his methods. He gives a target mix time of around 45 seconds, with provisions for adjustments. Again, everything is stated very specifically, it not just a matter of throwing things in the food processor and turning it on until it looks OK!.

Of course the temps are very specific, otherwise he wouldn't sell many books.   The truth is that there aren't any magic numbers, temperatures, # of revolutions, etc.  The specific instructions that he gives will give a certain/specific dough condition.  You can arrive at that dough condition numerous ways.  Okay so it wouldn't be exactly the Van Over method, but it WILL do just fine. 

Consider this....even if you use ice cold water, if you do a 30m to 1hour rest period after mixing the initial ingredients, the dough temp will have approximated room temps during the rest period.   So the starting temps can vary quite a bit depending on how hot your kitchen is and how much of a rest period you are using.   Same with the finishing dough temps.  Once done mixing, if the dough is bulked at room temps, it will approximate that temperature rather quickly.   So IMO, it matters not much if the finish dough temp is 75F or 82F.  Both doughs will bake up extremely similary.

Getting hung up on dough temps is like getting hung up on NY water.  It is just one variable among many.  If you don't have the vast majority of your ducks lined up, focusing on dough temps alone or sourcing NY magic water is a waste of time and really just pointless. 

DMC, this post is not directed at you so I hope you don't take it that way.  I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your post.  I'm just merely stating my opinion (ranting). 

The FP makes a decent dough, but it's more inherant in the type of mixer and it's action than it is Mr. Van Over's specific methodology.  Again, I haven't read the book so maybe I should just keep my mouth shut.   :-D

Chau


 

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