Author Topic: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps  (Read 40439 times)

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Offline Christopher

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2006, 12:44:24 PM »
hey, enob,
i bought a bag of the Conagra Hi-gluton (the plain bag with just type on it) and found it to be a comparable flour as far as flavors go and baking, but not necessarily worthy of any great praise. the only thing that sets it apart is the cost, at around $5 for a 25 pound bag you cant beat that. i still have a soft spot for my KA Bread flour though, but i also have like 20 lbs. of Conagra left! all in all i think it is a good buy.
hope that helps,
chrsitopher


Offline enob

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2006, 03:19:54 PM »
Thanks Christopher and your right $5 for 25 pounds is a great deal.

Offline Wazatron

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2006, 03:00:38 PM »
I've been looking for the KASL flour everywhere around where I live, and I can't find it at all.  Just about everyone carries KA flour, but not this variety.

In fact, I've had the hardest time finding any High-Gluten flour.  The best thing I've been able to find (until today) has been Pillsbury Bread Flour for Bread Machines, which I learned from watching Good Eats has the highest protein content of any of the bread flours - that is, the flour made for "Bread Machines", not necessarily Pillsbury’s.

I’ve checked…
Safeway
Albertsons
King Supers (a.k.a. Krogers)

Today I went down to Whole Paycheck (i.e. Whole Foods) figuring if anyone had the KASL it would be them.  Nope!  Once again, they didn’t have it.  And interestingly enough, the KA company doesn’t even seem to advertise it as a product on their website.

However… lo and behold in the bulk section I found a barrel of “White High Gluten Flour”.  It was .79 cents a pound (I haven’t figured out yet whether that’s good or bad, especially for HG flour).  But it’s bulk… so I have no idea really who made it or if it’s any good.

Does anyone out there have any experience with the Whole Foods bulk HG Flour?

Is there any grocery store that actually carries the KASL flour in-store, or do you have to order it online?

Finally, I’ve not seen any 00 flour either – is this another type of flour that you pretty much have to order online?


Online Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2006, 03:29:54 PM »
Wazatron,

If you had seen this thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2429.0.html, as well as several others on this topic, you would have learned that you won't find the KASL in the supermarkets or even the high-end stores like Whole Foods. Other brands of high-gluten flours will likewise be hard to find at the supermarket level but some stores like Costco's and Smart and Final do sell high-gluten flour in large bags. The 00 flour is sold in some stores but the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, which is the favorite of our members at the moment, is not sold at the retail level. Much has been written on the forum about ways to get the KASL and Caputo 00 Pizzeria flours, so you may want to look at the threads under the Resources section of the forum and also under Dough Ingredients.

I suspect what you saw at Whole Foods is vital wheat gluten. It is a form of gluten that is added to other flours to increase their gluten content. If what you saw was a tan color, I would say that it was vital wheat gluten. It is not the same thing as high-gluten flour.

Peter

Offline Wazatron

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2006, 04:27:18 PM »
Great - thanks for the info!  I'll poke around the forums more: should have, of course, done that first.

At any rate, the stuff I found at Whole Foods was definately high-gluten flour.  They also had VWH gluten as well, and yeah it was kind of a tan color.  The hg flour was all white, and was in fact labeled as "White High Gluten Flour".  I'm going to try it out with a Pizza Inn thin crust this weekend!   :)

Online Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2006, 04:34:31 PM »
Wazatron,

You might check with Whole Foods sometime to get the brand of the flour, or the supplier. Often bread flour is labeled as high-gluten flour.

Peter

Offline abc

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2006, 10:43:00 PM »
I still prefer the Sir Lancelot. But, All-Trumps isn't too bad.


why do you 'prefer' the SL?  it tastes better?  it makes a better NY style crust for you?


In my baking, I've started to wonder if KA SL makes a pie that has a crust that reminds me too much like a bagel...

i've been tasting various NY pizzas again and their crust, and when i say crust, it's the outter rim that you hold, and at that, the top not the bottom edge... the 'epidermal' layer so to speak, is very thin and delicate... and the whole slice, rather soft... slight crunch/crackle...

i might try baking my future pies at 450 instead of 540-550...  but perhaps also these pizzerias use not yeast but dough starters....  or try i'll some AllTrumps like many pizzerias do.

Offline scott r

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2006, 12:00:40 AM »
In my baking, I've started to wonder if KA SL makes a pie that has a crust that reminds me too much like a bagel...

I've been tasting various NY pizzas again and their crust, and when i say crust, it's the outter rim that you hold, and at that, the top not the bottom edge... the 'epidermal' layer so to speak, is very thin and delicate... and the whole slice, rather soft... slight crunch/crackle...

ABC, I agree, every time I eat street pizza in NY it tastes to me like they are using lower protein flour than KASL.  I personally think that the KA bread can lead to a closer approximation of the NY street pizza texture. It also has the added benefit of being unbleached and unbromated unlike most of the all trumps that you will find.   This is why I often reccomend that people on this forum not jump through so many hoops to obtain the KASL when the King Arthur bread is readily available in most grocery stores.

Of course, I have found that mixing and dough processing methodology contributes massively to the finished texture of my pizza, and when I mess up it usually turns out that my pies are too bagel like.

I can guarantee you that NY street pizzerias are not using a starter culture.  They are definitely using commercial yeast.

Before you buy new flour try mixing your dough less, proofing it longer, or both.  If that does not help then try using a lower protien flour. Even all trumps is lower protien than KASL.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 12:51:49 AM by scott r »

Offline abc

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2006, 12:05:05 AM »
scott... interesting writeup to my thoughts... i had been very high on KASL for a while and had been coasting along with it for months but indeed recently i began to ponder that whereas i once thought i was close as many of us here are, i wasn't as close as I thought.  It it's a enjoyable, high quality pizza, char and all, droop and all, but still different.

i thought the pizzerias use some starter because they have huge balls of dough, and what they don't use or what they do is simply migrate some existing dough to a immature batch, and give it a nice slow, long, tabulated rise...

i wondered this because all trumps isn't a heck of a lot less protein percent than KASL, though maybe it doesn't take much difference in protein to be significant?..., but i thought maybe more likely that starters and a slower rise due to using starters instead of yeast, yields the NYC slice feel that I'm still missing.

i have 1 pizza shop nearby that i know for a fact uses all trumps since i've seen their delivery bags... i also wondered if most places mix flours, all trumps + caputo type comes to mind, but no i don't think this is it, except for DiFaras... 

So if a place uses 100% AT, that's why i thought the shops use starters... because i can't readily suspect another variable.  being that i've never tried making dough via a starter... this is one reason for my curiosity about whether this was the key to unlocking the new lock I've placed on my own trials.

i've used KA bread flour rather extensively in the past but i don't think i've used it with the lehman dough nor the mixing techniques i've learned here.

But one thing,

If pizzerias use allTrumps, then i should work from there and tweak something else that I currently don't understand.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2006, 10:01:18 AM »
abc,

I completely agree with scott r that NY street pizza operators do not use starters. What you may have in mind is the fairly common practice used by pizza operators of "recycling" leftover, or "scrap", dough that may remain unused at the end of the day, or just before making the next dough batch. Depending on the age (fermentation) of the dough, it can have flavor effects on the next batch of dough, but in most cases the recycling of the dough has an economic purpose--to save money by not throwing stuff away. In fact, if the flavor effects are too different, customers may notice and complain about the inconsistent results. There is also a practical limit as to how much of the scrap dough can be recycled. In case you did not see it, not too long ago I discussed this aspect at the Lehmann thread, at Reply 388 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg25670.html#msg25670. As you will note there, it will usually be necessary to use something close to the normal amount of yeast for the next dough batch. This is because a "spent" dough is unlikely to have sufficient leavening power of its own to leaven the entire new dough batch.

I might add that there is a way of getting additional flavor in a crust by making a special batch of dough and adding it to the next batch. This is described by Tom Lehmann here: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=24812. In another writing, Tom described the process, somewhat more simply, as follows (in italics):

Take about 5-pounds of dough and place it in a plastic pail and leave it out at room temperature (covered) to ferment all night. Then simply add this to your fresh/new dough that you make. This will help to boost the flavor too, something like a poor boys sourdough.

I have no idea as to how common it is for pizza operators to use the approach described by Tom. However, it shouldn't be all that difficult to try once you decide what percent of the total dough weight the added "preferment" should represent.

As for the protein content of the All Trumps flour, if you go here, http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/pflour.asp, and click on the number 50121 or 50111, and then the Product Specification link, you will see (in a Word document) that the All Trumps (either bleached/bromated or not) has a protein content of 14.2 +/- 0.3%. As you will see from the Pizza Glossary, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#S, the protein content of the KASL is 14.2 +/- 0.2%. King Arthur is known for its tight specs and, in practice, their flours tend to be a bit higher in protein than its competitors. However, in the case of the All Trumps, one is unlikely to notice the difference in protein content.

I also wouldn't be surprised if some NY street pizza operators use a lower protein flour than All Trumps or KASL, especially if they do a delivery business. It is not uncommon for crusts using high-gluten flours to get hard and increasingly leathery by the time the pizzas reach the delivery location. Using a bread flour, which will produce a softer crust, sometimes is a better choice for delivery purposes.

Good luck with your continuing research.

Peter



Offline abc

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2006, 05:47:55 PM »
sure, it's entirely possible, with so many pizzerias in nyc... some use a flour other than AT...  but at the same time, more than some use AT...

i'm curious to see if a tablespoon or so of milk into a dough ball for a 16" pie of the lehman dough has any kind of affect.



i do wonder if there is anyone on the forum that has used both KASL and Trumps?  I don't readily recall, but am curious to know how they differ in respective crusts.


many nyc pizza shops offer delivery, local delivery... but they don't build their products with delivery in mind... a delivery based chain like dominos may, but a 1 owner, 1 shop nyc pizza gig doesn't really factor in 'age' time in their product any more than beyond it sitting on their counter before being cut and thrown back in the item for reheating, I imagine.

in any event i'm going to either try:  getting some trumps, milk, baking at 425 to 450degrees instead of 525-550...

the nyc pies bake in their ovens for more than 10min... i have to keep that in mind and they don't come out well done.

it's nice to revive a old thread.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 06:38:09 PM by abc »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2006, 06:34:37 PM »
abc,

You won't notice one tablespoon of milk in about 20-21 ounces of Lehmann dough. If you are serious about milk, you would have to use much more, typically above 25% of the water. It can even replace 100% of the water if you'd like. And you would have to scald it and then cool it. See, for example, http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?read=24816. It also depends on why you want to use the milk. Is it for crust texture, crust color, more calcium, more flavor, or what? From what I can tell, few pizza operators use milk. They might use a baker's grade nonfat dry milk or dried dairy whey, both of which are cheaper than milk, and that is usually for crust color more than anything else. Using milk in a home environment is one thing, but for most pizza operators milk is likely to be an inconvenience. Apart from the dough management challenges, if they use too much milk it can easily affect their entire bake protocol because of the propensity of milk to cause more and faster browning.

I suspect that you are right about the popularity of All Trumps among NYC pizza operators. I mentioned using a lower protein flour more in the context of delivery pizza.  In that vein, some pizza operators even use all-purpose flour.

Peter


Offline abc

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2006, 08:22:43 PM »
hmm all purpose flour?  i haven't used AP in over 10yrs for pizza....

i was thinking outloud and considered milk for the aspect of crust texture, a tad more tender.

if 1-2 tablespoons of milk won't make a difference, guess i'm barking up the wrong tree.  anything more, and like you say and i wouldn't suspect that pizzeria doughs are that costly as a large amt of milk would make them.

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2006, 10:12:58 PM »
Tony, or anyone else for that matter,
know of any places on the west coast (Seattle in particular) that carries All Trumps?

Offline dinks

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2006, 02:23:43 PM »
I HAVE ZIPPERS:
   Good morning. I am going to list a few places you can check-out.  1 place is in Seattle, Wash. I have no idea if they carry "ALL TRUMPS".

Merlino foods
5200 Denver ave. south
Seattle, Wash. #98108
 #(203) 723 4700
 Contact JEFF

Ital foods, inc.
205 shaw road
So. San Francisco, #94080,CALIF.
(650) 877 0724
Contact Walter.

   Good luck & have a nice day.   (I have other places as well in the west).

~DINKS 
 

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2006, 12:25:59 AM »
Dinks,
have you dealt with Merlino?  I remember back in the winter at some point, I discovered them, but apparently they are not open to the public.  Peter contacted them and said he sensed some willingness to maybe do a one-time order, but it sounds like a lot of work and schmoozing is involved.

Anyhow, if you have dealt with them or know someone who does, please let me know.  Thanks for the post.

Offline dinks

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2006, 01:44:00 PM »
IHAVEZIPPERS:
  Good morning to you. Thank-you for your quick response. NO!!! I have never dealt with them before.  Their name appeared in my files only. I have further information about flours from provision wherehouses but I am unable to locate this paper. Howver my friend one name that appears in my head is DAWN FOODS In Seattle, Wash. The reason I did not list this in my post yesterday is because I could not find the pad that I had listed this info on just during the earlier part of this week. I get these senior moments quite frequently now due to my advanced age. I just located this info. Call them at 1 (800) 422-0547.  All TRUMPS flour is item #00287698 I do not know the price nor any of their rules about selling to the public. These warehouses have rules that I believe they :chef: :chef: are trying to discourage bizzz-nizzz.
   In any event If I can help you further please post. Good luck & have a nice day.

   ~DINKS.
 


Offline ihavezippers

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2006, 10:23:47 PM »
Hey Dinks,
I have also contacted Dawn Foods on two occassions.  One time they completely refused me, the other time they said they would sell to me if I made an order with what I believe was a $250 minimum.  So, it appears unless someone on the board knows someone there, we will not be getting anything from them.

If you can think of anyone else or know of anyone, let me know.  I'd even be willing to drive for it, say to Oregon or Vancouver, B.C. (although that might get hairy crossing the border with a 50lb bag of flour...how can you justify that?...I don't think the truth that I am a pizza enthusiast will carry me very far).

Thanks

Offline dinks

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2006, 01:14:26 PM »
IHAVEZIPPERS:
  Good morning. I just finishished speaking to DAWN FOODS Customer service dep't. I spoke with Mz. Paul.
 I asked if there would be any way that you can just go in as a member of the public & purchase 1- 50 pound bag of "ALL-TRUMPS flour with-out any hitch. She said to me "YES"!!!! just call them first & place your order at 2 hours before. Here is the item again #00287698. The cost is $12.98. No checks, use cash or credit card. Any problems ask to speak to Mz. Paul.   Now you do not need to drive anywhere.

1 (800) 422-0547

   Good luck & have a nice day.

   ~DINKS.

Offline Jack

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2006, 11:48:43 AM »
IHZ,

Just curious if/why you feel the All Trumphs would be better than Pendleton's High Gluten.  I'm just about out of flour and was planning on grabbing a 50 lb. bag of Pentleton's at C&C early next week.  While it will be a vast improvement over the 3% AP flour I've been using, if the All Trumps is significantly better, I should wait and go for it instead.

Thanks in advance,

Jack

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2006, 12:38:57 AM »
Dinks,
I love you.  Thanks a lot.  I wonder why the sudden change of heart at Dawn Foods?


IHAVEZIPPERS:
  Good morning. I just finishished speaking to DAWN FOODS Customer service dep't. I spoke with Mz. Paul.
 I asked if there would be any way that you can just go in as a member of the public & purchase 1- 50 pound bag of "ALL-TRUMPS flour with-out any hitch. She said to me "YES"!!!! just call them first & place your order at 2 hours before. Here is the item again #00287698. The cost is $12.98. No checks, use cash or credit card. Any problems ask to speak to Mz. Paul.   Now you do not need to drive anywhere.

1 (800) 422-0547

   Good luck & have a nice day.

   ~DINKS.

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2006, 12:59:19 AM »
So after doing a little research, it appears Dawn Food Products has an exclusive distributorship of King Arthur flour?  If this is so, I am wondering whether I should still stick with the All Trumps or try and get my hands on some KASL?

It seems like All Trumps is certainly more commonly available than KASL.
Does anyone know if you can indeed get KASL from Dawn Food Products?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2006, 08:59:24 AM »
ihavezippers,

There are fans of both flours, so whether you decide on one or the other will end up being a personal decision. Both flours are very popular and their specs, and particularly protein content, are just about the same, as you will note here:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/Primary%20sell%20sheet.pdf, and

http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/pflour.asp#50111 (click on Microsoft Word Specification Documents).

At the GM site you will note two All Trumps flours, one that is bromated and bleached and one that is non-bromated and unbleached. Some bakers prefer the bromated version because it helps strengthen the dough, especially those that are proofed before baking (you can see the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, under “Potassium Bromate”, for details on bromates). The KASL is neither bromated or bleached.

The Dawn Foods location near me in the Dallas area carries KASL. Not all distribution locations, even within the same company, carry all of the same items. So, it will pay to ask if you are interested in the KASL over the All Trumps.

Peter

Offline Harv

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2006, 01:27:47 PM »
Just received my 50# bag of KASL today from Dutch Valley Foods.  Ordered it yesterday and it arrived today by noon.  $17.84 for the flour, $15.18 shipping.  On the phone yesterday the rep told me a distributer in my area so next time I can avoid the shipping charge.

Offline jawjatek

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2006, 08:13:51 PM »
I noticed the KA bakers catalog and website lists 3 lb bags of King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour. Thought home bakers like me might  find this useful; forgive me if this is already known. I ordered 2 bags to try out - I usually use 00 Caputo or KA Italian style, because I am trying to duplicate the pizze I remember from living in Italy 3 years.  :)HTH


 

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