Author Topic: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps  (Read 34624 times)

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Offline Steve

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2005, 09:56:50 AM »
alright, guys,
this may be a dumb question, but after trying to find some answers i am still in the dark as to what the bromating process? i understand it is chemical and listed as a possible cancer causing agent, but why? also does a package list that it is bromated or are there ways to tell?
i guess if i had to pick a word for the glossary it would be bromated.  :)
thanks for any info.
christopher


I added Potassium Bromate to the Pizza Glossary.  :)

http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html
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Offline Christopher

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2005, 12:35:42 PM »
hey, guys,
thanks for all the input! i made three pizzas with the conagra and they came out pretty good. i actually did not feel the dough was that much stronger than my KA Bread flour with wheat gluten added so maybe it isnt all that high-gluten to begin with.
i mixed all of the ingredients into the water, used a few pinches of yeast and some starter and used the stretch and fold technique with 65% hydration which worked extremely well for big voids. they came out well, but stilla lot of experimentation left to do.
all in all a decent flour with no distinct differences to my taste buds.
and thanks for putting bromated in the glossary, Steve!  ;D
christopher

Offline JPY

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2005, 08:07:13 PM »
Someone mentioned about CHAMPLAIN VALLEY MILLING, INC in NY.  We ordered some of the flour, I'm not sure what kind it is, but it's probably for bread baking.  I was told that they do some of milling for King Aurthur.  The Raplhs (Kroger) markets carry King Aurthur Flour in 5 pound bags for a couple of bucks. It's the all purpose flour and wheat.  And we should be getting the flour from Champlain in a bit.  We've been working with these for a couple of months both for pizza and bread in our wood fired ovens we make.
-JP-

Offline freshflour

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2005, 02:39:29 PM »
hey, guys,
does anyone know if the All-Trumps carried at Costco is the bromated variety?
i was hoping to get over and see if the store near me carries it. :)
thanks,
Christopher

My local Costco carries the 50111 All Trumps flour, which is bromated.

Offline enob

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2006, 11:26:02 PM »
Has anyone tried the ConAgra High Gluten Flour?
My Costco has it but as noted the label is exactly the same as their AP.

Offline Christopher

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2006, 12:44:24 PM »
hey, enob,
i bought a bag of the Conagra Hi-gluton (the plain bag with just type on it) and found it to be a comparable flour as far as flavors go and baking, but not necessarily worthy of any great praise. the only thing that sets it apart is the cost, at around $5 for a 25 pound bag you cant beat that. i still have a soft spot for my KA Bread flour though, but i also have like 20 lbs. of Conagra left! all in all i think it is a good buy.
hope that helps,
chrsitopher

Offline enob

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2006, 03:19:54 PM »
Thanks Christopher and your right $5 for 25 pounds is a great deal.

Offline Wazatron

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2006, 03:00:38 PM »
I've been looking for the KASL flour everywhere around where I live, and I can't find it at all.  Just about everyone carries KA flour, but not this variety.

In fact, I've had the hardest time finding any High-Gluten flour.  The best thing I've been able to find (until today) has been Pillsbury Bread Flour for Bread Machines, which I learned from watching Good Eats has the highest protein content of any of the bread flours - that is, the flour made for "Bread Machines", not necessarily Pillsbury’s.

I’ve checked…
Safeway
Albertsons
King Supers (a.k.a. Krogers)

Today I went down to Whole Paycheck (i.e. Whole Foods) figuring if anyone had the KASL it would be them.  Nope!  Once again, they didn’t have it.  And interestingly enough, the KA company doesn’t even seem to advertise it as a product on their website.

However… lo and behold in the bulk section I found a barrel of “White High Gluten Flour”.  It was .79 cents a pound (I haven’t figured out yet whether that’s good or bad, especially for HG flour).  But it’s bulk… so I have no idea really who made it or if it’s any good.

Does anyone out there have any experience with the Whole Foods bulk HG Flour?

Is there any grocery store that actually carries the KASL flour in-store, or do you have to order it online?

Finally, I’ve not seen any 00 flour either – is this another type of flour that you pretty much have to order online?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2006, 03:29:54 PM »
Wazatron,

If you had seen this thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2429.0.html, as well as several others on this topic, you would have learned that you won't find the KASL in the supermarkets or even the high-end stores like Whole Foods. Other brands of high-gluten flours will likewise be hard to find at the supermarket level but some stores like Costco's and Smart and Final do sell high-gluten flour in large bags. The 00 flour is sold in some stores but the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, which is the favorite of our members at the moment, is not sold at the retail level. Much has been written on the forum about ways to get the KASL and Caputo 00 Pizzeria flours, so you may want to look at the threads under the Resources section of the forum and also under Dough Ingredients.

I suspect what you saw at Whole Foods is vital wheat gluten. It is a form of gluten that is added to other flours to increase their gluten content. If what you saw was a tan color, I would say that it was vital wheat gluten. It is not the same thing as high-gluten flour.

Peter

Offline Wazatron

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2006, 04:27:18 PM »
Great - thanks for the info!  I'll poke around the forums more: should have, of course, done that first.

At any rate, the stuff I found at Whole Foods was definately high-gluten flour.  They also had VWH gluten as well, and yeah it was kind of a tan color.  The hg flour was all white, and was in fact labeled as "White High Gluten Flour".  I'm going to try it out with a Pizza Inn thin crust this weekend!   :)


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2006, 04:34:31 PM »
Wazatron,

You might check with Whole Foods sometime to get the brand of the flour, or the supplier. Often bread flour is labeled as high-gluten flour.

Peter

Offline abc

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2006, 10:43:00 PM »
I still prefer the Sir Lancelot. But, All-Trumps isn't too bad.


why do you 'prefer' the SL?  it tastes better?  it makes a better NY style crust for you?


In my baking, I've started to wonder if KA SL makes a pie that has a crust that reminds me too much like a bagel...

i've been tasting various NY pizzas again and their crust, and when i say crust, it's the outter rim that you hold, and at that, the top not the bottom edge... the 'epidermal' layer so to speak, is very thin and delicate... and the whole slice, rather soft... slight crunch/crackle...

i might try baking my future pies at 450 instead of 540-550...  but perhaps also these pizzerias use not yeast but dough starters....  or try i'll some AllTrumps like many pizzerias do.

Offline scott r

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2006, 12:00:40 AM »
In my baking, I've started to wonder if KA SL makes a pie that has a crust that reminds me too much like a bagel...

I've been tasting various NY pizzas again and their crust, and when i say crust, it's the outter rim that you hold, and at that, the top not the bottom edge... the 'epidermal' layer so to speak, is very thin and delicate... and the whole slice, rather soft... slight crunch/crackle...

ABC, I agree, every time I eat street pizza in NY it tastes to me like they are using lower protein flour than KASL.  I personally think that the KA bread can lead to a closer approximation of the NY street pizza texture. It also has the added benefit of being unbleached and unbromated unlike most of the all trumps that you will find.   This is why I often reccomend that people on this forum not jump through so many hoops to obtain the KASL when the King Arthur bread is readily available in most grocery stores.

Of course, I have found that mixing and dough processing methodology contributes massively to the finished texture of my pizza, and when I mess up it usually turns out that my pies are too bagel like.

I can guarantee you that NY street pizzerias are not using a starter culture.  They are definitely using commercial yeast.

Before you buy new flour try mixing your dough less, proofing it longer, or both.  If that does not help then try using a lower protien flour. Even all trumps is lower protien than KASL.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 12:51:49 AM by scott r »

Offline abc

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2006, 12:05:05 AM »
scott... interesting writeup to my thoughts... i had been very high on KASL for a while and had been coasting along with it for months but indeed recently i began to ponder that whereas i once thought i was close as many of us here are, i wasn't as close as I thought.  It it's a enjoyable, high quality pizza, char and all, droop and all, but still different.

i thought the pizzerias use some starter because they have huge balls of dough, and what they don't use or what they do is simply migrate some existing dough to a immature batch, and give it a nice slow, long, tabulated rise...

i wondered this because all trumps isn't a heck of a lot less protein percent than KASL, though maybe it doesn't take much difference in protein to be significant?..., but i thought maybe more likely that starters and a slower rise due to using starters instead of yeast, yields the NYC slice feel that I'm still missing.

i have 1 pizza shop nearby that i know for a fact uses all trumps since i've seen their delivery bags... i also wondered if most places mix flours, all trumps + caputo type comes to mind, but no i don't think this is it, except for DiFaras... 

So if a place uses 100% AT, that's why i thought the shops use starters... because i can't readily suspect another variable.  being that i've never tried making dough via a starter... this is one reason for my curiosity about whether this was the key to unlocking the new lock I've placed on my own trials.

i've used KA bread flour rather extensively in the past but i don't think i've used it with the lehman dough nor the mixing techniques i've learned here.

But one thing,

If pizzerias use allTrumps, then i should work from there and tweak something else that I currently don't understand.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2006, 10:01:18 AM »
abc,

I completely agree with scott r that NY street pizza operators do not use starters. What you may have in mind is the fairly common practice used by pizza operators of "recycling" leftover, or "scrap", dough that may remain unused at the end of the day, or just before making the next dough batch. Depending on the age (fermentation) of the dough, it can have flavor effects on the next batch of dough, but in most cases the recycling of the dough has an economic purpose--to save money by not throwing stuff away. In fact, if the flavor effects are too different, customers may notice and complain about the inconsistent results. There is also a practical limit as to how much of the scrap dough can be recycled. In case you did not see it, not too long ago I discussed this aspect at the Lehmann thread, at Reply 388 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg25670.html#msg25670. As you will note there, it will usually be necessary to use something close to the normal amount of yeast for the next dough batch. This is because a "spent" dough is unlikely to have sufficient leavening power of its own to leaven the entire new dough batch.

I might add that there is a way of getting additional flavor in a crust by making a special batch of dough and adding it to the next batch. This is described by Tom Lehmann here: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=24812. In another writing, Tom described the process, somewhat more simply, as follows (in italics):

Take about 5-pounds of dough and place it in a plastic pail and leave it out at room temperature (covered) to ferment all night. Then simply add this to your fresh/new dough that you make. This will help to boost the flavor too, something like a poor boys sourdough.

I have no idea as to how common it is for pizza operators to use the approach described by Tom. However, it shouldn't be all that difficult to try once you decide what percent of the total dough weight the added "preferment" should represent.

As for the protein content of the All Trumps flour, if you go here, http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/pflour.asp, and click on the number 50121 or 50111, and then the Product Specification link, you will see (in a Word document) that the All Trumps (either bleached/bromated or not) has a protein content of 14.2 +/- 0.3%. As you will see from the Pizza Glossary, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#S, the protein content of the KASL is 14.2 +/- 0.2%. King Arthur is known for its tight specs and, in practice, their flours tend to be a bit higher in protein than its competitors. However, in the case of the All Trumps, one is unlikely to notice the difference in protein content.

I also wouldn't be surprised if some NY street pizza operators use a lower protein flour than All Trumps or KASL, especially if they do a delivery business. It is not uncommon for crusts using high-gluten flours to get hard and increasingly leathery by the time the pizzas reach the delivery location. Using a bread flour, which will produce a softer crust, sometimes is a better choice for delivery purposes.

Good luck with your continuing research.

Peter



Offline abc

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2006, 05:47:55 PM »
sure, it's entirely possible, with so many pizzerias in nyc... some use a flour other than AT...  but at the same time, more than some use AT...

i'm curious to see if a tablespoon or so of milk into a dough ball for a 16" pie of the lehman dough has any kind of affect.



i do wonder if there is anyone on the forum that has used both KASL and Trumps?  I don't readily recall, but am curious to know how they differ in respective crusts.


many nyc pizza shops offer delivery, local delivery... but they don't build their products with delivery in mind... a delivery based chain like dominos may, but a 1 owner, 1 shop nyc pizza gig doesn't really factor in 'age' time in their product any more than beyond it sitting on their counter before being cut and thrown back in the item for reheating, I imagine.

in any event i'm going to either try:  getting some trumps, milk, baking at 425 to 450degrees instead of 525-550...

the nyc pies bake in their ovens for more than 10min... i have to keep that in mind and they don't come out well done.

it's nice to revive a old thread.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 06:38:09 PM by abc »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2006, 06:34:37 PM »
abc,

You won't notice one tablespoon of milk in about 20-21 ounces of Lehmann dough. If you are serious about milk, you would have to use much more, typically above 25% of the water. It can even replace 100% of the water if you'd like. And you would have to scald it and then cool it. See, for example, http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?read=24816. It also depends on why you want to use the milk. Is it for crust texture, crust color, more calcium, more flavor, or what? From what I can tell, few pizza operators use milk. They might use a baker's grade nonfat dry milk or dried dairy whey, both of which are cheaper than milk, and that is usually for crust color more than anything else. Using milk in a home environment is one thing, but for most pizza operators milk is likely to be an inconvenience. Apart from the dough management challenges, if they use too much milk it can easily affect their entire bake protocol because of the propensity of milk to cause more and faster browning.

I suspect that you are right about the popularity of All Trumps among NYC pizza operators. I mentioned using a lower protein flour more in the context of delivery pizza.  In that vein, some pizza operators even use all-purpose flour.

Peter


Offline abc

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2006, 08:22:43 PM »
hmm all purpose flour?  i haven't used AP in over 10yrs for pizza....

i was thinking outloud and considered milk for the aspect of crust texture, a tad more tender.

if 1-2 tablespoons of milk won't make a difference, guess i'm barking up the wrong tree.  anything more, and like you say and i wouldn't suspect that pizzeria doughs are that costly as a large amt of milk would make them.

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2006, 10:12:58 PM »
Tony, or anyone else for that matter,
know of any places on the west coast (Seattle in particular) that carries All Trumps?

Offline dinks

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Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2006, 02:23:43 PM »
I HAVE ZIPPERS:
   Good morning. I am going to list a few places you can check-out.  1 place is in Seattle, Wash. I have no idea if they carry "ALL TRUMPS".

Merlino foods
5200 Denver ave. south
Seattle, Wash. #98108
 #(203) 723 4700
 Contact JEFF

Ital foods, inc.
205 shaw road
So. San Francisco, #94080,CALIF.
(650) 877 0724
Contact Walter.

   Good luck & have a nice day.   (I have other places as well in the west).

~DINKS 
 


 

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