Author Topic: Pete-zza's Reverse Eng'g. of Buzz's Version of Giordano's Deep-Dish Pizza  (Read 13492 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Yesterday, the Fourth of July, I decided to try to come up with the baker’s percents and weights for Buzz’s Giordano’s deep-dish pizza pie. Buzz had originally posted his recipe for his re-creation of the famous Giordano’s deep-dish pizza at the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1184.0.html. Because of the popularity of Buzz’s version, and since Buzz uses volume measurements rather than weights, I posed several questions to Buzz (see Replies 7, 8, 24 and 25 at the above thread for Q&A) in an effort to divine his exact procedures so that I might replicate them in my own kitchen and come up with weights for the various ingredients (mainly the flour, water and oils) and the corresponding baker’s percents. In a sense, what I am now trying to do is to reverse engineer Buzz’s reverse engineering of the Giordano’s deep-dish pie. The value of baker’s percents in this case, of course, is that they permit one to make a deep-dish pizza of any size, not only the 9 1/2-inch size that Buzz’s recipe makes.

To make my test dough, I tried to follow Buzz’s standard practice in making the Giordano’s clone as he described it at the above thread. I used volumes only and weighed everything on my digital scale. I tried to follow exactly Buzz’s instructions to make the dough, including combining and kneading everything by hand, with a final knead of no more than 2 minutes (I even set a timer). I found that I needed only one teaspoon of extra water in order to get the dough to the stage I believe Buzz aims for. The test dough I ended up with was allowed to ferment (covered) at room temperature for 8 hours. During that time, I estimate that the dough rose by less than a quarter—and that was at a very warm room temperature. To be able to make the pizza on the Fourth, I placed the dough (covered) in the refrigerator the night before.

Eighteen hours later, I brought the dough to room temperature, covered it loosely with a sheet of plastic wrap, and set it aside to warm up. About 2 hours later, I proceeded to roll out and shape the dough to fit a 9 1/2-inch-by 2-inch deep pan—the same size as Buzz’s. As Buzz instructed, I rolled the dough out as thinly as possible (around 13-14 inches), folded it in quarters and then rolled it out again as thinly as possible. I had no problems whatsoever in rolling out the dough, and needed little in the way of bench flour. After I finished rolling out the dough, I lifted it up gently and draped it over the 9 1/2-inch-by 2-inch deep pan (lightly oiled) and pressed the dough down into the pan to fit snugly. Since the diameter of the rolled-out dough was greater than the pan could handle (as Buzz had indicated it would be), I trimmed off the excess. And I weighed it (2.15 oz.). I did this in order to be able to calculate the “net” weight of dough that would be needed to practice Buzz’s recipe in the event one wanted to make only the exact amount of dough for his recipe, i.e., without the excess. That way, one wouldn’t have to guess at how much dough should be put into the pan. And, since the dough handles and “spreads” easily once in the pan, one can adjust the dough to fit snugly in the pan. (This approach is intended for a pan with a side that is 2 inches deep. For a deeper pan, one would press the dough up to 2 inches, or the dough amounts would be adjusted upwardly to fit the entire depth.)

To bake the dressed pizza, I placed it on the middle rack position of a 500 degrees F. preheated oven (electric) and, after lowering the oven temperature to 450 degrees F when the pizza went into the oven, I allowed the pizza to bake for about 25-30 minutes. About 20 minutes into the bake cycle, I noticed that the crust was browning faster than I thought appropriate (my pan is dark and fairly heavy). So for the remaining 10 minutes I covered the pie with a sheet of aluminum foil, which seemed to work well.
 
Based on the amount of data I now have, I believe I can actually come up with two sets of baker’s percents—one for Buzz’s original recipe, which will produce a bit more dough than actually needed, and one for the “net” amount of dough (without the excess). However, before settling on a final set of baker’s percents, and for the sake of accuracy, I would like to have Buzz’s input and feedback as to whether I came close to how he makes the dough for his recipe and, if not, where I went astray or erred. To assist him in this regard, I have posted photos of the dough at different stages, and hope that they are adequate to be of value to Buzz’s analysis. I have also presented photos in the following thread of the finished pizza. The first photo below shows the final, kneaded dough. The second photo shows the dough as it came out of the refrigerator and was put on my countertop to warm up before rolling out and shaping. The third photo shows the pizza after it was dressed.

For the sake of completeness at this juncture, I have set forth below the preliminary weights and baker’s percents and other relevant information for Buzz’s recipe as I calculated them, on the chance that Buzz (or anyone else for that matter) might pick up on something that appears to be out of order. The volume measurements are Buzz’s, the weight measurements and baker’s percents are mine.

100%, King Arthur brand all-purpose flour (11.7%), 1 1/2 c. (7.40 oz.)
2.03%, ADY (SAF brand), 1 t. (0.15 oz.)
2.7%, Kosher salt (Morton’s brand), 3/4 t. (0.20 oz.)
2%, Sugar, 3/4 t. (0.15 oz.)
10.1%, Canola oil (5 1/2 t.) and Classico brand light olive oil (1/2 t.), (0.75 oz. total)
41.9%, Water (bottled, at 105-115 degrees F), 6 T. (3.10 oz.)
Total dough ball weight = 11.50 oz.
Finished dough temperature = 85 degrees F.
“Net” dough ball weight (total dough ball weight less 2.15 oz. scrap) = 9.15 oz.
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.07 (tentative)

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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The photos below show the finished pizza. To dress the pizza, I used slices of provolone cheese, followed by shredded mozzarella cheese (Frigo brand low-moisture part-skim), one link Italian sausage (removed from casing, broken up into small pieces and precooked until just pink), sliced mushrooms (sauteed in butter and olive oil), diced green peppers (lightly sauteed in olive oil), 17 slices of pepperoni (Hormel brand), the pizza sauce, and grated Romano and Parmigiano-Reggiano cheeses. The pizza sauce was a combination of 6-in-1 tomatoes and a sauce made from reduced leftover can liquids from a can of Famoso DOP San Marzano tomatoes--including fresh herbs (oregano, basil, parsley and summer savory), Penzeys pizza seasoning, minced fresh garlic, olive oil, grated Romano, Parmigiano-Reggiano, and grana padano cheeses, red pepper flakes, and a bit of sugar.

The finished pizza was very good and I enjoyed it thoroughly. Hopefully, with Buzz’s feedback, I will be able to improve upon it further. For comparison purposes, I did look at the photo of the pizza shown at the Giordano’s website, as well as a few other photos I found from a Goggle image search, and have some observations to make as a result, but I will await Buzz’s comments before commenting further.

Peter

Offline DKM

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That's pretty close to what I came with when I did Buzz's recipe.  I converted mine to a "double" batch to use 16 oz of flour as a base like many of the recipes here on the site.  So if you half mine you get around:

8      oz AP Flour
.13   oz IDY
.19   oz Kosher Salt
.19   oz Sugar
.88   ozCanola Oil
.2     oz Olive oil
3.38 oz Water

It should be noted that unless a person can roll out an almost perfect circle, the excess dough is very helpful to get it in the pan correctly.

DKM
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Offline Pete-zza

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DKM,

I recalled your earlier thread but didn't want your results to bias my thinking one way or the other, inasmuch as I was trying to put myself into Buzz's shoes as much as possible. The thought did occur to me to mention your thread and to say that I was going to "reverse-engineer DKM's reverse-engineering of Buzz's reverse-engineering of Giordano's deep-dish pizza" :).

You make a very good point on the merit of having a little bit more dough. The first time I rolled out the dough I had a generally round dough ball to begin with and it was easy to roll out to keep its round shape. The second time, the dough was basically a triangular shape, which is much harder to roll into a round shape.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 02:30:33 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline DKM

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I think the title would have been too long  ;)

Always best to start with the source, I was just verifying your results.

I couldn't roll it round the first time if a $1,000,000 was up for grabs  >:(

DKM
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Offline buzz

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Looks good--you sure put a lot of work into this!

Did it come out biscuit-like for you? I've been experimenting with different amounts of oil.

Offline Pete-zza

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Buzz,

I don't mind putting in the effort if the results are worth it. Plus, I'm used to playing around with weights and baker's percents.  What I am mainly looking for, apart from a great product, is a formulation that I can adapt to any pan size no matter where I am. The two data points I need to do this are a specified weight of dough for a particular pan size (in your case, 9 1/2-inches, 2 inches deep) and the dough thickness factor (TF). From there, the baker's percents and a calculator take over to produce the quantities of each ingredient in the formulation.

My own reaction to the pie I made was that the crust was quite a bit thinner than DKM's deep-dish. In his case, I calculated that the thickness factor (TF) was over 0.13. In your recipe, if I followed it correctly, I got a thickness factor of around 0.07. Then again, DKM said his dough was about 1/4-inch thick, which is about double the 1/8-inch thickness that you mentioned. So, the two numbers appear to be consistent.  When I looked at the photo at the Giordano's website, and some photos of the Giordano pie I found through a Google image search, I thought the Giodano's crusts were thicker than mine. Is your crust thicker than mine? And can you estimate how thick the Giordano's crust typically is?

As for the texture of the pie I made, I thought it would be more biscuit-like than it turned out to be. I liked the layering effect in the crust from rolling the dough twice, but overall there was also a bit of cracker-like quality to the crust, especially at the rim, which was exposed more directly to the oven heat. I attributed this to the thinness of the crust. Next time, I would be inclined to use more of the dough to get a thicker crust rather than discarding it, as I did when I made the pie. Alternatively, I may use a "heavier hand" in measuring out the volumes of flour and water. And maybe increase the amount of canola/olive oil blend. When I looked at DKM's weights when he tried to replicate your pie, his numbers are a bit higher than mine overall (total dough ball weight). Since I liked the layering effect in the crust, I might go for three rollings of the dough. I have an idea in mind to use next time to try to keep the round shape through all rollings. If it works, I will report on it.

I liked the pie very much. I had some leftover slices yesterday and enjoyed them as much as the first time. So I would like to get closer to your results if they differ from mine to any significant degree, since that would mean that I will be closer to the Giordano's pie. My goal remains to post the baker's percents once I am satisfied that I have effectively replicated your results. So any thoughts and ideas you can offer would be much appreciated.

Peter

Offline DKM

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Of course it is important to remember that Buzz and I both go by look and feel, so any one time messuring that we may do is not 100% accurate.

DKM
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Offline Pete-zza

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DKM,

What you say is correct. I know from my past experiences from working with and weighing ingredients specified in volumes that there can be fairly wide variations. And in any single situation, the results can be quite unreliable. It's the old adage that you can't determine a trend from a single data point. One would have to repeat a recipe many times to get a statistically meaningful set of numbers. Under those circumstances, I would be happy with the median or an average. Unless you and Buzz are chronically heavy-handed or light-handed, I suspect your results will trend toward the median or average over time. For now, I am just looking to discover whether I am heading in the right direction based on Buzz's personal experience and his intimate familiarity with the type of deep-dish pizzas he has been making.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Waste not, want not!!

In my opening post on this thread, I indicated that when I placed the dough into my deep-dish pan I had 2.15 ounces of dough left over. Rather than throwing it away, I decided to press it into a small 7-inch (outside diameter) cutter pan that I had purchased some time ago from pizzatools.com. I spread out the dough so that it covered the entire bottom surface (but not up the sloping sides). I estimate that the dough was about 1/16-inch thick, or about half the thickness of the dough used for the deep-dish pie. I then covered the pan with a sheet of plastic wrap and put it into the refrigerator until I was ready to use it--which turned out to be today. The pan went into my refrigerator on the afternoon of the 4th of July and came out this afternoon (July 6). So the dough spent two days in the refrigerator from the time I made the deep-dish pizza.

I let the dough warm up at room temperature over a period of about 2 hours and then added some pizza sauce, cheese (a mixture of provolone and mozzarella) and pepperoni slices. The pizza was baked for about 7-8 minutes in a 450 degree F preheated oven. The pan went onto the middle oven rack position. No pizza stone was used. Some julienned fresh basil was added after the pizza came out of the oven.

The photos below show the finished pizza. Buzz had previously indicated in another thread that his dough makes a good thin-crust pizza. He was right. The pizza was very good. It had a soft crust but was also a bit crunchy because of the browning of the crust bottom. It made for a great snack and I was left wanting more. I can only imagine what a larger pizza would be like using Buzz's recipe. On the assumption that the thickness factor remained the same as with the dough I used for the deep-dish pizza, I calculate that the same amount of dough that I produced from Buzz's recipe (11.30 ounces) would make a roughly 14-inch pizza. Rolling the dough even thinner would make an even larger pizza, a couple of smaller ones, or several like the one shown below in the photos.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 09:45:09 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline DKM

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ooooooooooooooooo

Yum
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Offline buzz

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The thin crust looks good! Now try one rolling the dough out wafer-thin (maybe twice as thin as what you have)!

As for the thickness of the deep dish--you are absolutely correct in your observations. I have at times rolled the dough too thin and the result is a thinner-crust pie (and I prefer it to be a bit thicker). Giordano's puts their deep-dish dough through a sheeter (twice) before panning, so the rolling at home tries to duplicate this. I think by using a lighter hand with the rolling pin, you can produce a thicker dough (or press it in by hand after laminating). And DKM is right--we're doing this by feel, so the results can vary. I'm going to experiment with 2 cups of flour per 9.5" pizza, and see how this results.

BTW, this recipe makes excellent rolls with the leftover dough!

I hope you will experiment with the oil amount--this biscuity texture (for me, anyway) is the most important part. I have had them come out very biscuit-like and sometimes not so much so. Please run some trials on your own to make improvements!

Offline Pete-zza

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The photos below and in the following post show the results of my latest attempt to replicate a Giordano’s deep-dish pizza as interpreted by Buzz. The pizza was made in the same manner as the last, with the following basic changes to the recipe as originally posted: 1) The amount of flour was increased from 1 1/2 cups to 2 cups; 2) the baker’s percent for the oil blend was increased to 12% (by weight of flour); and 3) the hydration percent was increased to 43% (by weight of flour). The above changes were made in an effort to make the dough easier to handle and to try to achieve a thicker, more biscuit-like crust. As noted below, I also shaped and rolled the dough in a different manner than previously used. The latest recipe, as modified from the last, is as follows, including the baker’s percents:

100%, King Arthur brand all-purpose flour (11.7% protein), 2 c. (10.85 oz.)
2.03%, ADY (SAF brand), 1 1/2 t. (0.22 oz.)
2.7%, Kosher salt (Morton’s brand), a bit less than 1 1/2 t. (0.29 oz.)
2%, Sugar, a bit more than 1 1/2 t. (0.22 oz.)
12%, Canola oil (7 1/4 t.) and Classico brand light olive oil (about 5/8 t.), (1.302 oz. total)
43%, Water (bottled, at 105-115 degrees F), between 1/2 and 5/8 c. (4.67 oz.)
Total dough ball weight = 17.50 oz.
Finished dough temperature = 87.4 degrees F.
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.096 (tentative)

The dough was made in the same manner as previously described. It was almost immediately evident that the increase in the amount of canola oil blend and water made the dough extremely easy to knead. It even had a lighter, less dense feel to it. And it definitely was oily. The dough was left at room temperature (covered) for 8 hours, during which time it rose by about fifty percent (see the first photo below). The dough was then placed in the refrigerator, where it remained for about 42 hours. In preparation for shaping the dough, it was brought out to room temperature, divided into two equal weight dough balls (for reasons to be discussed below), covered with plastic wrap, and allowed to warm up for about 2-3 hours.

When time came to prepare the pizza, in lieu of rolling out the dough, folding it in quarters (to form a triangular-shaped piece of dough), and then re-rolling it again, I chose instead to create a layered effect with the dough while at the same time maintaining the desired round shape of the final dough round. To do this, I first rolled out one of the two dough balls as thinly as I could into a first dough round--to about 12 inches in diameter. I then centered the second dough ball on top of the just-formed first dough round, flattened it, and rolled it out also—right on top of the first round. As I rolled out the two superimposed dough rounds, both of the rounds increased in diameter, with the bottom dough round being larger than the top dough round (by about an inch or two). To create the final dough round, I folded the outer edges of the bottom dough round over onto the top dough round (at its perimeter) and pressed the doughs together with my fingers to seal them. This created an integral unit. I then rolled the final “laminated” dough round out to about 14-15 inches. The advantage of this approach was that I was able to maintain the round shape throughout the entire rolling process rather than trying to roll out a basically triangular-shaped piece of dough to a round configuration. At the same time, I created a layered effect in the dough.

I had no difficulty whatsoever in placing the final rolled-out dough into the deep-dish pan. I trimmed the excess dough (about 5 ounces), which I then formed it into a ball and placed back in the refrigerator to be used at another time to make a thin-crust pizza. The weight of the dough within the deep-dish pan itself was around 11.95 ounces, or almost 3 ounces more than the last pizza dough. So, I knew that the final dough/crust thickness would be greater than the last.

After the pizza was dressed, it was baked in the same manner as the previous pizza. The finished pizza (shown in the remaining photos) reflected all of the improvements I was hoping to achieve. The crust was thicker, more biscuit-like and with a layered texture. The crumb was also softer than the crust of the last pizza—undoubtedly due to the increased amounts of the canola oil blend and the water.

From a taste standpoint, I would say that the most recent pizza was almost the equal of the last one. If I had to give the edge to one of the pizzas, I would say that I just slightly preferred the last pizza better because it had a degree of crispiness and crunchiness of the crust that appealed to me. However, for me, I think the final answer perhaps lies somewhere in the middle. To that end, the next dough I experiment with will use a smaller size dough ball to achieve a slightly thinner dough/crust, while retaining all the present baker’s percents. I also think I may produce a dough ball just big enough to make the pizza without any leftover. I believe that this may be possible since I now know that it is possible to keep the shape of the dough round at all times and can control its final size (diameter), shape and thickness. I will use the same dough rolling technique, but may use three dough balls next time, of equal weight, and, to further improve the texture of the crust, possibly add bits of butter or shortening between the three layers as they are superimposed on top of each other and rolled out. Of course, none of this is as Giordano’s would do it, but then again, I don’t have a sheeter. It’s also fun to play around with theses kinds of things.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 10, 2005, 11:45:05 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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The pizza out of the pan, and a slice.


Offline buzz

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Wow--that looks REALLY GOOD!

So you basically just took two rounds of pizza dough and stuck them together, then rolled it out into an integral unit? That's a great idea!

Any chance you can translate your formula into cups and teaspoons for us doing-it-by-hand types?

Offline Pete-zza

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Buzz,

Thanks. Coming from a real expert on deep-dish pizzas that's a nice compliment.

You should be able to use the recipe as I posted it, which includes volume measurements as well as weights. What I did was to start with 2 cups of flour which I scooped out of the flour bag as you do, and then weighed it. As I mentioned before, I increased the amount of flour in order to get a slightly larger dough ball and, hence, a thicker crust. I also increased the baker's percents or the oil blend and the water. I left all the other baker's percents alone. I then used the baker's percents to calculate the weights of all the ingredients other than the flour and then converted the weights for those ingredients to volume measurements. So, other than making minor adjustments on the kneading board, you should be able to use the quantities specified in the recipe I posted.

For the next iteration, I will most likely reduce the thickness factor (TF) to something between the two thickness factors I used before so that I can get a crust thickness between the two values I used before. From the new thickness factor I can calculate the amount of dough I will need for the size of deep-dish pan (e.g., 9 1/2 inch) and then use the baker's percents to come up with the weights of all the ingredients to produce that amount of dough. That's the beauty of baker's percents. It allows you to scale up or down without changing the thicknesses of crusts. Ultimately, the objective is to come up with a final set of baker's percents that will allow one to determine the quantities of ingredients to make a dough for any size deep-dish pan. My practice for a long time has been to convert weights to volumes for those who don't have or use scales.

I am also anxious to try out the three-layer laminated dough with bits of butter and/or shortening (cold) between the layers. This will be more like making puff pastry but with a leavened dough. If I go this route, I may want to reduce the baker's percent for the canola oil blend since I will be substituting for part of it with the butter/shortening.

Peter

Offline buzz

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Oh, sorry--I didn't see those other figures! So you used @8 TSP. oil/2 cups flour?

I don't qualify as a deep dish expert--just groping in the dark! Lol!

Offline Pete-zza

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Buzz,

That's correct.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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As I indicated in my recent post on my latest deep-dish pie, I ended up with about 5 ounces--actually 4.95 ounces--of leftover dough after I had placed the rolled-out dough into my deep-dish pan and trimmed off the excess. Since Buzz had previously indicated that the dough from his deep-dish recipe also makes a very good thin crust pizza, I decided to use the leftover dough to make such a pizza. Buzz had suggested that I roll out the dough extremely thinly—even thinner than I had tried before with some leftover dough from his basic recipe. So, I did as Buzz suggested.

After bringing the dough out of the refrigerator and letting it warm up for about 2-3 hours, I rolled out the 4.95 ounces of dough to 14 inches, the size of a cutter pan I had purchased from pizzatools.com. I didn’t believe that such a small amount of dough could be rolled that thinly, but it did, and with no difficulty whatsoever. No need for bench flour, no sticking to my cutting board, and no problems with holes or thin spots forming. I could even lift it up and stretch it. In many respects, the dough round felt more like a piece of rubber than a pizza skin. I subsequently calculated that the thickness factor (TF) for the dough was 0.032. To put that number into perspective, it is about a third of the thickness of a typical NY style pizza dough/crust. It’s even quite a bit thinner than pftaylor’s Raquel pizza dough, which is thinner than most.

After putting the dough round into the cutter pan, I dressed it simply with a pureed Italian tomato sauce, provolone and mozzarella cheeses, and pepperoni slices. I baked the pizza at about 450 degrees F for about 15 minutes (on the middle oven rack position). The finished pizza was very good. Even before sampling the pizza, I had assumed that the crust would be soft and chewy because of the large amount of oils in the dough, and it was. By contrast, the rim was crunchy and a bit cracker-like, which appealed to me because I like contrasts in pizzas, whether it is in the crust or in the toppings. After finishing off the entire pizza, it occurred to me that it would be perfect for those on low-carb diets, although it might be prudent to eat fewer slices than I did. I calculated that the 4.95 ounces of dough included only 3 ounces of all-purpose flour. The rest of the dough and pizza was primarily fats and protein.

What is really neat about Buzz’s deep-dish recipe is that it is versatile. It can be used to make deep-dish pizzas with rather thick, biscuit-like crusts and it can be used to make extremely thin thin-crust pizzas. In either case, the dough handles remarkably well. And it holds up well to long periods of refrigeration. The dough for today’s pizza was almost 3 days old and I suspect it could have held out even longer under refrigeration. And one of the best things about Buzz’s recipe is that it uses all-purpose flour.

In due course, once the baker’s percents for the dough I have been making have been established to my satisfaction, it should be possible to establish the amounts of the ingredients to use for making only the thin-crust version of Buzz’s basic dough recipe. 

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter

Offline buzz

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Thanks for the compliment--that thin crust is a good-looker, too! I think this recipe rolls out so well because of all the oil--when I let it rise for about 8 hours at room temperature, it makes a beautiful piece of pliable dough!

I still want to experiment with different oil amounts, because I'm still getting a "burnt" oily taste with higher oil levels (even though it's not burnt).


 

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