Author Topic: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette  (Read 3958 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2011, 10:16:31 AM »
Thank you very much Martin for posting this.  The more information the better.  I too have thought about the reason for the addition of rice flour.  I can definitely see rice flour adding the crispness/crunchiness to the thin crust.   In the YT video I posted, Mr. Hong doesn't use it, but you can see that his bread did lack a certain level of crispiness to the crust.

I don't have these French flours but I'll do some reading and try to come up with a comparable blend of flours.  I'm a bit surprised by the addition of baking powder but can understand the reasoning.   Good to know that, like pizza, there are many different ways to make this bread.  Maybe I can come up with a good recipe and method between everything that's out there.

I will give this recipe a try as soon as I figure out what to use for flour.  Thanks again!

Chau
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 02:17:47 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline bakeshack

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2011, 12:57:16 AM »
Here are some pictures of the baguette I made last night.  I was quite happy with how the crust turned out.  It was shattering and paper thin with a good crisp to it while the crumb was kept very soft. 

The dough was made with Giusto's Artisan Unbleached Flour at 65% hydration.  The sugar, yeast, salt and shortening were added at 2% baker's percentage each.  Total mixing time was 10 mins at speed 2 in my KA mixer.  Bulk ferment for 1.5 hours, divided, shaped, and proofed for another 1 hour.  Baked at 375F for 20 mins.  I did not use steam but I sprayed the loaves 3x with a slurry of cornstarch and water (1:5 ratio) throughout the final rise.  I think this helped produce the thin shattering crust.  It still needs some work but I feel this is about 90% there.


Marlon


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2011, 02:17:31 AM »
Nice job Marlon, the crumb does look soft.  Can you tell me where you got the idea for the cornstarch slurry and what the purpose of it is?  Does it absorb moisture from the crust?  

Martin - here's a quick update concerning rice flour.   I picked up a bag of glutinous rice flour from the asian market.  It is ground really fine, almost like tapioca starch or talcum powder.   For yesterday's bake, I tried 20% Rice Flour using the same formula I had success with earlier.  I also upped the hydration by 4% to see if I can get a more open crumb.

The result was quite surprising.  The crust was exceedlingly crispy and crunchy and yet still thin which I did like, but the crumb was on the gummy side.  I even split one baguette and baked it longer to bake out the extra moisture, but the gumminess remained, especially after the bread is chewed in the mouth.  I attributed both the overly crispiness of the crust and the gumminess of the crumb to the rice flour.

Tonight's bake, I decreased the rice flour to 5% and used 1/2 BF and 1/2 HG.  The hydration was around 72%.  These turned out really nice.  The crust was definitely crispier than my first successful baguette last week.  Though the crumb was nice and soft, I did notice that hint of gumminess which I attribute to the glutinous rice flour.  It makes sense, because cooked rice definitely has that similar gummy texture.  It was either the rice flour or I have to decrease my hydration some more.  

Though I like the crispiness, I don't think I like even a hint of gumminess.  So if places are using rice flour, I'm not sure how they are using it and still avoiding that texture.  For my next attempt, I will leave out the rice flour.

These baguettes made for some nice sandwiches tonight.  I had some leftover roast pork from the weekend and I was in HOG heaven!  ;D

Here's the video of tonight's baguette.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 02:24:31 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2011, 03:08:24 AM »
Hey Chau and Marlon,
You guys could definitely contest here. I am following your tries with great interests.
Looks so mouth watering.

Chau, the glutinous rice will be making a kind of jelly texture. it is used also for deserts which need a nice gumminess. have you looked for other rice flour or is the glutinous one the only accessible ?

Keep it going guys !
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2011, 03:14:46 AM »
The pork looks great , too. heo Quay i guess it is called here and often found on banh mi. What i also really like is dried pork floss together with hot green chilli. Melted butter can also give it a sinfully good aroma.

Now you made me hungry, but i have an exceptional 3days cold ferment balled up and ready to be made right after my vn lessons tonite  ;D
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline bakeshack

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2011, 05:40:24 AM »
Thanks Martin!

Chau, the slurry idea came from the process of brushing or spraying the loaves with water before placing them in the oven (based on most recipes I've encountered for Vietnamese baguettes).  I figured that if I try adding some type of starch in the water instead of just plain water (IMO, plain water alone makes the crust a little "gummy"), it will produce a more crisp crust that shatters when sliced or pressed.  I will play around with it more with my succeeding bakes and let you guys know if it is directly affecting the crust's crispness.

Marlon


Offline mnjesse

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2011, 08:58:40 AM »
Those baguettes look great in the video. How many grams per baguette?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2011, 10:35:42 AM »
Those baguettes look great in the video. How many grams per baguette?

Thanks Mnjesse.  They started out as 145gm prebake.  Post bake, they are 120gm, and about 117gm once cooled.

Mnjesse, thanks for posting the link in reply #4.  I now use a double or triple rising because of that recipe.  I toasted one for a breakfast sandwich this morning and it was great.

Chau
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:45:44 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2011, 10:33:22 PM »
Chau, the glutinous rice will be making a kind of jelly texture. it is used also for deserts which need a nice gumminess. have you looked for other rice flour or is the glutinous one the only accessible ?

Martin, when I last looked at the Asian market, they carry about 4-5 different brands of rice flour.  They all were all similar in packaging in that all were packaged in a clear plastic bag, with different asian texts printed on the bags.  Different brands using different color of texts on clear bags.  All had the same look and feel as far as texture goes.   Most just had the words rice flour on the bag, except this one, which said glutinous rice flour.  I would be shock if it there was 2 different kinds.  As far as I know it's all one in the same.  Maybe your wife knows and can tell us.  I'll ask my mom next time I see her as well.   If there is 2 kinds and I bought the wrong one, then i'll give the other a try and report back.  As it is, there is no doubt some baguette makers are cutting some rice flour in, but it probably isn't absolutely necessary either.  If this is the case, for my own preference, I am inclined NOT to use it because of the unique texture it imparts.  I was glad to give it a try though as every attempt teaches me a bit more, good or bad.

Chau


Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2011, 02:17:15 AM »
Pm

Hallo Chau,
Well, i am afraid my wife will not be of so much help for us, cause she likes to eat but is not into cooking nor baking. no wonder, since everywhere here you can get inexpensive and delicious food and also at home our house helper will do the cooking action or me ;-)

anyways, I was just wondering abt gloutinous rice flour, because it is used for desert, mainly through the gelatine like properties.
in wikipedia it confirms this and the rice flour seems to have no gluten, so actually could have an adverse effect on the crispiness due to its jellyish and waxy texture (once mixed with water). However, when baked it could also harden in my opinion on the outside but inside with moisture potentially gummy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_flour

Mochiko (sweet rice flour) is made from sweet rice, also known as glutinous rice. Despite its name, this rice has no gluten. It is called mifen (Chinese: 米粉; pinyin: mǐ fěn) in Chinese, galapong in Ilokano/Filipino and pirinÁ unu in Turkish. The flour is principally starch, plus a small amount of protein. The starch is waxy and makes an excellent gel.

Just my two cents and again, this is pure theory ;-(
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2011, 03:53:54 AM »
... and now to something completely different  :chef:
Today my attempt to cook Cao Lau a special noodle dish from the old vietnamese trading town of Hoi An.
Not only is Hoi An in my personal opinion the city with the most beautiful beach in Vietnam and a cute little town with cultural heritage but it also boasts great food.

This is my first attempt to replicate this delicious noodle dish with char siu style roasted pork, chewy noodles, pork broth and lots of herbs and salad. Finished with rice croutons or lean pork skin deep fried. I love the chewiness of the noodles with the fresh herbs and the sweet bbq taste of the pork. Some crispiness is added with those croutons, I used corn chips which tastes similar. There is a broth at the bottom, which make it not like a soup, but very moist.
My attempt was not too bad, though still a bit far away from the real thing. Next week i will head to Hoi An for Teambuilding and will dig into local food there and eventually take 10kg of the special Hoi An noodles home.

Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2011, 02:09:40 AM »
Martin, you are so lucky to have access to all that wonderful fresh Vietnamese food.  I bet you've had so many of their foods that I haven't even heard about.  Nice job on your pork noodle soup.

Well I'm pleased to report that I have been able to acheive the Vietnamese Baguette.  This is the bread that I have been dreaming of making for a long time, with no idea if it was even possible to achieve in the home oven or not.  This is also the bread that got me into making pizza so I could learn more about dough, fermentation, and baking.  

Tonight's loaves were near perfect.  The only thing I could improve upon with these loaves (for now) is to score them a bit better.  It's a learning process, and next time I'm sure I'll improve on my scoring technique.  But for now, I am more than pleased with the results.  

Here is a video I shot of these baguettes



A couple of pics...
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 02:32:10 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2011, 07:04:29 AM »
CONGRATS ! And i can confirm the look is spot on. just wonderful
Your persistance paid off one more time, it must be a great satisfaction.
i guess your wife knows, that here it will not end.

What's your next try... ;D ?
Make the better coca cola than coca cola ? I know you can do it.

What i will try soon is lye pretzels in a bavarian style with crispy outside and moist inside (this pattern repeats, isn't it ?). This will be my first entry into bread baking, but i need to fin the lye here first.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15996.0.html#lastPost

so to local food i have great access here. I especially like the freshness of the vietnamese food, but one need to know what to eat and where to go. in the supermarket i cant get all overseas food stuff. Luckily i found 00 flour and some good tomatoes and mozzarella cheese here, but the search for some specific things turn out to be endless, e.g. To Find a scraper for my doughballs, find a pizza stone or anything special (like a banh mi recipe) is difficult, because of the undeveloped retail structure.

Have you been to Vietnam or any plans ?
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline mnjesse

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2011, 03:09:50 PM »
Chau,
Maybe I missed it, but what are the baker's percentages for your baguettes? I noticed that you said 72% hydration and 165 g/baguette, but I couldn't find the rest of your recipe. I really want to try these next week. Thanks

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2011, 03:21:35 PM »
Mnjesse, I haven't posted it yet but will later tonight.  You can make it with HG flour or a blend of HG/BF. 
I have learned that technique makes a huge difference when making these so it may take a bit of practice.  I have been making them almost everyday for the pass few weeks tweaking the method and recipe as I go along with multiple failures.   Just keep that in mind if they don't work out the first time you try them.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2011, 03:44:30 PM »
Here's how I made the above baguettes.  I'm still tweaking things so this isn't the final recipe.  Also I'm interested in re-trying these with sourdough starter now that I am getting better at making baguettes.

I usually make 3 baguettes with a starting weight of around 145-150gm each.  Post bake they are about 120gm, and around 118 after they cool down.

F 100% 50/50 BF/HG.  If using 100% HG flour adjust hydration up to 72-73%
w 67%
IDY 1%
salt 1% (adjust to taste up to 2%)
brown sugar 1%
vinegar 1%
oil 0.5%

-Dissolve IDY in water, and mix equal amounts of flour to make a poolish.  Cover and rest at RT until doubled to triple.  Use before it collapses though.
-add remaining ingredients except the oil, and mix until the dough is well developed, about 4-5min in a KA mixer on speed 2, or Bosch for about 6min on speed 1.
-add oil at the very end of the mixing period.
-coat hands in oil, ball the dough up, cover and rest until dough has doubled or a bit more.
-remove and reball, this will degass the dough a bit.  Rest the dough for just a few minutes and divided into 150gm portions.
-reball each piece, degassing the big bubbles.
-cover and allow to rest about 10min for the balls to relax.
-flatten each ball with palm, and stretch open as if opening a pizza dough but not that thin.  You want a disk that is about 1/2" thick or so.
-roll it tightly into a cylindrical shape or shape using traditional baguette shaping techniques.
-roll each log out to desired length and place into a baguette pan seam side down.  You may also proof using a baker's couche/linen.
-coat hands with oil and gently pat the tops of the loaves.  This will help them stay moist and prevent drying and sticking.
-cover with another pan, lid, or plastic sheet.  Proof until loaves double.
-Score and load into a hot oven.   Lots of different methods for steaming and baking bread and they all seem to work well.
-bake about 20-25m until desired browness.
*yeasted bread in general should finish their expansion during the bake.  When tapped, the baked loaves should have a hollow sound. Bread should feel relatively light in hand compared to the relative volume of the loaf.

I have also noted that properly made bread will sing as they cool.  It's not an absolute necessity for good bread but I always get it with the great loaves.

Practice, practice, practice.  This bread is possible to do in a home setting.  Not easy, but possible.

Good luck,
Chau
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 11:56:05 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2011, 01:06:28 AM »
Chau, where did the vinegar come from and why? 
 
P.S. I love vinegar. :chef:
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2011, 01:51:59 AM »
Chau, where did the vinegar come from and why?  
 
P.S. I love vinegar. :chef:

Gene, I made a quick post about dough enhancers in reply #39, page 2 of this thread.  There is an interesting YT video that explains the use of vinegar in bread making as a dough enhancer.  My previous attempts without it were largely failures with the crumb being too dense.  I got a much lighter crumb after I added the vinegar, but it was also a new formula and method.

Now that I have a consistent routine and result concerning this bread, I'll leave it out next time and see if there is a difference or not.  Btw, at 1% the vinegar is undetectable in the finished bread.

Chau


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2011, 02:13:10 AM »
CONGRATS ! And i can confirm the look is spot on. just wonderful
Your persistance paid off one more time, it must be a great satisfaction.
i guess your wife knows, that here it will not end.

What's your next try... ;D ?
Make the better coca cola than coca cola ? I know you can do it.

What i will try soon is lye pretzels in a bavarian style with crispy outside and moist inside (this pattern repeats, isn't it ?). This will be my first entry into bread baking, but i need to fin the lye here first.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15996.0.html#lastPost

so to local food i have great access here. I especially like the freshness of the vietnamese food, but one need to know what to eat and where to go. in the supermarket i cant get all overseas food stuff. Luckily i found 00 flour and some good tomatoes and mozzarella cheese here, but the search for some specific things turn out to be endless, e.g. To Find a scraper for my doughballs, find a pizza stone or anything special (like a banh mi recipe) is difficult, because of the undeveloped retail structure.

Have you been to Vietnam or any plans ?

Thank you Martin, it is very satisfying indeed to struggle with repeated failures and then achieve the goal.  I truely did not know and did not think I could do it. 

I always joke saying that I will quite experimenting if I can achieve _________.  The only problem is that when I learn a bit more, I get new ideas to apply towards other projects.

I completely understand what you mean when you say you have to know where to get the best foods in Vietnam.   Unfortunately I haven't been back since I left as a child.  My dad and brother have visited years ago and are interested in going back one more time.  I hope to go with them in the next 5 years or so.

Thanks again for your help.
Chau

scott123

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2011, 08:23:27 AM »
This is a little late, but I'm impressed.  Even though these aren't traditionally what I'd call mass produced, you're still talking about a big bakery kind of mentality and when you get into that realm, reverse engineering becomes especially difficult. Making a Tartine loaf using the cookbook is impressive, but, this, to me, is really something to be proud of.

I'm curious, how did you approach the steam?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2011, 05:11:44 PM »
Thanks Scott.  In my first successful bake, I baked the loaves on a baguette form on a hot stone and dumped about 1/2 cup of hot water into a pan with lava rocks.   See pic 1.

The latest baguettes were steamed in a covered pan.  See Pics 2 and 3.   This is a combine method of using a moist wash cloth in a pan as Chad mentions in his Tartine book for steaming and my method of covering bread with a SS bowl.   I decided on this method to allow for the slow release of steam and also to trap the steam with the cover.  It seems to work well, but so does dumping water into the oven.

Steaming the oven/bread is important but I feel it is only 2nd to having the proper dough.  Without the right dough, the steaming method would not make a difference.   
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 05:31:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

scott123

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2011, 05:33:00 PM »
Chau, thanks for the explanation and pictures.  You've been acting like home oven steam approaches generally work, but, in my experience, the generally don't.  I think the two methods you're using are especially effective. I'm not running out to make french bread, but if I was, I would definitely use one of these two methods.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2011, 05:55:55 PM »
Scott, it's not that I think any steaming approach will work.  I'll take it a step further by saying I think it may not even be necessary.  :o  Okay maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but steaming the oven may not be as important as we deem it to be.  Again, I think I may have had my focus in the wrong place(s).

First it was, well if I want to make "French" bread, then I need French flours, T55/65 what have you.  Then it was maybe I'm not getting the results b/c I don't have the right oven that injects steam at specific intervals or time.  Meanwhile, not giving enough attention to the dough condition and fermentation.  It think that by far is much more important than steaming.  Steaming does play a role, but that's just it, how much of a role and to what extent?

What is steaming anyway and why do we do it?  It keeps the skin of the bread moist allowing the bread to finish rising and expanding.  But so does proper proofing and scoring.  And so does having sufficient heat, and sufficient yeast activity, and gluten strength, proper hydration, and ... who knows what else.   ::)

I baked up some yeasted rolls yesterday at 425F that rose beautifully in the oven without any added steam.  If that is possible, then maybe it's possible to make these baguettes without steaming the oven at all.  ???
So the next time I make these baguettes, I'll simply mist them prior to loading them into a dry oven.

The other trick is to keep in mind is perhaps load them on a hot stone but not have the oven actively running or even turn down the dialed temp to 400F or so.  Giving the baguettes a few minutes to rise without the active heat setting the crust.


scott123

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2011, 06:03:43 PM »
Chau, steam does play a role in oven spring, and that role could very well be mitigated by other factors (such as the ones you listed), but... steam also gelatinizes the starch in the exterior of the crust, and when this starch dries out, it becomes brittle and crispy, so, texturally, you don't get the same exterior without sufficient amounts of steam.

The 'singing' of the cooling bread that you mentioned earlier- I think you can probably achieve singing without steam, but I'm 99.9% that it's a singing enhancer.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 06:05:37 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2011, 08:29:45 AM »
Nice Scott.  I think you may be right.  I do recall seeing pictures of bread without that concentrated steam, and the color of the crust looked muted without that glossy sheen.

One of our local French bakeries makes really fantastic baguettes with an impossibly light crumb with the thinnest crust ever.  But the crust coloration looks terribly muted, which I have always wondered if it was due to lack of steaming or overfermenting the dough and depleting the sugars.