Author Topic: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette  (Read 2550 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2011, 03:53:54 AM »
... and now to something completely different  :chef:
Today my attempt to cook Cao Lau a special noodle dish from the old vietnamese trading town of Hoi An.
Not only is Hoi An in my personal opinion the city with the most beautiful beach in Vietnam and a cute little town with cultural heritage but it also boasts great food.

This is my first attempt to replicate this delicious noodle dish with char siu style roasted pork, chewy noodles, pork broth and lots of herbs and salad. Finished with rice croutons or lean pork skin deep fried. I love the chewiness of the noodles with the fresh herbs and the sweet bbq taste of the pork. Some crispiness is added with those croutons, I used corn chips which tastes similar. There is a broth at the bottom, which make it not like a soup, but very moist.
My attempt was not too bad, though still a bit far away from the real thing. Next week i will head to Hoi An for Teambuilding and will dig into local food there and eventually take 10kg of the special Hoi An noodles home.

Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2011, 02:09:40 AM »
Martin, you are so lucky to have access to all that wonderful fresh Vietnamese food.  I bet you've had so many of their foods that I haven't even heard about.  Nice job on your pork noodle soup.

Well I'm pleased to report that I have been able to acheive the Vietnamese Baguette.  This is the bread that I have been dreaming of making for a long time, with no idea if it was even possible to achieve in the home oven or not.  This is also the bread that got me into making pizza so I could learn more about dough, fermentation, and baking.  

Tonight's loaves were near perfect.  The only thing I could improve upon with these loaves (for now) is to score them a bit better.  It's a learning process, and next time I'm sure I'll improve on my scoring technique.  But for now, I am more than pleased with the results.  

Here is a video I shot of these baguettes

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezcEzELnAzA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezcEzELnAzA</a>


A couple of pics...
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 02:32:10 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Martino1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 149
  • Location: Beijing, China
  • so much to learn
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2011, 07:04:29 AM »
CONGRATS ! And i can confirm the look is spot on. just wonderful
Your persistance paid off one more time, it must be a great satisfaction.
i guess your wife knows, that here it will not end.

What's your next try... ;D ?
Make the better coca cola than coca cola ? I know you can do it.

What i will try soon is lye pretzels in a bavarian style with crispy outside and moist inside (this pattern repeats, isn't it ?). This will be my first entry into bread baking, but i need to fin the lye here first.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15996.0.html#lastPost

so to local food i have great access here. I especially like the freshness of the vietnamese food, but one need to know what to eat and where to go. in the supermarket i cant get all overseas food stuff. Luckily i found 00 flour and some good tomatoes and mozzarella cheese here, but the search for some specific things turn out to be endless, e.g. To Find a scraper for my doughballs, find a pizza stone or anything special (like a banh mi recipe) is difficult, because of the undeveloped retail structure.

Have you been to Vietnam or any plans ?
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline mnjesse

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 85
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2011, 03:09:50 PM »
Chau,
Maybe I missed it, but what are the baker's percentages for your baguettes? I noticed that you said 72% hydration and 165 g/baguette, but I couldn't find the rest of your recipe. I really want to try these next week. Thanks

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2011, 03:21:35 PM »
Mnjesse, I haven't posted it yet but will later tonight.  You can make it with HG flour or a blend of HG/BF. 
I have learned that technique makes a huge difference when making these so it may take a bit of practice.  I have been making them almost everyday for the pass few weeks tweaking the method and recipe as I go along with multiple failures.   Just keep that in mind if they don't work out the first time you try them.

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2011, 03:44:30 PM »
Here's how I made the above baguettes.  I'm still tweaking things so this isn't the final recipe.  Also I'm interested in re-trying these with sourdough starter now that I am getting better at making baguettes.

I usually make 3 baguettes with a starting weight of around 145-150gm each.  Post bake they are about 120gm, and around 118 after they cool down.

F 100% 50/50 BF/HG.  If using 100% HG flour adjust hydration up to 72-73%
w 67%
IDY 1%
salt 1% (adjust to taste up to 2%)
brown sugar 1%
vinegar 1%
oil 0.5%

-Dissolve IDY in water, and mix equal amounts of flour to make a poolish.  Cover and rest at RT until doubled to triple.  Use before it collapses though.
-add remaining ingredients except the oil, and mix until the dough is well developed, about 4-5min in a KA mixer on speed 2, or Bosch for about 6min on speed 1.
-add oil at the very end of the mixing period.
-coat hands in oil, ball the dough up, cover and rest until dough has doubled or a bit more.
-remove and reball, this will degass the dough a bit.  Rest the dough for just a few minutes and divided into 150gm portions.
-reball each piece, degassing the big bubbles.
-cover and allow to rest about 10min for the balls to relax.
-flatten each ball with palm, and stretch open as if opening a pizza dough but not that thin.  You want a disk that is about 1/2" thick or so.
-roll it tightly into a cylindrical shape or shape using traditional baguette shaping techniques.
-roll each log out to desired length and place into a baguette pan seam side down.  You may also proof using a baker's couche/linen.
-coat hands with oil and gently pat the tops of the loaves.  This will help them stay moist and prevent drying and sticking.
-cover with another pan, lid, or plastic sheet.  Proof until loaves double.
-Score and load into a hot oven.   Lots of different methods for steaming and baking bread and they all seem to work well.
-bake about 20-25m until desired browness.
*yeasted bread in general should finish their expansion during the bake.  When tapped, the baked loaves should have a hollow sound. Bread should feel relatively light in hand compared to the relative volume of the loaf.

I have also noted that properly made bread will sing as they cool.  It's not an absolute necessity for good bread but I always get it with the great loaves.

Practice, practice, practice.  This bread is possible to do in a home setting.  Not easy, but possible.

Good luck,
Chau
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 11:56:05 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jet_deck

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3041
  • Location: Between Houston and Mexico
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2011, 01:06:28 AM »
Chau, where did the vinegar come from and why? 
 
P.S. I love vinegar. :chef:
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2011, 01:51:59 AM »
Chau, where did the vinegar come from and why?  
 
P.S. I love vinegar. :chef:

Gene, I made a quick post about dough enhancers in reply #39, page 2 of this thread.  There is an interesting YT video that explains the use of vinegar in bread making as a dough enhancer.  My previous attempts without it were largely failures with the crumb being too dense.  I got a much lighter crumb after I added the vinegar, but it was also a new formula and method.

Now that I have a consistent routine and result concerning this bread, I'll leave it out next time and see if there is a difference or not.  Btw, at 1% the vinegar is undetectable in the finished bread.

Chau


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2011, 02:13:10 AM »
CONGRATS ! And i can confirm the look is spot on. just wonderful
Your persistance paid off one more time, it must be a great satisfaction.
i guess your wife knows, that here it will not end.

What's your next try... ;D ?
Make the better coca cola than coca cola ? I know you can do it.

What i will try soon is lye pretzels in a bavarian style with crispy outside and moist inside (this pattern repeats, isn't it ?). This will be my first entry into bread baking, but i need to fin the lye here first.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15996.0.html#lastPost

so to local food i have great access here. I especially like the freshness of the vietnamese food, but one need to know what to eat and where to go. in the supermarket i cant get all overseas food stuff. Luckily i found 00 flour and some good tomatoes and mozzarella cheese here, but the search for some specific things turn out to be endless, e.g. To Find a scraper for my doughballs, find a pizza stone or anything special (like a banh mi recipe) is difficult, because of the undeveloped retail structure.

Have you been to Vietnam or any plans ?


Thank you Martin, it is very satisfying indeed to struggle with repeated failures and then achieve the goal.  I truely did not know and did not think I could do it. 

I always joke saying that I will quite experimenting if I can achieve _________.  The only problem is that when I learn a bit more, I get new ideas to apply towards other projects.

I completely understand what you mean when you say you have to know where to get the best foods in Vietnam.   Unfortunately I haven't been back since I left as a child.  My dad and brother have visited years ago and are interested in going back one more time.  I hope to go with them in the next 5 years or so.

Thanks again for your help.
Chau

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2011, 08:23:27 AM »
This is a little late, but I'm impressed.  Even though these aren't traditionally what I'd call mass produced, you're still talking about a big bakery kind of mentality and when you get into that realm, reverse engineering becomes especially difficult. Making a Tartine loaf using the cookbook is impressive, but, this, to me, is really something to be proud of.

I'm curious, how did you approach the steam?


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2011, 05:11:44 PM »
Thanks Scott.  In my first successful bake, I baked the loaves on a baguette form on a hot stone and dumped about 1/2 cup of hot water into a pan with lava rocks.   See pic 1.

The latest baguettes were steamed in a covered pan.  See Pics 2 and 3.   This is a combine method of using a moist wash cloth in a pan as Chad mentions in his Tartine book for steaming and my method of covering bread with a SS bowl.   I decided on this method to allow for the slow release of steam and also to trap the steam with the cover.  It seems to work well, but so does dumping water into the oven.

Steaming the oven/bread is important but I feel it is only 2nd to having the proper dough.  Without the right dough, the steaming method would not make a difference.   
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 05:31:21 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2011, 05:33:00 PM »
Chau, thanks for the explanation and pictures.  You've been acting like home oven steam approaches generally work, but, in my experience, the generally don't.  I think the two methods you're using are especially effective. I'm not running out to make french bread, but if I was, I would definitely use one of these two methods.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2011, 05:55:55 PM »
Scott, it's not that I think any steaming approach will work.  I'll take it a step further by saying I think it may not even be necessary.  :o  Okay maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but steaming the oven may not be as important as we deem it to be.  Again, I think I may have had my focus in the wrong place(s).

First it was, well if I want to make "French" bread, then I need French flours, T55/65 what have you.  Then it was maybe I'm not getting the results b/c I don't have the right oven that injects steam at specific intervals or time.  Meanwhile, not giving enough attention to the dough condition and fermentation.  It think that by far is much more important than steaming.  Steaming does play a role, but that's just it, how much of a role and to what extent?

What is steaming anyway and why do we do it?  It keeps the skin of the bread moist allowing the bread to finish rising and expanding.  But so does proper proofing and scoring.  And so does having sufficient heat, and sufficient yeast activity, and gluten strength, proper hydration, and ... who knows what else.   ::)

I baked up some yeasted rolls yesterday at 425F that rose beautifully in the oven without any added steam.  If that is possible, then maybe it's possible to make these baguettes without steaming the oven at all.  ???
So the next time I make these baguettes, I'll simply mist them prior to loading them into a dry oven.

The other trick is to keep in mind is perhaps load them on a hot stone but not have the oven actively running or even turn down the dialed temp to 400F or so.  Giving the baguettes a few minutes to rise without the active heat setting the crust.


Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2011, 06:03:43 PM »
Chau, steam does play a role in oven spring, and that role could very well be mitigated by other factors (such as the ones you listed), but... steam also gelatinizes the starch in the exterior of the crust, and when this starch dries out, it becomes brittle and crispy, so, texturally, you don't get the same exterior without sufficient amounts of steam.

The 'singing' of the cooling bread that you mentioned earlier- I think you can probably achieve singing without steam, but I'm 99.9% that it's a singing enhancer.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 06:05:37 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2011, 08:29:45 AM »
Nice Scott.  I think you may be right.  I do recall seeing pictures of bread without that concentrated steam, and the color of the crust looked muted without that glossy sheen.

One of our local French bakeries makes really fantastic baguettes with an impossibly light crumb with the thinnest crust ever.  But the crust coloration looks terribly muted, which I have always wondered if it was due to lack of steaming or overfermenting the dough and depleting the sugars.

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2011, 09:53:26 AM »
Glossy, good choice of words. Even though I'm not that into GB, I've actually been contemplating a glossy brittle pizza crust.  I don't think pizza spends enough time in the oven, though, for that much starch gelatinization to occur.

Hmmm... I just thought of making some sort of wet flour porridge and painting that on crust.  I know people do water and egg washes, but a precooked wet flour 'glue' might produce something glossy and crackly like the crust on a good baguette.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2011, 10:36:07 PM »
Scott, I can't see you veering that far from the path by painting your crust with wet batter.   :-D  Kidding aside, there's got to be an easier way of achieving a crackly thin veneer of a pizza crust.  I'm really interested in such a project.

Well I did the no steam test today and my suspicions about steam not being necessary was wrong.  Steam is important, really important.  I made up a batch VN baguettes, painted them with a salt water solution, and loaded them into a dry oven preheated to 500F.

I turned the oven temp dial down to 400F prior to loading the bread so the oven wouldn't be actively baking the bread from the upperside.   The oven didn't turn back on for another 12 minutes after loading the bread.   I figured this would stall the crust from forming too quickly allowing  the bread to rise.  The loaves did rise a bit but the crust set anyways and the loaves ended up blowing out the sides.  The crumb was soft was not light as usual b/c the loaves didn't rise properly or maximally.

Their color was also muted as I thought would happen.  After the cool down, the crust was thin and crackly but less so than expected/normal.  So it sounds and looks like there is definitely geltanization and carmelization from the effects of steaming.  

Chau
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:39:33 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6968
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2011, 08:12:36 PM »
Chau, thank you for putting the steam theory to the test.

I don't think it changes any of your findings, but you might have skewed your results a tiny bit by altering the slash technique.  There's nothing wrong with the multiple slashes, but I think it would help if you cut a bit deeper next time. Those side blowouts are classical symptoms of underslashed dough.

Besides growing up with an amazing pizzeria, I also lived within walking distance of one of the best Italian bakeries in the world.  I'm not sure if this specific crumb would work for pizza, but for bread it was sublime.  Huge voids, moist, squishy crumb, with a golden brown glossy veneered wispy crust that would crackle when you pressed it. A lot of elements were in play (old country bread knowledge and superior flour- bromated 12ish percent), but I see this as the poster child for what steam is capable of. I've never seen a home baker make a crust this glossy and it's always been my theory that it's because there's never been a home oven that produces the quantity of steam that these ancient, turn of the century ovens produce.

I'd show you a photo, but, the owners sold the bakery about 15 years ago, and while they sold the recipe as well, it's never been the same.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 08:21:27 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6984
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2011, 11:08:26 PM »
Scott, you are right that I do need to slash deeper.  I've been thinking about that and I have seen my early tartine loaves blowout from the sides due to underslashing or shaping and baking with a very short proof time.  

In the above example, it was just the lack of steam and the crust setting too early.  The formula for that batch, hydration speaking, was very similar to previous batches that I made with the same slashing technique but no blowing out the sides due to proper steaming.   Here are some recent loaves with the same scoring technique and steam.  They usually expand and fill out the score marks in the loaves but don't blow out the sides.  

You can see another example of this same shallow scoring in the YT video in reply #61 above.  2 of the 3 loaves have this same score depth with steaming.

Occassionally, I'll see the loaves cracking a bit along the score marks in my Tartine loaves, yet another indication of improper scoring or not scoring deep enough.  

Chau
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 11:11:39 PM by Jackie Tran »

parallei

  • Guest
Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2011, 11:58:08 PM »
Nice job Chau!  I'm going to give your recipe a try, that's for sure.

There is a new Vietnamese sandwich joint that has opened here in Denver. I hope to give it a try soon.