Author Topic: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past  (Read 3054 times)

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Offline chickenparm

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A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« on: November 25, 2011, 12:31:15 AM »
I have not posted in a while,and wanted to tell you all about my recent pie.I have tried many different ways getting shorter bake times,using the broiler,etc. since I have been here.Had many good and bad experiments.

This time around,I NAILED another pie that was so identical to the slice shops I used to eat at,back in the '80's and early '90's in NY.I made an 18 inch pie and consumed 4 big slices before I took any pictures.It was soooo good.The next day for lunch,I reheated the other slices and they tasted just as good.

The pictures cannot do it justice,this pie came closer to the slice places I used to frequent, than I ever imagined.It was sort of by accident,I didn't expect it to be this good.I do not have many good pictures,and honestly,it may look like other cheese pies I have posted before.

That said,the look,taste,smell,chew and foldable goodness that comes with a good NY style slice was total bliss.

I have one downfall,it was cooked on a 18 inch screen,on top of a 15 inch stone.I have no doubt if I had a larger stone or surface,and not need a screen,It would have even been better.

Using King Arthur Bread Flour,63% water,2% sea salt,1/2 tsp of IDY yeast,thickness factor of .08,no oil,no sugar,temps were 615 F when I put the pie in the oven,a 4 minute bake time gave me these results below.

Oven spring was decent,but I was not aiming to make the rim what it was.Most NY style places I recall do not have explosive rims or oven spring as much as they are here on the forum.






-Bill


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 12:53:43 AM »
Congrats Bill and Nice job!  So I am curious of course.  Did you do anything drastically different with your recipe or technique?  Or were you using your regular recipe and techniques and got better results?

How was this pie so much better than the rest?  Was it the texture? the flavor? The balance of it all?
Also, when did you cut out the sugar and oil and why?

BTW, the thickness factor and the cheese looks SPOT ON!

Chau
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 01:23:27 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline chickenparm

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 01:16:33 AM »
Thanks for the nice words Chau! Since I'm stuffed and very tired from today,I will answer everything tomorrow.
Heading to bed in a few minutes here.
 :)


-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 06:27:00 AM »
I have not posted in a while,and wanted to tell you all about my recent pie.I have tried many different ways getting shorter bake times,using the broiler,etc. since I have been here.Had many good and bad experiments.

This time around,I NAILED another pie that was so identical to the slice shops I used to eat at,back in the '80's and early '90's in NY.I made an 18 inch pie and consumed 4 big slices before I took any pictures.It was soooo good.The next day for lunch,I reheated the other slices and they tasted just as good.

The pictures cannot do it justice,this pie came closer to the slice places I used to frequent, than I ever imagined.It was sort of by accident,I didn't expect it to be this good.I do not have many good pictures,and honestly,it may look like other cheese pies I have posted before.

That said,the look,taste,smell,chew and foldable goodness that comes with a good NY style slice was total bliss.

I have one downfall,it was cooked on a 18 inch screen,on top of a 15 inch stone.I have no doubt if I had a larger stone or surface,and not need a screen,It would have even been better.

Using King Arthur Bread Flour,63% water,2% sea salt,1/2 tsp of IDY yeast,thickness factor of .08,no oil,no sugar,temps were 615 F when I put the pie in the oven,a 4 minute bake time gave me these results below.

Oven spring was decent,but I was not aiming to make the rim what it was.Most NY style places I recall do not have explosive rims or oven spring as much as they are here on the forum.


Bill,

I am glad you achieved your NY style pie like you remembered from NY!  ;D Sure looks like a real NY pie. Your cheese looks like it melted really well too. I also would be interested in hearing what you did differently from before.

Congrats!  :chef:

Norma
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 08:04:54 AM »
Bill, if you care to share....
I am curious about the sauce.  What is it composed of?
The pizza looks very good, glad that you had great results.
Thanks in advance.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2011, 11:36:12 AM »
Looks like the real deal CP, congrats!  In fact, looks just like website logo!

scott123

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2011, 05:18:34 PM »
Bill, this is pretty much a dead ringer of the pizzas of my youth.  The only difference is, as you mentioned, I think mine had a bit more char on the undercrust, because it was baked on the stone hearth.

If I could think of one candidate in the forum that was the readiest for steel plate, it would be you. With your higher than normal oven temp, you could probably even get away with 3/8" thick steel which would be both lighter and cheaper than the 1/2" steel most members are purchasing.

Offline sum1else

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2011, 07:25:08 PM »
That's identical to the slices they sell underneath my apartment. Awesome job.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2011, 11:41:25 PM »
Thanks for the nice replies everyone.I hope this reply makes it tonight.I have tried to post a few times and the internet is freezing up.Nothing will load,not even my other pages or websites I am logged into.

I keep losing the reply I typed earlier.Ugh,I do not want to type it all out again just yet.

I am thinking just to use the word pad to type and save it,then copy and paste here if it allows it.

To be continued...



-Bill

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2011, 09:48:29 AM »
Yes, very authentic looking, great work. Gas oven to hit that 615 I assume?

I also agree on the bigger stone over the screen, but achieving uniformity of the .08 on the screen is far easier, and presence wise it's a prettier pie. Rim looks a bit blond, but your rise and 'explosiveness' is good considering it's a screen pie.

"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1


Offline budgetpizza

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 02:31:17 PM »
That is a phenomenal pie.
I'm very curious about your process, from mixing to fermentation time because this is exactly the type of pizza I'm after.
Keep it up!

Pizza01

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 04:11:10 PM »
great looking pizza bill. god i would love to have 3 slices from this pizza right now.
i also very curious to hear about the sauce if you care to share.
i love the thickness it looks perfect.

Offline Aaron

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2011, 12:03:16 PM »
Looks very good,your gonna have to spill the beans,enquiring minds want to know.
Aaron

Offline hammettjr

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 06:15:52 PM »
Looks very good,your gonna have to spill the beans,enquiring minds want to know.
Aaron
I agree, looks great Bill...And you're keeping us all in suspense!


Offline chickenparm

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2011, 08:51:20 PM »
Hi folks,sorry it took so long.Been having trouble with the web browsers but it seems to have fixed itself.

I have to say the pie I made more or less fell into place,came together very well or better than I had anticipated.

However,to share what I did and learned,the main key was the Thickness factor and bake time/temp of the oven.The reason I chose not to use sugar or oil,I wanted to try to keep this pie very SIMPLE using nothing but the basics,to see how the pie would turn out without them.(mainly the color of the rim and cooking rise)

See,for a long time,I kept overcooking the pies,I made them too well done,but hey,I love it that way!
 ;)

But I was not always getting the texture,soft chew, or results, that reminded me of typical good slice shops that were everywhere when I was a kid/teen.This isn't my best pie by any means,but it hit home to what I was trying to make and was often hit and miss.

I also wanted to see if baking at 4 minutes,using NO broiler,would still cook the pie in 4 minutes.It did,I was so happy to see no doughy gumline or undercooked dough anywhere.It was just right.I did make a common mistake in the past,thinking if the crust was not brown enough,or golden brown,it was not finished,and would taste like it was under cooked.

This was NOT the case.Even being light in color,the pie was done,and that 4 minute bake time was perfect for the cheese melting as well.I have noticed anything after 5 minutes,the cheese on my pies would break down alot more.The pictures show it best.

It is possible that a pie with a thicker bottom would not be done this soon and have a gumline.So what happens is the cheese is breaking down before the crust is even done cooking.This has happened to me a few times in the past.

Forget the color of the rim for a bit,when making a NY style pie,focus on the TF and bake time,try to keep it under 5 minutes,if you can get your ovens to around 600.Keep in mind,when you take a pie out a little early,its still going to cook while it cools off.Slice shops always take the pies out a bit early so they can reheat them.The pie does not have to be golden brown either to taste good either.

Its really up to you how you prefer your pies.I prefer mine more well done,but as for this experiment,It played out well for me.I have a good feeling I can duplicate this everytime now.

I will say again,the bottom did not have enough char.I need a steel plate or a larger stone,as Scott keeps pointing out.The bottom was missing the full bake/crisp a stone bake gives ya.My oven is around 15 years old,A whirlpool super capacity electric oven,number 465.It can hold 18 inch screens with ease.Its old but works very well.It heats up very fast and can get as hot as 620+ F with the knobs turn past 550 at times.

I do need a new pizza cutter though...have you noticed the uneven,bad cut in the slices? The rivet holding the blade is worn,so the darn thing wobbles sideways when slicing.

:-D

I'm going to write a little more about the dough and sauce making in a few.I forgot to focus on that and I'm rambling too much here.Don't want to make this a novel. Sorry it took so long to write back and thank you all for the nice words and comments.
 :)






« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 08:56:12 PM by chickenparm »
-Bill

Offline chickenparm

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2011, 11:44:56 PM »
Wanted to finish adding...

Dough was made in my Oster Bread machine.The machine mixes for 5 minutes,then 5 minute rest,then kneaded for 20 minutes.Total of 30 minutes in the machine.

When done,Balled the dough,and put away into a covered,yet lightly oiled plastic bowl,into the fridge for 2 day cold rise.After fridge rise,Took bowl out with cover and let it room rise for 2 hours next to the stove.Leave the cover or lid on,or the dough will form a hard skin from the air or heat from the room.

Dough nearly double its size and was borderline over extensible.It was so easy to stretch and could have made a 20+ inch pie.I tend to use the fridge dough within 30 minutes to an hour after a fridge rise,but had other things to take care of at home,so it sat for 2 hours.

The sauce I made,not a secret sauce or anything like that.I used a can of 28 ounce crushed tomatoes for a sauce.I did press 2 small cloves of garlic and cooked the garlic in a little olive oil until somewhat golden.I then added that garlic to the crushed tomatoes.Mix well.

If no fresh garlic,You can use a TSP of garlic powder,but it will not have the flavor power of fresh garlic cooked in oil.Mix well.Salt to taste if your can of crushed tomatoes seems like it needs salt.I usually never add any extra salt,the cans tend to have enough for me.Use the cans you prefer.I use 6 in 1's ground ,or classico or walmarts crushed to make a sauce.They all work well for me and give me very similar results.

I sometimes add some fresh basil but did not have any at that time.So that was omitted.After the pie came out of the oven,I sprinkled some Oregano flakes over the cheese.

I have added oregano flakes to the sauce in the past,but I have come to prefer to add it after the pie comes out.Just enough to dust the top of the pie,no going crazy there.Up to you.

If I do not have fresh garlic to cook or add to the sauce,I will just sprinkle some garlic powder on top of the pie when it comes out as well.It works pretty good but using fresh garlic is much better.The kitchen smells like Heaven when you sautee the garlic before using.

This sauce was simple,had a incredible garlic aroma,flavor and smell,while still being very tomatoey tasting.
Using powders cannot duplicate this smell or taste.Use caution with fresh garlic,it can be very over powering if you use large cloves,cook them and add to a sauce.If the garlic taste is too strong,add some more crushed tomatoes and mix.

That said,I still have not found my perfect sauce yet,even if pictures make them look good. There is a pizza shop in NY,that has the perfect sauce I love,but I have not been able to duplicate.The Owner and Pizza maker is from Milan,Italy.If I could make duplicate his sauce,I would share it.I asked some friends in NY to try and find out some info,but it was futile.My friends could not even find out the brand of tomatoes they used.

Hope this covers everything that was asked.If I missed something and you want to know a little more,please ask.I'm still learning as I go,as many of you are.
 :)













-Bill

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2011, 12:28:40 AM »
Thanks Bill.  I was also curious about the dry spice topping, but you answered that also. Viva La NY pizza in KY!
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

scott123

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 07:12:28 AM »
I will say again,the bottom did not have enough char.I need a steel plate or a larger stone,as Scott keeps pointing out.

Have I pointed out that you need a 'larger stone?' I'm the steel plate broken record guy, not the larger stone guy  ;D

Seriously, though, with the higher temps your oven can reach, you might be able to get away with a 1" cordierite kiln shelf, but with variations in cordierite, I wouldn't take the chance, since steel is about the same price and will guarantee you the bottom crispness you're looking for. Not to mention that steel plate distributors are almost always easier to find than ceramic equipment places.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 05:41:49 PM »
Have I pointed out that you need a 'larger stone?' I'm the steel plate broken record guy, not the larger stone guy  ;D

Seriously, though, with the higher temps your oven can reach, you might be able to get away with a 1" cordierite kiln shelf, but with variations in cordierite, I wouldn't take the chance, since steel is about the same price and will guarantee you the bottom crispness you're looking for. Not to mention that steel plate distributors are almost always easier to find than ceramic equipment places.
:)
I will definitely buy steel someday.I just haven't gotten around to it yet.I still have a link I believe you gave me a while back, saved in my bookmarks.
 8)




-Bill

Offline chickenparm

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Re: A 4 Minute Bake Into The Past
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 02:07:28 AM »
I made another 4 minute baked,615 degrees F oven temps,18 inch pie,cooked on the screen,on top of my 15 inch stone tonight.This time I use Bouncer flour,not KA bread flour.Because this dough was risen for 4 hours after mixing,I did not get the crumb or oven spring like my other fridge risen doughs.Thats OK,I sort of expected it.

The dough I used tonight rose for about 4 hours.The other half is going to sit for 2 days in the fridge for a cold rise.But this half of the dough,room risen,I wanted to see if I could make a decent NY style slice pie and I was able to do it again.A 4 minute bake using my timer again.

Im ecstatic...I also made a sauce tonight that simmered for 4 hours before using on the pizza.It was really good.

I will add more info soon.Here are some pics of my 4 hour risen dough and pie.










-Bill


 

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