reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough

[fazzari]

Fazarri - are you using the same dough ingredients as your original post in this thread for all of these experimental pies?  33% preferment poolish as well?  I've never reballed my dough nor have i done a bulk fermentation before so im getting pretty excited to take my crust to the next level.  

Pete - what does the term scale mean?  When reballing the dough are we lightly flouring again?  Can this also be done with KAAP flour as well?  For some reason im liking the flavor more than the KABF.

If you look at reply #8, you will find the recipe I used for the later experiments in this thread.  Since the time that I experimented I have come to the conclusion, that for my taste, balling dough 3 to 5 hours prior to baking gives me a better crust regardless of the flour I use, or the recipe I try.  Also, now I have found that there is no secrets in regards to the mixing process...now when I mix any dough, I place everything in the bowl (except oil) and mix as Tom Lehmann advises...that is mix until flour is incorporated, then add oil, and then mix until dough is desired smoothness.

Scaling is simply weighing dough pieces to your required amounts.

John

[pythonic]

Fazzari,

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.  I have a few more questions if u dont mind.  

How long do the bulk fermentations last for?
You're keeping these in the fridge right?  
What type of container are u using for this?  
Can this be done with all purpose flour too?

[fazzari]

Fazzari,

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.  I have a few more questions if u dont mind.  

How long do the bulk fermentations last for?
You're keeping these in the fridge right?  
What type of container are u using for this?  
Can this be done with all purpose flour too?

Pythonic
My fermentations can last from 2 to 6 days in my fridge which is 39 to 40 degress.  I use glad ware, those plastic containers you can get anywhere.  I've used high gluten flour and bread flour and am sure you could use whatever you like...I would.

John

[pythonic]

When its time to ball them up are hitting with more flour?

[fazzari]

When its time to ball them up are hitting with more flour?

Nope, nothing

[Pete-zza]

Pete - what does the term scale mean?  When reballing the dough are we lightly flouring again?  Can this also be done with KAAP flour as well?  For some reason im liking the flavor more than the KABF.

pythonic,

I'm sorry for missing your post. As a Moderator, I try to look at every post to be sure they are in order. But, with almost 170 posts a day (this month), I will miss one now and again. I see that John has answered your question that was directed to me.

Peter

[scott123]

Okay, I've been playing around with re-balls a bit lately. At this point, I can't really say that re-balls give me a better crust with my particular style, but, the results have been slightly encouraging.  I'm trying to keep an open mind about it   I did learn, the hard way, that I can't reball a moderate hydration cold fermented dough (65%/12.5% protein flour), but a 67%/11% protein dough re-balled like a champ and gave me encouraging results.

So, John, I'm guessing if I want the later balling 'bump'  with a moderate hydration dough, I want to go bulk (cold?), right?  The problem that I encountered with re-balling cold dough is that I couldn't get the dough to stick to itself, so I couldn't pinch the dough shut.  Now, I was CFing with a lightly oiled container, so the little bit of oil on the dough didn't help, but I'm still thinking, even without the oil, the cold dough may not pinch shut. One of the things I like most about CF is the stable temperature of the refrigerator.  I guess I could get into bulk room temps if they gave me considerably better results, but I'd really like the ease of a cold ferment.

[fazzari]

Okay, I've been playing around with re-balls a bit lately. At this point, I can't really say that re-balls give me a better crust with my particular style, but, the results have been slightly encouraging.  I'm trying to keep an open mind about it   I did learn, the hard way, that I can't reball a moderate hydration cold fermented dough (65%/12.5% protein flour), but a 67%/11% protein dough re-balled like a champ and gave me encouraging results.

So, John, I'm guessing if I want the later balling 'bump'  with a moderate hydration dough, I want to go bulk (cold?), right?  The problem that I encountered with re-balling cold dough is that I couldn't get the dough to stick to itself, so I couldn't pinch the dough shut.  Now, I was CFing with a lightly oiled container, so the little bit of oil on the dough didn't help, but I'm still thinking, even without the oil, the cold dough may not pinch shut. One of the things I like most about CF is the stable temperature of the refrigerator.  I guess I could get into bulk room temps if they gave me considerably better results, but I'd really like the ease of a cold ferment.

Scott,
For way over a year, I've labeled what I do a "reball".  But, in reality, the hydration was so high on most of those experiments, that i could hardly call the balling of the dough after mixing a real serious "balling".  All it was basically, was scaling the dough on an oiled scale, and then very carefully smoothing it and dumping it in an oiled container (knowing the "real" balling would be done later in the process).  That is why I figured that this process would give me the same results if I bulk fermented the whole piece of dough in the fridge.

The experiments I've done with 55%hydration (14% flour), were a little more complicated to ball, but I succeeded.  All of the rest have been done with 62%hydration (14% flour), and have not had a single problem balling them.  I also use  slightly oiled containers when I scale my doughs and this doesn't seem to be a problem at all either.  All of my doughs are cold fermented Scott.

Since I've started the balling process 3 to 5 hours prior to bake, every single one of the pizzas has been pretty damned good...and I mean every single one.  I have also found that even if you ball up a dough, and then let it set in the fridge a few more days, you can very easily ball it again 3 to 5 hours prior to bake and have an outstanding pizza.  We had a pizza on friday that was 10 days old....after balling it acts likes it full of life again and is simply amazing.  My employees are simply amazed with the crust and beg me to bring more to work, so I know its not just my taste.

John

[Pizza3.14]

I finally got a chance to sit down and eat two pies that were the same with the exception of one of them being balled 3 hours prior to baking. 

I found that I did not notice too much difference in the taste.  The activity of the dough was like night and day.  The dough that was balled before baking was full of gas and then oven spring.  I enjoyed the large pockets in the crumb. 

The first pie was balled right after mixing

The second was balled 3 hours prior to baking.  Both were at 66.5% hydration. 

[fazzari]

I finally got a chance to sit down and eat two pies that were the same with the exception of one of them being balled 3 hours prior to baking. 

I found that I did not notice too much difference in the taste.  The activity of the dough was like night and day.  The dough that was balled before baking was full of gas and then oven spring.  I enjoyed the large pockets in the crumb. 

The first pie was balled right after mixing

The second was balled 3 hours prior to baking.  Both were at 66.5% hydration. 

Good job, and thank you!!
John

[rpmfla]

As I commented in your other thread (same methods....different hydration!!!), I have been very pleased with the subtle yet beneficial effect reballing has had on my pizzas. I had actually neglected doing it for a while when I was adjusting other things in my dough recipe, but when I found myself with one container of dough unused for over a week and full of large gas bubbles I thought I'd try the reball again. I reballed 24 hrs. prior to use and it resulted in a pizza dough that was lightly crisp on the surface and tender on the inside. My wife, who doesn't like the outer crust and usually leaves the "bones" for the dog (me) said "I like the crust!".

Whatever technical reason is behind it, reballing does seem to improve the texture of the crust. I'm glad I tried it!

[fazzari]

Now, try shortening the amount of time from balling to bake and see the changes.  I'm finding 3 to 5 hours is optimal for my tastes.

John

[communist]

I made my routine All Trumps 14% 63% hydration cold ferment 2 day dough, with 4 balls.  Four hours before bake time, I reballed one ball.  When it came time to spread dough to thickness factor of .07, I was able to get the first 3 balls to 16 inch circle required.  The reballed ball fought me tooth and nail.  I gave up at 14 inches.  Dough definitely more puffy, with maybe some more airy-ness.  Not sure how much is due to thicker dough.  Does anyone do reballing with really small thickness factors like .07?  Mark

[shuboyje]

I had an interesting reballing experience last night.  The nice weather is here in MI, so I rolled the WFO out of the garage and fired it a few times this week to makes sure it was roaring and ready to go for last nights pizza night.  I made a pretty standard 24hr room temperature caputo based dough at 60% hydration with 3% salt.  I used cake yeast, and upped the percentage from my usual 0.1% to 0.25% because the yeast was a bit old and I wanted a bit more active fermentation then I've gotten the last few times with this yeast.  I also balled the dough right after kneading.  I've really liked the dough I've made this way for my steel plate pizza, so I decided to see how it worked for neapolitan.  When I got home yesterday the dough was highly fermented, looked like what you see from Keste.  I decided to reball one of the dough balls for comparison and was very happy I did.  The reballed dough cooked 100% different then the others.  It began to leopard nearly the second it hit the oven, and ended up with that hyper leoparded look I've heard some call "small pox".  The rest of the pies had a nice moderate level of leoparding for comparison sake. 

[Jackie Tran]

Good to hear about your results.  I've always felt that gluten strength is one of the factors that leads to hyper leoparding or small pox.  That plus high heat, and a well fermented dough will get you there.  I call those typhoid fever pies.    Got any pictures of it?

[dmcavanagh]

Interesting. I make NY style pies and always ball right after mixing and not again. On my next pizza night I'm gonna try reballing one ball of dough and see what the results are.

[fazzari]

I had an interesting reballing experience last night.  The nice weather is here in MI, so I rolled the WFO out of the garage and fired it a few times this week to makes sure it was roaring and ready to go for last nights pizza night.  I made a pretty standard 24hr room temperature caputo based dough at 60% hydration with 3% salt.  I used cake yeast, and upped the percentage from my usual 0.1% to 0.25% because the yeast was a bit old and I wanted a bit more active fermentation then I've gotten the last few times with this yeast.  I also balled the dough right after kneading.  I've really liked the dough I've made this way for my steel plate pizza, so I decided to see how it worked for neapolitan.  When I got home yesterday the dough was highly fermented, looked like what you see from Keste.  I decided to reball one of the dough balls for comparison and was very happy I did.  The reballed dough cooked 100% different then the others.  It began to leopard nearly the second it hit the oven, and ended up with that hyper leoparded look I've heard some call "small pox".  The rest of the pies had a nice moderate level of leoparding for comparison sake. 

Jeff
Thanks for sharing your observation.  You said you were happy you reballed one dough.  Were you happy enough that you would purposely use this method the next time???  I haven't tried this with neapolitan, but I think the results are dramatic with my doughs.

John

[fazzari]

Interesting. I make NY style pies and always ball right after mixing and not again. On my next pizza night I'm gonna try reballing one ball of dough and see what the results are.

Please, please post your results with pictures if you can...along with detailed differences in your pizzas.

Thanks
John

[dmcavanagh]

Please, please post your results with pictures if you can...along with detailed differences in your pizzas.

Thanks
John

I probably won't be making pizza again until next weekend but I will try to remember to give reballing a try.