Author Topic: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough  (Read 31486 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #125 on: December 28, 2011, 07:48:59 AM »
Norma
I have had a ton of great pizza this thread.....but two stick out as being the best....one was refrigerated 48 hours and balled 8 hours prior to bake...the other was refrigerated 24 hours and balled 12 hours prior to bake....two completely different time periods, but nearly identical pizzas.   Extremely thin bottom crust (egg shell is what Mike calls it), tender, and then cloudlike as your teeth get through the bottom.  At first it was hard not to make the truly good pizzas the enemy of the couple of excellent ones.  But, when put in perspective, the goods ones are all very good....even when they cool down, the crust stays tender, with the slightest bit of chewiness...I'm also convinced that the shorter amount of time from balling to baking is the way to go...I had good luck with as long as 48 hours after balling, but the really good ones were baked in shorter amounts of time after balling.

All of these experiments have been done with ADM High Gluten Flour....ours is not bromated. 

You didn't seem too happy with your dough balls, but the bottom shot of the one sure looked good to me, in fact it looks exactly like what I was getting,

These experiments verify to me why I am such a fan of all the Reinhart tries.....I love the texture, and texture obviously comes from the timing of the balling.  Anyway Norma, it's all fun!..and good eatin' too!

John

John,

I do know you have made a ton of great pizza on this thread and I had a ton of fun watching with each experiment you did.  Thanks for telling me which two pizza stick in your mind as being the best ones.  The cloudlike, tender taste really sounds great!  I also believe the good ones were very good.  Interesting that you are also convinced that the shorter amount of time from balling to baking is the way to go.   :chef:

Thanks for telling me that you have been using ADM Gigantic flour that is unbromated. 

I wasnít happy with my dough balls and donít think I would have any luck in trying these methods for a market dough.  For someone at home, your instructions and what you have done in this thread are very informative. 

I am also a fan of the Reinhart doughs.  I know it is all fun learning anything that can be learned about dough and pizzas.  You are a true inspiration!  ;D

Norma


Offline chickenparm

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #126 on: December 29, 2011, 06:59:10 PM »
John,

I tried a method of reballing,and Im sort of surprised how much it changed a same day dough into one that had much more strength and spring.I will try a overnight reball as well.For my first experience,it was a same day dough.

Reballing,after it rose for about 6-8 hours(my best guess,I lost track of the time) in the kitchen,there was alot of gas bubbles exploding or popping during the reball process.I had to bust alot of them up or they would have grown all over the dough during the second rise.Do you pop alot of the bubbles or try not to?

After the 3 hour room rise since reballing,It grew enough to be used for a pie.

I could have let it sit out longer,but wow,the dough was stronger than I expected.I thought it was going to snap back like a rubber band,but it kept stretching to size without worry of tearing.

What did I notice most about this dough,It had alot more gas in it,and it actually helped to make a much larger rim than before.I have used this same recipe many times,and it did not make a rim this easily,due to less gas.

Ok to post a few pics later? Im lucky I have a few,not many.Had technical problems last night.
 :)





« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 08:22:05 PM by chickenparm »
-Bill

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #127 on: December 29, 2011, 10:09:49 PM »
Hey Bill
Please post pictures....and tell us about the texture...was there a change??

John

Offline chickenparm

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #128 on: December 29, 2011, 10:40:01 PM »
Hey Bill
Please post pictures....and tell us about the texture...was there a change??

John

Thanks,I will post a few pics soon!
 :)

John,I have to be fair and say because it was my first time trying this method,I cannot speak too much about the texture changes,because I know I need to do this a few more times to note the changes over  doughs I normally make.

What I was surprised about,I was using HG Bouncer Flour,and thought reballing would make it too tough after it had a 2nd rise.I felt for sure from past experiments,I would get a very leathery crust and tough rim.

Yet,That was not the case at all.The chew was spot on.I don't know if that helps explains much,but its all I can do now.I need to do more work with reballing doughs to compare it to others doughs I do.

I had one other problem,I had to launch the pie using a screen first.My stone is only 15 inch round.My recipe called for a 14 inch doughball,and I ended up using a 15 inch screen to launch it.The dough could have been stretched to 16 inch with ease.After 2 minutes of screen bake time,I removed the pie off the screen and put it back onto the stone.

So I didnt get the oven spring I expected because it baked on screen first,but the rim was still nicely large in size.I did not try to launch the pie directly on the stone,because it may have fell off the sides somewhere.I did not want to waste this dough or make a calzone out of it.Its not easy to launch a 15 inch dough/pie,spot onto a stone the same size.

:)






-Bill

Offline chickenparm

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #129 on: December 29, 2011, 10:55:58 PM »
Heres a few pics.

-Bill

Offline chickenparm

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #130 on: December 29, 2011, 10:57:05 PM »
A few more pics.

-Bill

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #131 on: December 30, 2011, 08:23:46 AM »
Bill
Nice, nice job!!!  I always love the bottom shots the best, and yours looks nice and tender.  It's only 5:21 am here and i'd die to have a piece.  Keep experimenting and thanks a lot!  Also, besides the use of screen and such...any difference in the actual baking experience??

John

Offline Lester7009

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #132 on: December 30, 2011, 12:11:28 PM »

John Thank you for your valued information. I am a beginner  but learning every time you post. You have given me a good start and this is truly a exciting and Blessed adventure.
Thank You
Lester

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2011, 02:41:28 PM »
John Thank you for your valued information. I am a beginner  but learning every time you post. You have given me a good start and this is truly a exciting and Blessed adventure.
Thank You
Lester
There's a ton of info here Lester...its a great place to see the different techniques, ingredients, philosophies, etc.

John


Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2011, 03:01:07 PM »
Now that I have a little better understanding of what balling later in the process does, I had to the ultimate experiment on a dough that I am familiar with, and feel a kinship with.

The recipe:  I used ADM high gluten for this but have good luck regularly with bread flour

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (.5%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Honey (2%):
Total (168.5%):
Single Ball:
1328.75 g  |  46.87 oz | 2.93 lbs
823.82 g  |  29.06 oz | 1.82 lbs
6.64 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.21 tsp | 0.74 tbsp
26.57 g | 0.94 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.76 tsp | 1.59 tbsp
26.57 g | 0.94 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.91 tsp | 1.97 tbsp
26.57 g | 0.94 oz | 0.06 lbs | 3.8 tsp | 1.27 tbsp
2238.94 g | 78.98 oz | 4.94 lbs | TF = N/A
373.16 g | 13.16 oz | 0.82 lbs

I first took 15.4 oz flour and mixed it with 15.4 oz of cool tap water and .05 oz yeast to make a poolish which sat at room temp for 15 hours.

To the ripened poolish I added all the other ingredients and mixed on stir (Kitchen Aid) for 4 minutes, then let the dough rest 5 minutes, and then finished mixing on a notch above stir for 3 minutes.  This dough was scaled, very lightly rounded and placed in refrigerator containers and refrigerated.

I started adding poolish to this recipe when I found I could get great textured doughs in shorter amounts of time, as well as getting the added flavors associated with poolishes.  My attempt with the following exercise is to see if I can great pizza, balling my dough in shorter increments of times before baking.  I'm going to start by balling doughs 3 hours prior to bake.

This first pizza is made from a dough which was refrigerated 22 hours, then taken out of the fridge, balled and left to sit at room temp for 3 hours prior to baking.  This pizza has a very, very thin bottom crust, a nice soft middle, and is fabulous.  The interesting thing about this pizza, is that even an hour after baking, you could here the crunch when someone took a bite of what was left.

John
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 03:08:42 PM by fazzari »

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2011, 03:06:42 PM »
And the second pizza was made from a dough that was in the fridge 46 hours, taken out and balled and left to sit at room temp for 3 hours prior to bake.  Baked in my home oven 580 degrees, about 5 minutes.  Very, thin bottom crust, not quite as crispy as the first one, excellent texture, and again this one is still crispy after sitting 1 hour. 
John

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2011, 03:13:27 PM »
John,

You are doing an outstanding job on your continuing experiments!   :)  Those pies looks great!

Norma

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #137 on: January 01, 2012, 02:31:53 AM »
John,

You are doing an outstanding job on your continuing experiments!   :)  Those pies looks great!

Norma

Thanks Norma
I think I've hit on something here....with the following pizza this makes 3 upper echelon pizzas, made from the same batch, but all of different ages.  I have some friends in Seattle testing my hypothesis with the same dough...so we shall see...I know I'm convinced!!
The following pizza was made from a dough which was refrigerated 57 hours, taken out and balled, and left to warm up for 3 hours prior to bake.  Baked in a deck oven, 550 degrees.  This pizza also has a very, very thin crust, is crispy, tender and delicious.
John

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #138 on: January 01, 2012, 08:41:45 AM »
John,

Your latest experiments look gorgeous!  :chef: I bet from the long fermentation the crust really tasted great.  I wanted to ask you some questions if you thought your recent experiments tasted anything like the experiments you did on the hybrid Reinhart at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.0.html  The ingredients look about the same except for the hydration. 

What do you think the preferment added, in your recent experiment?  Do you think these recent pizzas were better than your Reinhartís with a preferment and a higher hydration?  Also what do you think about no oil added and does that help for a more tender crust?  I just have a hard time understanding all the differences.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #139 on: January 01, 2012, 02:28:22 PM »
John,

I would say that most of the viewers of the posts on this forum do not have deck ovens or unmodified home ovens that can get up to around 570 degrees F. Both of those situations are highly advantageous for most types of pizzas, especially in the area of oven spring, bake times and crust/crumb texture. Have you tried the principles of this thread with a home oven at around 500 degrees F?

Peter

Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #140 on: January 02, 2012, 09:33:20 AM »
My two favorites threads at the moment are this one and "A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo!". Omid, the person who started the thread and makes some remarkable pizzas posts that he bulk ferments for only 1-2 hours at room temperature before balling. He then ferments the balls for anywhere from 24 - 71 hours in his marble chamber which I believe is kept at approximately 55 - 64 degrees.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165435.html#msg165435

Granted it is a totally different type of pizza, but from a fermentation/balling standpoint is almost opposite of what John is doing here. (short bulk/long ball vs. long bulk/short ball) Yet both methods look to be producing fantastic pizzas. I find these discussions and experimentations to be fascinating.

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #141 on: January 02, 2012, 07:24:48 PM »
When I was making my dough at market today, it dawned on me to just save a scaled piece of dough and coat it lightly with olive oil for a balling for tomorrow, to see if letting the dough sit until tomorrow and then doing the balling, can help the preferment Lehmann dough.  I will ball sometime in the morning and let the dough ball go for 3 hrs. or more to see what happens.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 06:48:10 AM by norma427 »


Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #142 on: January 03, 2012, 12:10:07 AM »
John,

Your latest experiments look gorgeous!  :chef: I bet from the long fermentation the crust really tasted great.  I wanted to ask you some questions if you thought your recent experiments tasted anything like the experiments you did on the hybrid Reinhart at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.0.html  The ingredients look about the same except for the hydration. 

What do you think the preferment added, in your recent experiment?  Do you think these recent pizzas were better than your Reinhartís with a preferment and a higher hydration?  Also what do you think about no oil added and does that help for a more tender crust?  I just have a hard time understanding all the differences.

Norma
Well Norma
All of the Reinhart doughs were very similar.  I was ready to call it quits, because I didn't think I could make the pizza any better.  It was only when I lowered the hydration, (kind of as a starting point to try new things), that  I realized that the texture was still very similar to the higher hydrated doughs.  So, I knew it was not necessarily the hydration which made the pizza exceptional.  I still believed that it had to be the combination of ingredients with the particular mixing schedule....and of course, I always knew the dough "HAD" to be reballed.  One concern I always had, was that it took 2 or 3 days of fermentation, to get the best textured crusts, and that is when I started playing around with the idea of using a poolish.  And it seemed to work at the time..I could get a very good crust in as little as 1 day (texture wise) and the poolish added great flavor.  This kind of lead up to my experimentation with balling schedules....I am convinced the balling schedule is the single biggest factor in the production of a great textured crust.  In the past, as I worked with Reinhart doughs, I always reballed, but my reball schedule varied, most of the time I reballed the night before I baked...so, I would say 8 to 12 hours prior to bake.  The pizzas were always good, but once in awhile, an exceptionally crispy, great textured crust would show up...but, I couldn't figure out why.  This latest experiment, balling 3 hours prior to baking is very, very promising, and so very exciting.  I am talking crispy, great textured pizza each and every time so far.  It's funny, I feel like a baseball player, who does things the same way, so as not to jinks a good thing.  My next adventure, will be to see if I really need to go through Reinhart's mixing machinations, do I really need oil, etc....because like I said, I'm convinced the balling schedule is everything.  Having said all that, take a look at the pizza we had this morning.
This pizza was made from a dough which was refrigerated 94 hours, taken out and balled, and left to sit out 3 hours.  This was the crispiest one yet.  Hope I didn't ramble to much Norma.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #143 on: January 03, 2012, 12:15:44 AM »
John,

I would say that most of the viewers of the posts on this forum do not have deck ovens or unmodified home ovens that can get up to around 570 degrees F. Both of those situations are highly advantageous for most types of pizzas, especially in the area of oven spring, bake times and crust/crumb texture. Have you tried the principles of this thread with a home oven at around 500 degrees F?

Peter

Ok Peter
You talked me into it.  This week, I will do an experiment using my oven set at 500 degrees.  Do you want me to try my dough or would your prefer maybe a Lehmann type?

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #144 on: January 03, 2012, 12:20:13 AM »
My two favorites threads at the moment are this one and "A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo!". Omid, the person who started the thread and makes some remarkable pizzas posts that he bulk ferments for only 1-2 hours at room temperature before balling. He then ferments the balls for anywhere from 24 - 71 hours in his marble chamber which I believe is kept at approximately 55 - 64 degrees.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165435.html#msg165435

Granted it is a totally different type of pizza, but from a fermentation/balling standpoint is almost opposite of what John is doing here. (short bulk/long ball vs. long bulk/short ball) Yet both methods look to be producing fantastic pizzas. I find these discussions and experimentations to be fascinating.

That's good stuff Danny.....a million ways to make a pizza!!

John

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #145 on: January 03, 2012, 07:04:51 AM »
Well Norma
All of the Reinhart doughs were very similar.  I was ready to call it quits, because I didn't think I could make the pizza any better.  It was only when I lowered the hydration, (kind of as a starting point to try new things), that  I realized that the texture was still very similar to the higher hydrated doughs.  So, I knew it was not necessarily the hydration which made the pizza exceptional.  I still believed that it had to be the combination of ingredients with the particular mixing schedule....and of course, I always knew the dough "HAD" to be reballed.  One concern I always had, was that it took 2 or 3 days of fermentation, to get the best textured crusts, and that is when I started playing around with the idea of using a poolish.  And it seemed to work at the time..I could get a very good crust in as little as 1 day (texture wise) and the poolish added great flavor.  This kind of lead up to my experimentation with balling schedules....I am convinced the balling schedule is the single biggest factor in the production of a great textured crust.  In the past, as I worked with Reinhart doughs, I always reballed, but my reball schedule varied, most of the time I reballed the night before I baked...so, I would say 8 to 12 hours prior to bake.  The pizzas were always good, but once in awhile, an exceptionally crispy, great textured crust would show up...but, I couldn't figure out why.  This latest experiment, balling 3 hours prior to baking is very, very promising, and so very exciting.  I am talking crispy, great textured pizza each and every time so far.  It's funny, I feel like a baseball player, who does things the same way, so as not to jinks a good thing.  My next adventure, will be to see if I really need to go through Reinhart's mixing machinations, do I really need oil, etc....because like I said, I'm convinced the balling schedule is everything.  Having said all that, take a look at the pizza we had this morning.
This pizza was made from a dough which was refrigerated 94 hours, taken out and balled, and left to sit out 3 hours.  This was the crispiest one yet.  Hope I didn't ramble to much Norma.
John


John,

You didnít ramble on too much for me.  ;D I am always interested in your experiments and the results you achieve.  It is interesting the results you are achieving with a lower hydration dough and the texture being the same as a higher hydration dough.  I am most interested in the balling schedule and you finding that is the single biggest factor in the production of a great textured crust.  Your schedule now of balling 3 hrs prior to baking is also exciting for me to hear.  I think you have already hit a home run.  Your pizza you had this morning looks excellent!  :chef: Will be interested in your next experiments also. 

Since my oven isnít as hot as yours, I will see what happens to the ball and then letting the dough ball sit at room temperature today for 3 hours to see if I can get a better textured pizza.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #146 on: January 03, 2012, 07:57:20 AM »
Ok Peter
You talked me into it.  This week, I will do an experiment using my oven set at 500 degrees.  Do you want me to try my dough or would your prefer maybe a Lehmann type?

John

John,

I will leave that up to you. Also, if you can, please try to keep the oven at a temperature where the stone is at 500 degrees F. In my oven, with my stone on the lowest oven rack position, I sometimes have to lower the knob setting to keep the stone from getting hotter. I discovered this most recently when I was making the Mellow Mushroom clones where I wanted to keep the stone temperature the same for all of the clones to keep that factor constant. That is where my infrared thermometer came in handy.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #147 on: January 03, 2012, 08:56:01 PM »
John and anyone else that is interested,

The piece of scaled dough that was left to cold ferment without balling, was balled today at about 1:10 pm. The dough ball sat at room temperature for a little over 3 hrs.  I decided to open the dough ball around 4:30 pm.  The dough ball was easy to open and had more bubbles in the skin than my other preferments Lehmann dough skins today.  The resulting pizza baked well and was different than my regular pizzas today.  The crumb was lighter and the texture was better.  The bottom crust also browned well.  Steve, my taste testers, and I all were surprised how well this pizza baked with Johnís methods.  Steve and I kept talking about what a difference Johnís method made in the final pizza. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #148 on: January 03, 2012, 08:57:16 PM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #149 on: January 03, 2012, 08:58:26 PM »
Norma


 

pizzapan