Author Topic: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough  (Read 24038 times)

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Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #140 on: January 02, 2012, 09:33:20 AM »
My two favorites threads at the moment are this one and "A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo!". Omid, the person who started the thread and makes some remarkable pizzas posts that he bulk ferments for only 1-2 hours at room temperature before balling. He then ferments the balls for anywhere from 24 - 71 hours in his marble chamber which I believe is kept at approximately 55 - 64 degrees.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165435.html#msg165435

Granted it is a totally different type of pizza, but from a fermentation/balling standpoint is almost opposite of what John is doing here. (short bulk/long ball vs. long bulk/short ball) Yet both methods look to be producing fantastic pizzas. I find these discussions and experimentations to be fascinating.


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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #141 on: January 02, 2012, 07:24:48 PM »
When I was making my dough at market today, it dawned on me to just save a scaled piece of dough and coat it lightly with olive oil for a balling for tomorrow, to see if letting the dough sit until tomorrow and then doing the balling, can help the preferment Lehmann dough.  I will ball sometime in the morning and let the dough ball go for 3 hrs. or more to see what happens.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 06:48:10 AM by norma427 »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #142 on: January 03, 2012, 12:10:07 AM »
John,

Your latest experiments look gorgeous!  :chef: I bet from the long fermentation the crust really tasted great.  I wanted to ask you some questions if you thought your recent experiments tasted anything like the experiments you did on the hybrid Reinhart at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.0.html  The ingredients look about the same except for the hydration. 

What do you think the preferment added, in your recent experiment?  Do you think these recent pizzas were better than your Reinhartís with a preferment and a higher hydration?  Also what do you think about no oil added and does that help for a more tender crust?  I just have a hard time understanding all the differences.

Norma

Well Norma
All of the Reinhart doughs were very similar.  I was ready to call it quits, because I didn't think I could make the pizza any better.  It was only when I lowered the hydration, (kind of as a starting point to try new things), that  I realized that the texture was still very similar to the higher hydrated doughs.  So, I knew it was not necessarily the hydration which made the pizza exceptional.  I still believed that it had to be the combination of ingredients with the particular mixing schedule....and of course, I always knew the dough "HAD" to be reballed.  One concern I always had, was that it took 2 or 3 days of fermentation, to get the best textured crusts, and that is when I started playing around with the idea of using a poolish.  And it seemed to work at the time..I could get a very good crust in as little as 1 day (texture wise) and the poolish added great flavor.  This kind of lead up to my experimentation with balling schedules....I am convinced the balling schedule is the single biggest factor in the production of a great textured crust.  In the past, as I worked with Reinhart doughs, I always reballed, but my reball schedule varied, most of the time I reballed the night before I baked...so, I would say 8 to 12 hours prior to bake.  The pizzas were always good, but once in awhile, an exceptionally crispy, great textured crust would show up...but, I couldn't figure out why.  This latest experiment, balling 3 hours prior to baking is very, very promising, and so very exciting.  I am talking crispy, great textured pizza each and every time so far.  It's funny, I feel like a baseball player, who does things the same way, so as not to jinks a good thing.  My next adventure, will be to see if I really need to go through Reinhart's mixing machinations, do I really need oil, etc....because like I said, I'm convinced the balling schedule is everything.  Having said all that, take a look at the pizza we had this morning.
This pizza was made from a dough which was refrigerated 94 hours, taken out and balled, and left to sit out 3 hours.  This was the crispiest one yet.  Hope I didn't ramble to much Norma.
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #143 on: January 03, 2012, 12:15:44 AM »
John,

I would say that most of the viewers of the posts on this forum do not have deck ovens or unmodified home ovens that can get up to around 570 degrees F. Both of those situations are highly advantageous for most types of pizzas, especially in the area of oven spring, bake times and crust/crumb texture. Have you tried the principles of this thread with a home oven at around 500 degrees F?

Peter

Ok Peter
You talked me into it.  This week, I will do an experiment using my oven set at 500 degrees.  Do you want me to try my dough or would your prefer maybe a Lehmann type?

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #144 on: January 03, 2012, 12:20:13 AM »
My two favorites threads at the moment are this one and "A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo!". Omid, the person who started the thread and makes some remarkable pizzas posts that he bulk ferments for only 1-2 hours at room temperature before balling. He then ferments the balls for anywhere from 24 - 71 hours in his marble chamber which I believe is kept at approximately 55 - 64 degrees.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165435.html#msg165435

Granted it is a totally different type of pizza, but from a fermentation/balling standpoint is almost opposite of what John is doing here. (short bulk/long ball vs. long bulk/short ball) Yet both methods look to be producing fantastic pizzas. I find these discussions and experimentations to be fascinating.


That's good stuff Danny.....a million ways to make a pizza!!

John

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #145 on: January 03, 2012, 07:04:51 AM »
Well Norma
All of the Reinhart doughs were very similar.  I was ready to call it quits, because I didn't think I could make the pizza any better.  It was only when I lowered the hydration, (kind of as a starting point to try new things), that  I realized that the texture was still very similar to the higher hydrated doughs.  So, I knew it was not necessarily the hydration which made the pizza exceptional.  I still believed that it had to be the combination of ingredients with the particular mixing schedule....and of course, I always knew the dough "HAD" to be reballed.  One concern I always had, was that it took 2 or 3 days of fermentation, to get the best textured crusts, and that is when I started playing around with the idea of using a poolish.  And it seemed to work at the time..I could get a very good crust in as little as 1 day (texture wise) and the poolish added great flavor.  This kind of lead up to my experimentation with balling schedules....I am convinced the balling schedule is the single biggest factor in the production of a great textured crust.  In the past, as I worked with Reinhart doughs, I always reballed, but my reball schedule varied, most of the time I reballed the night before I baked...so, I would say 8 to 12 hours prior to bake.  The pizzas were always good, but once in awhile, an exceptionally crispy, great textured crust would show up...but, I couldn't figure out why.  This latest experiment, balling 3 hours prior to baking is very, very promising, and so very exciting.  I am talking crispy, great textured pizza each and every time so far.  It's funny, I feel like a baseball player, who does things the same way, so as not to jinks a good thing.  My next adventure, will be to see if I really need to go through Reinhart's mixing machinations, do I really need oil, etc....because like I said, I'm convinced the balling schedule is everything.  Having said all that, take a look at the pizza we had this morning.
This pizza was made from a dough which was refrigerated 94 hours, taken out and balled, and left to sit out 3 hours.  This was the crispiest one yet.  Hope I didn't ramble to much Norma.
John


John,

You didnít ramble on too much for me.  ;D I am always interested in your experiments and the results you achieve.  It is interesting the results you are achieving with a lower hydration dough and the texture being the same as a higher hydration dough.  I am most interested in the balling schedule and you finding that is the single biggest factor in the production of a great textured crust.  Your schedule now of balling 3 hrs prior to baking is also exciting for me to hear.  I think you have already hit a home run.  Your pizza you had this morning looks excellent!  :chef: Will be interested in your next experiments also. 

Since my oven isnít as hot as yours, I will see what happens to the ball and then letting the dough ball sit at room temperature today for 3 hours to see if I can get a better textured pizza.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #146 on: January 03, 2012, 07:57:20 AM »
Ok Peter
You talked me into it.  This week, I will do an experiment using my oven set at 500 degrees.  Do you want me to try my dough or would your prefer maybe a Lehmann type?

John

John,

I will leave that up to you. Also, if you can, please try to keep the oven at a temperature where the stone is at 500 degrees F. In my oven, with my stone on the lowest oven rack position, I sometimes have to lower the knob setting to keep the stone from getting hotter. I discovered this most recently when I was making the Mellow Mushroom clones where I wanted to keep the stone temperature the same for all of the clones to keep that factor constant. That is where my infrared thermometer came in handy.

Peter

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #147 on: January 03, 2012, 08:56:01 PM »
John and anyone else that is interested,

The piece of scaled dough that was left to cold ferment without balling, was balled today at about 1:10 pm. The dough ball sat at room temperature for a little over 3 hrs.  I decided to open the dough ball around 4:30 pm.  The dough ball was easy to open and had more bubbles in the skin than my other preferments Lehmann dough skins today.  The resulting pizza baked well and was different than my regular pizzas today.  The crumb was lighter and the texture was better.  The bottom crust also browned well.  Steve, my taste testers, and I all were surprised how well this pizza baked with Johnís methods.  Steve and I kept talking about what a difference Johnís method made in the final pizza. 

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #148 on: January 03, 2012, 08:57:16 PM »
Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #149 on: January 03, 2012, 08:58:26 PM »
Norma
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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #150 on: January 03, 2012, 08:59:15 PM »
Norma
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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #151 on: January 03, 2012, 09:00:05 PM »
Norma
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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #152 on: January 03, 2012, 09:00:56 PM »
Norma
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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #153 on: January 03, 2012, 09:03:32 PM »
Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #154 on: January 03, 2012, 09:04:36 PM »
Norma
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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #155 on: January 03, 2012, 09:05:45 PM »
Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #156 on: January 03, 2012, 11:09:02 PM »
John and anyone else that is interested,

The piece of scaled dough that was left to cold ferment without balling, was balled today at about 1:10 pm. The dough ball sat at room temperature for a little over 3 hrs.  I decided to open the dough ball around 4:30 pm.  The dough ball was easy to open and had more bubbles in the skin than my other preferments Lehmann dough skins today.  The resulting pizza baked well and was different than my regular pizzas today.  The crumb was lighter and the texture was better.  The bottom crust also browned well.  Steve, my taste testers, and I all were surprised how well this pizza baked with Johnís methods.  Steve and I kept talking about what a difference Johnís method made in the final pizza. 

Norma

Norma
Thanks for giving it a shot...it's hard to believe its the same dough, huh???

Not to drag this on and on....but....here's a pizza made from dough which was in the fridge 118 hours, taken out and balled 3 hours prior to baking.....this is 5 beauties in a row.  Looking forward to the Peter challenge...coming soon!!

John

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #157 on: January 04, 2012, 07:58:11 AM »
Norma
Thanks for giving it a shot...it's hard to believe its the same dough, huh???

John


John,

You are correct, it was hard to believe it was the same dough.  :) I want to do some more experiments with the preferment Lehmann dough, but don't know how to go about them right now.

Norma
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Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #158 on: January 04, 2012, 09:49:35 AM »
John,
This may seem like a simple question but how do you ball your dough? I find that there are two basic methods. After cutting your dough into the appropriate weights you can;

1. pick up the dough and start folding the edges over and rotating approximately 90 degrees each fold. After 6-8 folds, turn the ball over and twist the bottom to close any open edges.

2. take your loose dough and keeping it on the counter, use your hand to form an inverted cup and roll the dough until the ball is formed.

IMO the first method works the dough more. It's almost like a folding method of kneeding. The second method is more gentler on the dough. The reason I ask is because you are balling just a few hours before making the pie and I'm wondering how that might effect your final results.

Offline cosgrojo

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #159 on: January 04, 2012, 10:38:16 AM »
John, I have been fascinated by this thread as well, and through my own meager experience, agree with your theory. I second Danny's request about your balling technique. I use technique number two... But I feel that I may knead more aggressively at the beginning than most do. What say you sir? Thanks.