Author Topic: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor  (Read 5566 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21173
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 11:36:22 AM »

Next step is to come up with a flavorful, sauce (not from a can)...I'd like it to be a little tangy, instead of sweet.  If anyone knows of a post somewhere in this forum that I can find a sauce like this, please let me know. 

John



John,

I donít know if you would like Lesís tomato sauce, but I posted about it many times at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11539.0.html  The direct link to Lesís sauce is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17063.html#msg17063  I think Les's sauce is a little on the sweet side though.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline dmcavanagh

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1912
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2012, 10:40:36 AM »
If you have access to it, try some malted barley syrup. Beermaking supply stores carry it, it's the ingredient used by "real" bagel makers to flavor the dough.

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2012, 12:25:00 PM »

John,

I donít know if you would like Lesís tomato sauce, but I posted about it many times at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11539.0.html  The direct link to Lesís sauce is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17063.html#msg17063  I think Les's sauce is a little on the sweet side though.

Norma


OK...Thanks Norma.  I'll check it out.

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2012, 12:28:20 PM »
If you have access to it, try some malted barley syrup. Beermaking supply stores carry it, it's the ingredient used by "real" bagel makers to flavor the dough.

Would love to know yours, or anyone's, opinion on benefits and differences using honey or malted barley syrup.  I used to make beer at home, so I am familiar with malted barley syrup.  But do remember that it comes in many variations for different styles of beer.  Do I use dark, light, or which is best?

Thanks,

John

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21702
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2012, 01:57:14 PM »
John,

The main purpose for using honey and barley malt syrup (nondiastatic) is to impart sweetness to the finished crust. Depending on the amount used, and also the depth of the color of the honey and barley malt syrup, they will also impart color to the dough and finished crust. If you do not want to have a sweet tasting crust, you will perhaps want to keep the amount of honey or barley malt syrup under about 5%. A light colored honey (like a basic clover honey) at around that value will not impart much color to the dough and finished crust. See, for example, the crumb of the crust of the Papa John's clone pizza shown at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. By contrast, using the same amount of nondiastatic barley malt syrup (such as the Eden brand shown at http://www.edenfoods.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=26_50&products_id=104050&ref_src=google&ref_id=condiments&gclid=COCsq4OemaUCFQpZ2godOE0ZKQ) at about the same percent, you will note a darkening of the dough and the crumb of the finished crust. See, for example, the color of the dough and of the crumb in the pizza shown at Reply 46 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55474.html#msg55474. Even when used at a lower level, there can still be color imparted to the finished crust by the barley malt syrup. See, for example, Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg40413.html#msg40413.

When using honey, you can use it at the same weight of any sugar you choose to replace. However, technically you normally will want to adjust the formula hydration to reflect the fact that honey contains about 17% water. The same type of adjustment technically should be made when using nondiastatic barley malt syrup. For that ingredient, the percent water is about 21% (for the Eden brand). Unless you plan to use a lot of honey or barley malt syrup, you can usually dispense with adjusting the formula water to reflect the water contents of those ingredients. The amount of water is usually fairly small.

Peter

Offline steel_baker

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 180
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Western Pennsylvania
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2012, 02:07:23 PM »
I used 10g of Molasses instead of 8g of sugar or honey in the tray of VP style pizza that I made Sunday and it was very, very good. Definitely added some color to the crust. It also seemed to bottom brown a bit more and the crust was overall probably the best I've made thus far. Very crispy outside & soft with great structure & flavor inside. :chef:
steel_baker  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21702
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2012, 02:23:58 PM »
John,

Following up on steel_baker's recommendation, depending on the type and brand, molasses contains about 20-22% water. Again, at low levels of usage, there is usually no need to adjust the formula hydration to reflect its water content. If you choose to go with molasses and you are really after flavor rather than sweetness, you will want to go with a second boil product, like the Grandma's Robust or the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses. They are among the darkest forms of molasses so they will also impart a dark color to the dough and finished crust. The only molasses that has more flavor and a darker color is blackstrap molasses. However, blackstrap molasses has the least sugar.

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2012, 05:29:43 PM »
OK...Awesome!  Thanks Peter and Steel_Baker.  Very helpful info.  Will probably try a different type of sugar/honey/molasses next time, and will post the results.

FYI...I had been using natural cane sugar, which has a tannish-brown color.  And, I had been using about double what Steel_Baker uses.  This was giving a slight sweet flavor...and pretty nice browning on the bottom...but, not on top, since it's kind of difficult to get browning on the top of the crust when using the 2 1/2 inch deep Sicilian pans.  I believe the cane sugar browning was coming more from the bake itself (the sugar's reaction to heat), rather than from it's original color. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 05:40:31 PM by Killmeyer000 »

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2012, 11:53:33 PM »
OK...So, I made a double batch of dough tonight for Saturday (two pizzas).  Used Grandma's molasses.  Not sure I did the math correctly.  Below is the recipe that I've had good results with.  It's pretty high in sugar.  I like it that way.  I replaced the cane sugar with the same weight of molasses.  Here is the math I used...assuming the molasses is 20% water.  double batch...so 36 grams molasses X 20% = 7 grams.  Then subtracted 7 grams of water from the total of the double batch...so water was 541 grams.  That's the only adjustment I made.  Is that right?  Seems like it might be wrong, since my end dough ball for double batch would be 7 grams short of the total?


Pizza Ė Sicilian Style B

    Pizza Dough Ingredients (12x17 blue steel, high-side pan)
Flour      100.0%   409 grams   (King Arthur bread flour)          X 2 = 818
Water   67.0%   274 grams   (refrigerated spring water)       X 2 = 548
Salt      2.0%      8 grams                                                X 2 = 16
Sugar      4.4%      18 grams (or 1 Tablespoon cane sugar)      X 2 = 36
IDY      0.50%   2 grams                                                X 2 = 4
Olive oil   1.0%      4 grams                                                X 2 = 8

TOTAL                       715                                                      X 2 = 1430

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2012, 12:04:23 AM »
This is the molasses I used...since it was in the cupboard already.  Not sure if it is any good.


Offline JimmyJazz

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 26
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 12:18:20 AM »
With a name like Grandma's.. Its gotta be good  ;)

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21173
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2012, 08:48:15 AM »
Killmeyer000 ,

Will be anxious to see how your two pizzas turn out with the addition of Grandmaís Original Molasses.  In the formulations with Grandma's molasses I have tried so far, I like the addition of Grandma's.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Don K

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1281
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2012, 09:08:24 AM »
If you have access to it, try some malted barley syrup. Beermaking supply stores carry it, it's the ingredient used by "real" bagel makers to flavor the dough.
You can get barley malt syrup a lot of places now. I get it at the local grocery store in the Organic Foods section, and recently I saw that they also had it near the sugar and sugar substitutes aisle. I have also seen it at Trader Joe's and Whole Foods.

I've never tried it in dough (yet), but I use it for baked beans and barbecue sauce.
The member formerly known as Colonel_Klink

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21702
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2012, 09:58:27 AM »
OK...So, I made a double batch of dough tonight for Saturday (two pizzas).  Used Grandma's molasses.  Not sure I did the math correctly.  Below is the recipe that I've had good results with.  It's pretty high in sugar.  I like it that way.  I replaced the cane sugar with the same weight of molasses.  Here is the math I used...assuming the molasses is 20% water.  double batch...so 36 grams molasses X 20% = 7 grams.  Then subtracted 7 grams of water from the total of the double batch...so water was 541 grams.  That's the only adjustment I made.  Is that right?  Seems like it might be wrong, since my end dough ball for double batch would be 7 grams short of the total?


Pizza Ė Sicilian Style B

    Pizza Dough Ingredients (12x17 blue steel, high-side pan)
Flour      100.0%   409 grams   (King Arthur bread flour)          X 2 = 818
Water   67.0%   274 grams   (refrigerated spring water)       X 2 = 548
Salt      2.0%      8 grams                                                X 2 = 16
Sugar      4.4%      18 grams (or 1 Tablespoon cane sugar)      X 2 = 36
IDY      0.50%   2 grams                                                X 2 = 4
Olive oil   1.0%      4 grams                                                X 2 = 8

TOTAL                       715                                                      X 2 = 1430



John,

For as far as you went, you did everything right in terms of adjusting the formula hydration to reflect the water content of the Grandma's Original Molasses except that you should have used 21% rather than 20%. But, since you used 20%, I will stick with that number. I also used 7.2 grams instead of the rounded 7 grams that you mentioned (20% x 36 = 7.2). Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what your modified dough formulation looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (66.1125%):
IDY (0.489%):
Salt (1.95599%):
Olive Oil (0.978%):
Molasses (4.401%):
Total (173.93649%):
Single Ball:
818 g  |  28.85 oz | 1.8 lbs
540.8 g  |  19.08 oz | 1.19 lbs
4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
16 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
8 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.78 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
36 g | 1.27 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.2 tsp | 1.73 tbsp
1422.8 g | 50.19 oz | 3.14 lbs | TF = N/A
711.4 g | 25.09 oz | 1.57 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In order to get the 7.2 grams back, you have to increase the amounts of all of the ingredients proportionately, in your case by 7.2/1422.8. The easiest way to do this is to simply enter a dough weight of 715 grams into the expanded dough calculating tool and specify two dough balls. Doing that will give you this:

Flour (100%):
Water (66.1125%):
IDY (0.489%):
Salt (1.95599%):
Olive Oil (0.978%):
Molasses (4.401%):
Total (173.93649%):
Single Ball:
822.14 g  |  29 oz | 1.81 lbs
543.54 g  |  19.17 oz | 1.2 lbs
4.02 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
16.08 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.88 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
8.04 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
36.18 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.22 tsp | 1.74 tbsp
1430 g | 50.44 oz | 3.15 lbs | TF = N/A
715 g | 25.22 oz | 1.58 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In your case, losing 7.2 grams of dough will not be noticeable. In fact, you are likely to lose more than that just because of dough losses during preparation of the dough. As a result, I doubt that your finished dough weighed 711.4 x 2 = 1422.8 grams.

The Grandma's Original Molasses is a very good molasses. However, it will not be equivalent to the table sugar in terms of sweetness because molasses is less sweet than table sugar. I did a sucrose equivalency calculation and, if my numbers are right, I would say that from a sweetness standpoint the Grandma's molasses will be equivalent to about 1.72% table sugar. If that is correct, and unless you have a palate that is very sensitive to sweetness, you may not detect the sweetness of the Grandma's molasses at all. For most people, you need about 4-5% sugar to detect it in a finished crust. Many of us have done a lot of work with molasses in doughs over at the Mellow Mushroom thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.0.html and we found that you need around 11-12% Grandma's Original Molasses to be able to noticeably detect sweetness in the finished crust. What you will get with the Grandma's molasses is more flavor and more color to the dough and finished crust and crumb.

I look forward to your results.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:27:58 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2012, 11:10:12 AM »

In order to get the 14 grams back (7 grams per dough ball), you have to increase the amounts of all of the ingredients proportionately, in your case by 7/708. The easiest way to do this is to simply enter a dough weight of 715 grams into the expanded dough calculating tool and specify two dough balls. Doing that will give you this:

Flour (100%):
Water (65.2812%):
IDY (0.489%):
Salt (1.956%):
Olive Oil (0.978%):
Molasses (4.401%):
Total (173.1052%):
Single Ball:
826.09 g  |  29.14 oz | 1.82 lbs
539.28 g  |  19.02 oz | 1.19 lbs
4.04 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
16.16 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.9 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
8.08 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.8 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
36.36 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.25 tsp | 1.75 tbsp
1430 g | 50.44 oz | 3.15 lbs | TF = N/A
715 g | 25.22 oz | 1.58 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In your case, losing 7 grams of dough will not be noticeable. In fact, you are likely to lose more than that just because of dough losses during preparation of the dough. As a result, I doubt that your finished dough weighed 708 x 2 = 1416 grams.

The Grandma's Original Molasses is a very good molasses. However, it will not be equivalent to the table sugar in terms of sweetness because molasses is less sweet than table sugar. I did a sucrose equivalency calculation and, if my numbers are right, I would say that from a sweetness standpoint the Grandma's molasses will be equivalent to about 1.72% table sugar. If that is correct, and unless you have a palate that is very sensitive to sweetness, you may not detect the sweetness of the Grandma's molasses at all. For most people, you need about 4-5% sugar to detect it in a finished crust. Many of us have done a lot of work with molasses in doughs over at the Mellow Mushroom thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.0.html and we found that you need around 11-12% Grandma's Original Molasses to be able to noticeably detect sweetness in the finished crust. What you will get with the Grandma's molasses is more flavor and more color to the dough and finished crust and crumb.

I look forward to your results.

Peter


I'm a little confused?  I think what you did was correct, since the dough ball total was correct.  Not sure...though, since I think the loss per dough ball was 3.5 grams...or 7 total for 2 doughs.  At least that's how I measured it...or, maybe I measured it incorrectly?  I wonder if the 3.5 grams loss per dough ball will even be noticable?

OK...Wow...didn't realize there was that much difference in sweetness between sugar and molasses.  I would say that even at 4.4% cane sugar (1 TBSP per dough ball...what I used when I originally adapted the recipe from Steel Baker's Victory Pig), I didn't notice sweetness in the finished crust.  What I did notice was better browning on the bottom...and better crispness on the bottom and sides, without having to use so much oil in the pan.

Next time, I'll try to use the dough calculator.

Will let y'all know the results...and probably post pics.

Thanks,

John

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21702
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2012, 01:30:57 PM »
John,

I got a bit confused on your numbers. I modified my earlier post (Reply 33) and I believe I have corrected the error. You will note that I used 7.2 grams instead of the rounded 7 grams you mentioned.

Peter

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2012, 01:52:08 PM »
Peter,

Very good!  Thanks for your help!

John

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2012, 08:36:42 PM »
Results from first attempt at using Molasses...Here are the judges' (Me and my family) feelings on today's pizza:

Right away, after Kneading in the mixer, I noticed that the molasses dough was more sticky...and more difficult to work with.  I assumed that this was because the molasses was like syrup in the dough.  after the 3-day cold rise, I noticed that the dough had not risen as high as it did with cane sugar.  Perhaps this is because I used equal weights of cane sugar or molasses...but since molasses is less sweet (I assume has less sugar per weight?), the yeast did not have as much food to eat.  As peter mentioned, I should have used much more molasses by weight, to equal the same sweetness as cane sugar.  Again, working the dough into the pans was more difficult with molasses...The dough was stickier, and had more spring-back.  The bubbles in the molasses dough were smaller.  The molasses dough had better browning.  The outside of the molasses crust was nice and brown and crispy, at first.  However, leaving the pizza sit just a couple of minutes on a wooden cutting board with paper towels on it, the crust turned soggy pretty quickly.  We didn't notice this with the cane sugar so much.  Also, the interior of the molasses crust was more doughy.  The cane sugar crust had better texture...with a crispy exterior, and a bread-like...maybe even, texture of cotton candy-like, interior that wasn't doughy...and stayed like that after sitting out for a while.  The crumb of the molasses crust, much like it's dough, had smaller bubbles than the cane sugar.  Again, this may be due to the less sweetness (and I assume less sugar) of the equal weight of the molasses compared to cane sugar.  We didn't notice much difference in the flavor of the molasses crust compared to the cane sugar crust.

The over-all winner is cane sugar.  And, it's because of these reasons that we are going to have to chop you, molasses.  I'm sorry  :chef:  Here are some pics of today's Sicilian molasses pizza.     

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2012, 08:39:18 PM »
Molasses Pizza

Offline Killmeyer000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
Re: Newbie - Making Progress - But Still Need More Dough Flavor
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2012, 08:39:58 PM »
Bottom Of Molasses Pizza