Author Topic: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos  (Read 10502 times)

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Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2012, 09:44:03 AM »
I haven't completely broken the microblister code...
The microblisters may be caused by one or all of a few things:
1. Longer (not short really) fermentation time often coupled with cold retardation.
2. Strong radiant heat, possibly augmented by steam causing gas to rapidly shoot to the surface of the dough.

At least this is what was going on in a pie I made recently that got awesome microblisters. It was baked using a new technique I am working on...I was going for a sort of Mozza look which is why the rim is so puffy etc. Just a quick pizza from old dough for a simple meal. It was 10-11 inches, just looks smaller as the peel is medium sized.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 09:52:07 AM by johnnydoubleu »


Online TXCraig1

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2012, 10:20:25 AM »
I haven't completely broken the microblister code, but our conversation with Frank at Vesta gave me some more clues.

I think it has something to do with the moisture in the oven air? I seem to always get them when I bake bread in my kitchen oven which is very moist as I spray in tons of water throughout the first half of the bake.

Thoughts?

CL
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Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2012, 10:49:20 AM »
Craig,

As you know I have gotten pretty heavily into baking bread and that has informed (for better and in some cases for worse, my pizza) my pizza making somewhat. I mentioned steam in my second bullet...

I have a strong hunch that it is indeed steam/moisture in the oven that is large factor in creating these small blisters. The pizza in my post was actually steam baked (covered a la Tartine) for half its bake time. I wanted to see if this would create an open crumb with great rise and indeed it did -- along with microblisters. The steam hyper-accelerates the expansion of gas.

I would think that the drier the oven the less likely one is to get these small blisters. So (roughly) a coal oven or electric oven would be worse, a WFO a little better because of the moisture in the fuel, then gas, then steam and gas...or something along those lines. Temp factors as well. I don't think the temp has to be high at all -- I deliberately baked the pizza above at 425 F. Blasphemy I know ;) but the crust was amazing and the bones delicious. They were like fantastic, textured, tender bread sticks that I wish I got when eating out!

I think the code has been cracked! :)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 10:58:32 AM by johnnydoubleu »

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2012, 10:58:27 AM »
Craig,

As you know I have gotten pretty heavily into baking bread and that has informed (for better and in some cases for worse, my pizza) my pizza making somewhat. I mentioned steam in my second bullet...

I have a strong hunch that it is indeed steam/moisture in the oven that is large factor in creating these small blisters. The pizza in my post was actually steam baked (covered a la Tartine) for half its bake time. I wanted to see if this would create an open crumb with great rise and indeed it did -- along with microblisters. The steam hyper-accelerates the expansion of gas.

Sorry - I admit I didn't read all the previous posts  :-[  my bad.

C:
Pizza is not bread.

Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2012, 10:59:27 AM »
No worries Craig -- I added a bit more to my comment for clarification. I think it would be far less common to see these microblisters in young dough as well. So it seems still a combination of factors but most importantly steam.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:02:31 AM by johnnydoubleu »

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2012, 11:44:37 AM »
Interesting.  I was actually, at some point, going to start a new microblister thread, but haven't had a chance to get around to it.

A couple weeks back, I took my normal 2 day cold fermented NY style dough and baked it in a gas convection oven. It was the most microblisters that I've ever seen. I chalked it up to convection (and theorized that even non convection gas and wood ovens have more air flow/convection than electric), but maybe it is about moisture.

I do know, for a fact, that Pizzatown gets microblisters on every pie, and I believe they're using gas ovens (at higher than normal temps).

Frank, at Vesta, had a bread that was heavily microblistered that he makes in a convection oven (not sure if it's gas or electric), but he said that if he makes the dough with caputo (unmalted) rather than All Trumps (malted), he doesn't get microblisters. I can't say I've never seen microblisters with Caputo, but they do seem to be rare, so I do think malt plays a role.

I've gotten microblisters with anywhere from 1 to 3 day doughs, although, since I've started my microblister quest, I've not done any same day doughs. If I had to bet money on cold fermentation, I definitely would, but, at this point, I don't think anything is certain.

I still contend there's a connection with oil.  Oil definitely promotes even browning, and I don't think I've ever seen microblisters without even browning.  Also, as discussed elsewhere, deep fried foods are blister city.

Craig is that a fat free bread?  John, how much oil is there in that pizza?

I think I've come up with a new test.  Take my regular dough in my regular (electric) oven and paint a section of the rim with oil and another section with water.

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2012, 12:13:53 PM »
Craig is that a fat free bread? 

Scott, yes. KABF, water, salt, Ischia culture.

CL
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Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2012, 12:24:47 PM »
Scott,

Happened to be 1.5% oil in that dough, however I as long as I have employed steam (and have adequately fermented the dough) -- even with a completely lean dough (Tartine country dough) -- I get little blisters. A little bit of oil might help. Still think it is more (a blast of) steam than anything else, and high temps (provided you have good steam and adequate radiant heat and convection) aren't intrinsic. Convection definitely factors (far more than just high temp alone).  I think the immaturity of the dough of a lot of operators makes microblisters much less likely/doesn't promote them as well, but the right oven, adequate steam and convection may mitigate it. I need to take a look at the blistering or lack there of right after I unlid a Tartine loaf -- something in my gut tells me the "setting" of the crust is important.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2012, 12:27:18 PM »
Scotty, I started a micro blister thread when I first started learning how to make pizza.  You can see it here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10656.0.html

I never did figure it out at the time and consequently moved on in my pizza making endeavors.  Of all the pies I've made, it seems to be related to ....

-a strong well kneaded dough
-a well fermented dough.  More to do with the extent of fermentation rather than length of fermentation, but most long fermented doughs do end up becoming well fermented at some point.
-high heat.  This is why we will often see (more) blisters of said dough on the bottom crust compared to the top crust.
-oil in the dough probably works against microblistering, while oil brushed on the rim (outside of dough) aids in microblistering.  I think this is due to the increase in surface temps of the crust from the oil akin to deep frying the crust.
-I think steam can help but is only one factor and may not be necessary.  Steam on the outside of the crust as well as steam on the inside (think high hydration dough) definitely aids in crust expansion during the bake and micro blistering is definitely related to expansion of those surface bubbles.

Chau
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 12:31:27 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2012, 12:36:27 PM »
Sounds like we are all poking around the same general list of factors (that collude):

  • Adequately fermented dough
  • Even heat
  • Steam (generated somehow)
  • Adequate dough strength
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 12:47:19 PM by johnnydoubleu »


Offline bbqchuck

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Re: Pizzamaking Fanatics 2012 NJ Tour Amano, Lodi, Pizza Town, Vesta, Brunos
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2013, 07:34:15 AM »
Old thread. But the microblister topic seems to be recurring.   

I noted jackie mentioned high hydration as a possible contributor to microblistering.  I had a Shakey's pizza lastnight that had microblistering very heavy.  Probably heavier than any other dough I've seen.   I think that dough is pretty low hydration.   So high hydration itself may not be a big swinger in microblister production. But I'm still not sure what hydration Shakey's dough actually is.


 

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