Author Topic: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow  (Read 30553 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2012, 02:52:12 PM »
For the hydration test on part of Pepeís dough ball 10 grams of dough was weighed out, then placed into a metal lid.  I donít know why, but the small piece of Pepeís dough was so easy to pressed in the metal lid.  The dough didnít want to stretch-back at all. Pepeís dough is very soft even after defrosting for only 12 hrs. My toaster oven was set at around 500 degrees and the piece of dough did balloon this time.  I then removed the metal lid with Pepeís dough inside and slit the dough.  The toaster oven was then set at about 212 degrees F.  A little of Pepeís dough wanted to stick to the lid.  The final weight of Pepeís dough after the hydration test was 5.49 grams, with a couple of speckles of dough scattered around the small scale.

In the meantime, while I was waiting for the hydration test to be finished, I removed 5 oz. or 142 grams of the Pepeís dough ball for the gluten test.  The gluten after all the washing and dabbing with a paper towel weighed 35.14 grams.  I then placed the gluten ball in the paper towel for about 10 minutes, until I did a few other things.  I decided to weight the gluten ball and then it weighed 33.21 grams.  I am not to sure really when to weigh the gluten ball, or if enough water was patted out the first time with the paper towel.

I then tried to form the gluten mass into a ball.  Just from the short amount of time the gluten mass sat in the damp paper towel, it wanted to become very sticky.  Luckily it could be formed into a ball to be placed on the steel pan.  The gluten mass was baked on the steel baking pan in the oven for an hour at about 425 degrees F.  The baked gluten ball weighed 15.18 grams after the baking. After the baked gluten cooled I cut the bake gluten with a small scissors.  It amazes me how long a gluten ball takes to bake, when a regular dough never takes that long.  The gluten ball had looked baked well to me, but when it was cut there was a small part that was a little moist.  I wonder why a gluten ball takes so long to bake.

Norma
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 09:26:53 AM by norma427 »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2012, 02:53:16 PM »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2012, 02:55:46 PM »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2012, 02:56:46 PM »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2012, 02:57:56 PM »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2012, 02:59:26 PM »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2012, 05:42:52 PM »
With some of the leftover Pepeís dough after the hydration test, gluten test, and gluten bake test, I decided to roll out some of the dough and use a cookie cutter.  I had my good heart shaped cookie cutters at market for Tuesday, so I used a cheap plastic cookie cutter.  The first batch was baked in the toaster oven.  I wanted to see if there would be a difference in how the dough rose in the oven on the pizza stone.  The heart shaped little pizzas rose better on the pizza stone in my oven.  Both batches were made on the greased baking sheet from my toaster oven.  Pepeís dough was very easy to roll out.

There still was leftover Pepeís dough from the one dough ball so I froze it.

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2012, 05:43:51 PM »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2012, 05:44:46 PM »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2012, 05:45:19 PM »
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2012, 08:33:10 PM »
For the hydration test on part of Pepeís dough ball 10 grams of dough was weighed out, then placed into a metal lid.  I donít know why, but the small piece of Pepeís dough was so easy to pressed in the metal lid.  The dough didnít want to stretch-back at all. Pepeís dough is very soft even after defrosting for only 12 hrs. My toaster oven was set at around 500 degrees and the piece of dough did balloon this time.  I then removed the metal lid with Pepeís dough inside and slit the dough.  The toaster oven was then set at about 212 degrees F.  A little of Pepeís dough wanted to stick to the lid.  The final weight of Pepeís dough after the hydration test was 5.49 grams, with a couple of speckles of dough scattered around the small scale.

In the meantime, while I was waiting for the hydration test to be finished, I removed 15 oz. or 142 grams of the Pepeís dough ball for the gluten test.  The gluten after all the washing and dabbing with a paper towel weighed 35.14 grams.  I then placed the gluten ball in the paper towel for about 10 minutes, until I did a few other things.  I decided to weight the gluten ball and then it weighed 33.21 grams.  I am not to sure really when to weigh the gluten ball, or if enough water was patted out the first time with the paper towel.

I then tried to form the gluten mass into a ball.  Just from the short amount of time the gluten mass sat in the damp paper towel, it wanted to become very sticky.  Luckily it could be formed into a ball to be placed on the steel pan.  The gluten mass was baked on the steel baking pan in the oven for an hour at about 425 degrees F.  The baked gluten ball weighed 15.18 grams after the baking. After the baked gluten cooled I cut the bake gluten with a small scissors.  It amazes me how long a gluten ball takes to bake, when a regular dough never takes that long.  The gluten ball had looked baked well to me, but when it was cut there was a small part that was a little moist.  I wonder why a gluten ball takes so long to bake.

Norma,

Based on the results of the hydration test on the Pepe's dough, the water content of that dough is (10-5.49)/10 = 45.1%. You might recall that for a real MM dough and also the MM clone doughs, the corresponding number was around 40%. The 5.1% difference in water content perhaps explains why the Pepe's dough sample was easier to spread in the metal lid. It was simply more extensible than the MM doughs, both the real MM dough and our clones, because of the higher water content of the Pepe dough and, quite likely, the formula hydration. The higher water content of the Pepe dough would also explain why the dough sample had a tendency to stick to the metal lid. The MM doughs wouldn't stick to anything, even if you jumped up and down on the skins to get them to stick to your work surface.

The results of the gluten test will have to be considered once I play around with some possible baker's percents. Those results can't be compared with the MM gluten tests we conducted because the amount of flour in the Pepe's dough is different than in the MM doughs.

The reason why it takes so long to bake the gluten masses is because you are driving out most of the water content. Remember that for a generic vital wheat gluten, the water content that remains after it is dried is around 8.3%. By contrast, a pizza might retain around 85-90% of its weight during baking. If you took just a plain pizza skin without anything on it and baked it at 425 degrees F just until only 8.3% of its water remained (or the equivalent in your test), I suspect that it would take a good part of the day to drive out all but about 8.3% of the water.

BTW, I believe that you meant to say that you used 5 ounces of dough for the gluten test, not 15 ounces.

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2012, 08:39:07 PM »
Thanks for posting what a pound is in grams.  I would think Pepeís would have had the right weight on the plastic bag for Wal-Mart, but see they donít. 

Norma,

I suspect that the weight difference is within the accepted range of variations for frozen dough balls made by automated equipment. You will recall that we saw that with the different weights of the MM frozen dough balls that we were given by different MM employees. Also, we saw the same thing with the dough balls that Papa John's makes. The FDA understands these kinds of variations and accepts them.

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2012, 09:35:59 AM »
Norma,

Based on the results of the hydration test on the Pepe's dough, the water content of that dough is (10-5.49)/10 = 45.1%. You might recall that for a real MM dough and also the MM clone doughs, the corresponding number was around 40%. The 5.1% difference in water content perhaps explains why the Pepe's dough sample was easier to spread in the metal lid. It was simply more extensible than the MM doughs, both the real MM dough and our clones, because of the higher water content of the Pepe dough and, quite likely, the formula hydration. The higher water content of the Pepe dough would also explain why the dough sample had a tendency to stick to the metal lid. The MM doughs wouldn't stick to anything, even if you jumped up and down on the skins to get them to stick to your work surface.

The results of the gluten test will have to be considered once I play around with some possible baker's percents. Those results can't be compared with the MM gluten tests we conducted because the amount of flour in the Pepe's dough is different than in the MM doughs.

The reason why it takes so long to bake the gluten masses is because you are driving out most of the water content. Remember that for a generic vital wheat gluten, the water content that remains after it is dried is around 8.3%. By contrast, a pizza might retain around 85-90% of its weight during baking. If you took just a plain pizza skin without anything on it and baked it at 425 degrees F just until only 8.3% of its water remained (or the equivalent in your test), I suspect that it would take a good part of the day to drive out all but about 8.3% of the water.

BTW, I believe that you meant to say that you used 5 ounces of dough for the gluten test, not 15 ounces.

Peter
Norma,

I suspect that the weight difference is within the accepted range of variations for frozen dough balls made by automated equipment. You will recall that we saw that with the different weights of the MM frozen dough balls that we were given by different MM employees. Also, we saw the same thing with the dough balls that Papa John's makes. The FDA understands these kinds of variations and accepts them.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing the calculations from the results of the hydration test on the Pepeís dough.  I can understand that the difference in water content perhaps explains why the Pepeís dough piece was easier to spread in the metal lid. 

I also did have problems with the MM dough sticking to the metal lid in the hydration test, as I posted at Reply 1051 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168153.html#msg168153  I would guess it was the metal lid I used that caused the sticking issues.

I understand now why it took so long to bake the gluten masses.  Interesting that if a plain pizza skin without anything on it was baked at 425 degrees F it would take the better part of a day to drive out all but about 8.3% water.

I did mean to post that I used 5 ounces of dough for the gluten test.  I will correct that.

I can see that a weight difference is within the accepted range of variations for frozen dough balls made by automated equipment.  I do recall we saw that with the different weights of the MM dough balls that were given by different MM employees.

I will start defrosting the other Pepeís frozen dough ball today.

Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2012, 09:02:30 AM »
The Pepe's frozen dough ball weighed 463 grams when it was weighed.

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2012, 09:32:43 AM »
Norma,

When you use the Pepe's dough this week would you mind directing your attention to the degree of saltiness of the crust on the palate, using the rim of the pizza for this purpose? I have been doing some calculations on the Pepe's dough using the expanded dough calculating tool and I have been stymied on the numbers for the flour component of the dough, especially the numbers for the carbohydrates. Carbohydrates in this case are almost exclusively in the dough. There is a minuscule amount of carbohydrates in the yeast, and none in the salt. I think the problem may be due to the way that serving sizes are established for a piece of dough. The Nutrition Facts for the Pepe's dough specify eight servings for the Pepe's dough ball. My guess is that eight servings corresponds to eight slices of a pizza, which would be very common. However, the flour numbers for eight servings don't correlate with any flour numbers I have looked at. Consequently, I am going to direct my efforts to the results of the hydration bake test and the gluten mass test that you conducted. Those numbers are real numbers. If I can get a sense of the amount of salt used in the Pepe's dough, I think I may be able to start zeroing in on the baker's percents.

I don't have any idea at the moment on the type of yeast is used by Pepe's. Unfortunately, there is no way of determining that from the Nutrition Facts or any simple home-based test that I am aware of. What we do know is that there is more yeast by weight than the weight of salt. That is quite common for frozen doughs because freezing kills some of the yeast cells. To compensate for that loss, the amount of yeast used in the dough is increased at the outset. If fresh yeast is used, that means that I will have to take the water content of that yeast (around 68.8%) into account in doing my hydration test calculations. If we can get even a rough fix on the amount of salt, that alone might help us determine the amount and type of yeast (wet or dry) used in the Pepe's dough.

Preliminarily, I think I have an idea of the rough amount and type of flour used in the Pepe's dough, based almost entirely on the two tests you conducted. However, I don't want to become overly confident of my analysis at this point. I will await the results of your next Pepe's pizza.

Peter

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2012, 09:59:43 AM »
Norma,

When you use the Pepe's dough this week would you mind directing your attention to the degree of saltiness of the crust on the palate, using the rim of the pizza for this purpose? I have been doing some calculations on the Pepe's dough using the expanded dough calculating tool and I have been stymied on the numbers for the flour component of the dough, especially the numbers for the carbohydrates. Carbohydrates in this case are almost exclusively in the dough. There is a minuscule amount of carbohydrates in the yeast, and none in the salt. I think the problem may be due to the way that serving sizes are established for a piece of dough. The Nutrition Facts for the Pepe's dough specify eight servings for the Pepe's dough ball. My guess is that eight servings corresponds to eight slices of a pizza, which would be very common. However, the flour numbers for eight servings don't correlate with any flour numbers I have looked at. Consequently, I am going to direct my efforts to the results of the hydration bake test and the gluten mass test that you conducted. Those numbers are real numbers. If I can get a sense of the amount of salt used in the Pepe's dough, I think I may be able to start zeroing in on the baker's percents.

I don't have any idea at the moment on the type of yeast is used by Pepe's. Unfortunately, there is no way of determining that from the Nutrition Facts or any simple home-based test that I am aware of. What we do know is that there is more yeast by weight than the weight of salt. That is quite common for frozen doughs because freezing kills some of the yeast cells. To compensate for that loss, the amount of yeast used in the dough is increased at the outset. If fresh yeast is used, that means that I will have to take the water content of that yeast (around 68.8%) into account in doing my hydration test calculations. If we can get even a rough fix on the amount of salt, that alone might help us determine the amount and type of yeast (wet or dry) used in the Pepe's dough.

Preliminarily, I think I have an idea of the rough amount and type of flour used in the Pepe's dough, based almost entirely on the two tests you conducted. However, I don't want to become overly confident of my analysis at this point. I will await the results of your next Pepe's pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I will direct my attention to the degree of saltiness of the rim of the Pepeís pizza this week.  Good to hear if you can get a sense of the amount of salt used in the Pepeís dough, then you think you may be able to start zeroing in on the bakerís percent for salt. 

I know it would be hard to know what kind of yeast is used in Pepeís dough.  I also saw there was more yeast on the Nutrition Fact than salt and know that is quite common when freezing a dough. 

Interesting that you already have a preliminary idea of the rough amount of type of the flour used in Pepeís dough, just from the two tests I did. 

I wanted to ask you one other question.  If I wanted to make a pizza with the 463 grams from the weight of the recent Pepeís dough and wanted a TF of about 0.08, what size should I stretch the skin in inches.

Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2012, 10:33:24 AM »
I wanted to ask you one other question.  If I wanted to make a pizza with the 463 grams from the weight of the recent Pepeís dough and wanted a TF of about 0.08, what size should I stretch the skin in inches.

Norma,

It's two times the square root of (453/28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.08). I'd like you to take your desk calculator and perform the following operations, and tell me what you get:

1. In a series of consecutive operations, divide 453 by 28.35, then by 3.14159 and 0.08. You don't have to hit the equal (=) sign key after each entry. After the last entry, you can hit the = key.

2. Hit the square root key on your calculator. The square root symbol looks like this: http://www.roblox.com/the-square-root-sign-item?id=8315878.

3. Multiply the answer from step 2 by 2 and hit the = sign. .

Peter

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2012, 11:27:34 AM »
Norma,

It's two times the square root of (453/28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.08). I'd like you to take your desk calculator and perform the following operations, and tell me what you get:

1. In a series of consecutive operations, divide 453 by 28.35, then by 3.14159 and 0.08. You don't have to hit the equal (=) sign key after each entry. After the last entry, you can hit the = key.

2. Hit the square root key on your calculator. The square root symbol looks like this: http://www.roblox.com/the-square-root-sign-item?id=8315878.

3. Multiply the answer from step 2 by 2 and hit the = sign. .

Peter


Peter,

My desk calculator or my paper spitting calculator doesnít have the square roots symbol, but luckily my Android phone does.  This is the size pizza I got using the calculator on my Android cell 15.9049781398.  I can only hope that is right.

Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2012, 11:46:48 AM »

Peter,

My desk calculator or my paper spitting calculator doesnít have the square roots symbol, but luckily my Android phone does.  This is the size pizza I got using the calculator on my Android cell 15.9049781398.  I can only hope that is right.

Norma

Norma,

It might be my cheapo calculator, but I got roughly 15.95". But either number should work. In your case, I would just go with 16", to use a common size.

Now you know how to do the calculation ;D.

Peter

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2012, 12:04:03 PM »
Norma,

It might be my cheapo calculator, but I got roughly 15.95". But either number should work. In your case, I would just go with 16", to use a common size.

Now you know how to do the calculation ;D.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you roughly got 15.95Ē.  I will go with 16Ē.  I still donít understand the reasoning of how to do calculations for pizza sizes when using a certain weight of dough, but I am going to try and study about it. 

Thanks for your help!  :) I will get all the calculations understood someday, and sure will be happy I won't have to depend on other members for calculations.  ;D

Norma
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