Author Topic: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow  (Read 36554 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #225 on: February 28, 2012, 09:25:54 PM »
Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #226 on: February 28, 2012, 09:31:28 PM »
Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #227 on: February 28, 2012, 09:33:49 PM »
Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #228 on: February 28, 2012, 09:34:48 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #229 on: February 28, 2012, 09:35:59 PM »
Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #230 on: February 28, 2012, 09:37:44 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #231 on: February 28, 2012, 09:38:56 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #232 on: February 28, 2012, 09:40:03 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #233 on: February 28, 2012, 09:41:54 PM »
Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #234 on: February 28, 2012, 09:43:05 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #235 on: February 28, 2012, 09:43:47 PM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #236 on: February 28, 2012, 10:13:06 PM »
Norma,

From your photos, it looks like the two dough balls and pizzas tracked each other pretty much every step along the way. I'm glad for that. It gives me confidence in the value of the hydration bake test and the gluten mass test you conducted, and our calculations as well.

It sounds like the preferment Lehmann pizzas aren't going away quietly. But, whatever you decide to do, you know that you can make frozen Pepe's clone dough balls whenever you need them. Unfortunately, you can't store them indefinitely, although you are likely to do better than most with your non-defrost freezer at home.

Peter

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #237 on: February 28, 2012, 10:45:41 PM »
Norma,

From your photos, it looks like the two dough balls and pizzas tracked each other pretty much every step along the way. I'm glad for that. It gives me confidence in the value of the hydration bake test and the gluten mass test you conducted, and our calculations as well.

It sounds like the preferment Lehmann pizzas aren't going away quietly. But, whatever you decide to do, you know that you can make frozen Pepe's clone dough balls whenever you need them. Unfortunately, you can't store them indefinitely, although you are likely to do better than most with your non-defrost freezer at home.

Peter


Peter,

The two dough balls and pizzas did track each other well every step of the way.  It is good that it gives you confidence in the value of the hydration bake tests and the gluten mass tests. Hopefully, the tests will help in the future. Your calculations and being able to understand Nutrition Facts and being able to decide what to do was about perfect today. 

I really liked the Pepeís (2.0) clone today, but as I posted before, I think my customers still like the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.  I know the Pepeís clone and Pepeís pizza look a lot different than my regular preferment Lehmann dough market pizzas.  I was kinda hoping that customers would like the Pepeís clone pizza.  The Pepeís (2.0) dough is a lot easier to make and the flour would be cheaper. 

I do know that I would be able to use the Pepeís (2.0) clone dough and be able to freeze it fairly easily.  I forgot to post just how easily both of these dough balls opened today again.  They stretched to more than 16Ē before I knew it. 

Did you want me to do any other experiments on this thread?  I have enjoyed working on the Pepeís clones.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #238 on: February 29, 2012, 09:18:38 AM »
Did you want me to do any other experiments on this thread?  I have enjoyed working on the Pepeís clones.

Norma,

Given your recent reservations about the commercial viability of the Pepe's clones at market, it is up to you whether you might conduct more experiments. However, one experiment you might consider is trying an IDY version of the Pepe's clone dough. Another possibility might be to try the King Arthur all-purpose flour, but still using the cake yeast, to see if that works as well as the Better for Bread flour and if the numbers line up as well as they have with the BforB flour. I also wondered whether you might try a Pepe's clone pizza with one or more toppings to see if that might appeal to your customer base. For example, maybe a pepperoni pizza, which is still the most popular pizza in the U.S. according to the latest data, might be more enticing.

If you decide you would like to have an IDY version of the Pepe's clone dough, I can help you with that. All I would need to know is what weight of dough ball you would like. The last dough ball weight I used for the Pepe's 2.0 clone dough was 448 grams, whereas your last Pepe's dough was 457 grams. I don't think the difference is big enough to matter but we can use any weight that you would like for an IDY version. We could even calculate the thickness factor and make a dough ball big enough to make an 18" pizza. That size might be more impressive to your customers.

I, too, enjoyed the Pepe's clone experience. But, then again, success is always fun. It's failure that is a bummer.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 09:50:18 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #239 on: February 29, 2012, 10:17:52 AM »
Norma,

Given your recent reservations about the commercial viability of the Pepe's clones at market, it is up to you whether you might conduct more experiments. However, one experiment you might consider is trying an IDY version of the Pepe's clone dough. Another possibility might be to try the King Arthur all-purpose flour, but still using the cake yeast, to see if that works as well as the Better for Bread flour and if the numbers line up as well as they have with the BforB flour. I also wondered whether you might try a Pepe's clone pizza with one or more toppings to see if that might appeal to your customer base. For example, maybe a pepperoni pizza, which is still the most popular pizza in the U.S. according to the latest data, might be more enticing.

If you decide you would like to have an IDY version of the Pepe's clone dough, I can help you with that. All I would need to know is what weight of dough ball you would like. The last dough ball weight I used for the Pepe's 2.0 clone dough was 448 grams, whereas your last Pepe's dough was 457 grams. I don't think the difference is big enough to matter but we can use any weight that you would like for an IDY version. We could even calculate the thickness factor and make a dough ball big enough to make an 18" pizza. That size might be more impressive to your customers.

I, too, enjoyed the Pepe's clone experience. But, then again, success is always fun. It's failure that is a bummer.

Peter

Peter,

Although I havenít had enough customers being able to look at the Pepeís clones, I saw what my regular customers thought of the looks of them, (in the short amount of time the slices were in the heated cabinet) even though they werenít able to taste them. 

I would be interested in doing the experiments with an IDY version of the Pepeís clone and also could try a Pepeís clone with the KAAP with cake yeast using the (2.0) Pepeís clone formulation.  I could also add pepperoni to see if that appeals to my customers better.  I could try 18Ē pizzas with the IDY and the one with using KAAP and cake yeast. 

I also agree that success is fun and failure is a bummer, but the Pepeís clone sure didnít take long.

Thanks for your help in for the Pepeís clone.  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #240 on: February 29, 2012, 10:41:38 AM »
Norma,

Iis there a particular dough ball weight that you would like to use for the basic IDY version for the same pizza size? Also, it looks like your pizza sizes are already 18". Is that correct?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:34:53 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #241 on: February 29, 2012, 12:37:39 PM »
Norma,

Iis there a particular dough ball weight that you would like to use for the basic IDY version for the same pizza size? Also, it looks like your pizza sizes are already 18". Is that correct?

Peter

Peter,

I will leave it up to you what dough ball weight to use with the IDY version for the same pizza size.  You are correct that the pizzas are almost 18Ē already.  I didnít mean for that to happen, but the doughs opened up so easily.

Norma
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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #242 on: February 29, 2012, 01:19:19 PM »
Norma,

I decided to stick with the 448-gram dough ball weight so that I could compare the IDY numbers with the numbers for the Pepe's 2.0 version. In coming up with the IDY version, rather than using the rough 1:3 conversion of cake yeast to IDY, for the sake of accuracy I decided to use the more precise yeast conversion table as given at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm to convert the amount of cake yeast that I used for the Pepe's 2.0 to IDY. All of the metrics for the IDY version, which is presented below and called Pepe's 3.0, are essentially the same as for Pepe's 2.0 except for the total amount of carbohydrates. The carbohydrate content of the IDY version is somewhat lower than for the Pepe's 2.0 cake yeast version because of the use of IDY, which has a lower carbohydrate value than cake yeast. However, the differences shouldn't be noticeable. The dough from a hydration standpoint and the handling qualities should be essentially the same as with Pepe's 2.0.

Pepe's Clone Dough Formulation, IDY Version (3.0)
Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Water (58.7%):
IDY (0.876%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (161.326%):
277.7 g  |  9.8 oz | 0.61 lbs
163.01 g  |  5.75 oz | 0.36 lbs
2.43 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
4.86 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
448 g | 15.8 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single, approximately 18" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Since Pepe's 2.0 is also capable of making a roughly 18" pizza, for a KAAP version you should be able to use Pepe's 2.0 just as it is but substitute the King Arthur all-purpose flour for the Better for Bread flour.

The last Pepe's clone dough had a corresponding thickness factor value of (448/28.35)/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.0621. That is quite a low value. At some point you might want to up that value to something more representative of a NY street style pizza, possibly 0.075. Maybe your customers are viewing your Pepe's clone pizzas as being on the skimpy side, especially when compared with the preferment Lehmann pizzas with the larger rims and thicker crusts (larger thickness factor).

If there is a version or size that you would like to try that I have not already covered from a dough formulation standpoint, please let me know.

Peter

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #243 on: February 29, 2012, 02:58:02 PM »
Norma,

I decided to stick with the 448-gram dough ball weight so that I could compare the IDY numbers with the numbers for the Pepe's 2.0 version. In coming up with the IDY version, rather than using the rough 1:3 conversion of cake yeast to IDY, for the sake of accuracy I decided to use the more precise yeast conversion table as given at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm to convert the amount of cake yeast that I used for the Pepe's 2.0 to IDY. All of the metrics for the IDY version, which is presented below and called Pepe's 3.0, are essentially the same as for Pepe's 2.0 except for the total amount of carbohydrates. The carbohydrate content of the IDY version is somewhat lower than for the Pepe's 2.0 cake yeast version because of the use of IDY, which has a lower carbohydrate value than cake yeast. However, the differences shouldn't be noticeable. The dough from a hydration standpoint and the handling qualities should be essentially the same as with Pepe's 2.0.

Pepe's Clone Dough Formulation, IDY Version (3.0)
Better for Bread Flour (100%):
Water (58.7%):
IDY (0.876%):
Salt (1.75%):
Total (161.326%):
277.7 g  |  9.8 oz | 0.61 lbs
163.01 g  |  5.75 oz | 0.36 lbs
2.43 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
4.86 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
448 g | 15.8 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single, approximately 18" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Since Pepe's 2.0 is also capable of making a roughly 18" pizza, for a KAAP version you should be able to use Pepe's 2.0 just as it is but substitute the King Arthur all-purpose flour for the Better for Bread flour.

The last Pepe's clone dough had a corresponding thickness factor value of (448/28.35)/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.0621. That is quite a low value. At some point you might want to up that value to something more representative of a NY street style pizza, possibly 0.075. Maybe your customers are viewing your Pepe's clone pizzas as being on the skimpy side, especially when compared with the preferment Lehmann pizzas with the larger rims and thicker crusts (larger thickness factor).

If there is a version or size that you would like to try that I have not already covered from a dough formulation standpoint, please let me know.

Peter

Peter,

It is fine that you decided to stick with the 448 grams dough ball weight, so you could compare the IDY numbers with numbers for the Pepeís 2.0 version.  I had forgot about the precise yeast conversion table at the artisan.  That is a good tool.  I will have to remember about that tool when I want to do yeast conversions for accuracy. 

Thanks for setting forth a Pepeís 3.0 IDY formulation.  I think when I do use the dough calculating tool to use a TF and also a bowl residue factor I will up the TF 0.075.  I didnít know the TF I was using was so low because of the dough ball opening so easily. I will try to also be careful this coming week when opening the Pepeís 3.0 dough ball so it will stay at exactly 18Ē. I can see my customers wouldnít find a Pepeís clone as attractive as the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas because of the rim size and much lower TF.  I am not sure really what my customers like in terms of TF for a NY style pizza.  Maybe sometime I might ask them about that.  I believe my preferment Lehmann dough pizzas are also a little lower in TF than I thought, because usually the skin almost fills my wooden peel.

Norma
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Offline Ev

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #244 on: March 02, 2012, 01:32:12 PM »
Norma

Last night I baked one of each variety dough balls that our friend Jeff so kindly brought us to try out. The plain pizza is the plain dough and the pepperoni pizza is the wheat dough. My family and I thought they were pretty good but not great as you may expect. I'm not really sure what I didn't like about them other than to say they just didn't taste "fresh". After thawing and resting in the fridge for almost three days, they were very easy to handle and opened very easily. The directions on the bag said to cook at 400 degrees! I compromised at 475. Baked for 6 or 7 minutes.   

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #245 on: March 02, 2012, 01:40:33 PM »
Last night I baked one of each variety dough balls that our friend Jeff so kindly brought us to try out. The plain pizza is the plain dough and the pepperoni pizza is the wheat dough. My family and I thought they were pretty good but not great as you may expect. I'm not really sure what I didn't like about them other than to say they just didn't taste "fresh". After thawing and resting in the fridge for almost three days, they were very easy to handle and opened very easily. The directions on the bag said to cook at 400 degrees! I compromised at 475. Baked for 6 or 7 minutes.   

Steve,

Thanks for posting your results and pictures of the Salís frozen dough balls that Jeff and Mark kindly brought to us.  :) Do you think the bake temperature had anything to do with the taste of the curst or do you think the crust just didnít taste fresh?  I know you bake a lot of pizzas at home and your NY pizzas are great!  Which did you like the best, the plain dough or the wheat dough?  Interesting that there isnít more browning on the bottom of the crust.

The pizzas do look very good though!  Looks like you have nice crumb structure.

Norma
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Offline crystaldragon

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #246 on: March 02, 2012, 02:03:35 PM »
Norma, I think that the lack of browning in Steve's pizza may have been caused by the oven temperature and total time in the oven. I suspect that a higher temperature or a longer bake time probably would have resulted in more browning.

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #247 on: March 02, 2012, 02:42:08 PM »
CD, you may be right about that. I usually bake at 550 and never take more than 5 or 6 minutes. I may have left the second pie in a little longer and gotten a little more color.
 Norma, I can't really say what I didn't like about it. Not bad, just not what I'm used to, I guess.

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #248 on: March 02, 2012, 06:30:34 PM »
Norma, I think that the lack of browning in Steve's pizza may have been caused by the oven temperature and total time in the oven. I suspect that a higher temperature or a longer bake time probably would have resulted in more browning.


crystaldragon,

I think you and Steve are right that if he would have used a higher bake temperature and less time in bake he results might have been different.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: The Mystery Dough Pizza for Tomorrow
« Reply #249 on: March 02, 2012, 06:38:39 PM »
CD, you may be right about that. I usually bake at 550 and never take more than 5 or 6 minutes. I may have left the second pie in a little longer and gotten a little more color.
 Norma, I can't really say what I didn't like about it. Not bad, just not what I'm used to, I guess.

Steve,

I know you usually bake at about 550 degrees F or a little higher.  Thanks for posting that you really canít say what you didnít like about the Salís pizzas.  My Pepeís frozen dough ball instructions say to bake at 450 degrees F too, but I didnít do the bakes at that temperature.  I wonder what temperature Jeff used to bake his Salís pizzas.  I know he said he used the 16 oz. dough ball for a 13Ē pizza because that is how big he said his pizza stone was. 

I know you are used to your pies and they are good!  :)

Norma
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