Author Topic: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow  (Read 43503 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #200 on: May 04, 2012, 11:55:49 AM »
Very interesting experiment. I'm looking forward to tasting the results! :-D

Steve,

Glad you think the soaker method is an interesting experiment.  You will be taste testing the final results.  I know you love Sicilian pizzas, so this week will be your week!   :-D

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #201 on: May 05, 2012, 09:14:39 AM »
This is the formulation I used for the KAAP and GM Full Strength flours for the soaker as the preferments for the 8Ēx10Ē blue steel pans. My small scale was used to weigh out the flour and water for the soakers. I made the two soakers for the final dough after I returned from market yesterday and also mixed the same formulation I have been using for the Sicilian dough.  I used the same amount of IDY, but thought I would try to get a lower dough temperature to try a 3 day cold ferment, so I used cold water out of the fridge.  The final dough temperature was 72.7 degrees F.  I used the same mixing method as before.

Picture of the 2 soakers that are in the fridge for 4 days, before the final doughs are made, and the regular Sicilian dough ball that is going to be cold fermented for 4 days.

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #202 on: May 05, 2012, 03:05:03 PM »
This morning I made up my Sicilian dough following the formula previously outlined.  I decided to use the food processor today for the mixing, 25 pulses total till the dough was mixed and showing some moderate gluten development. My final dough temp after mixing was 73.4F. Regarding the soaker, I noticed that it did taste moderately sweet and nutty, and not like a plain flour and water paste. The soaker showed no signs of breaking down after 4 days. I did see a few air bubbles in the soaker but there were not enough to tell if it was due to any sort of flora or just residual air bubbles in the soaker
I am not sure what time I am going to bake tomorrow, so I will either follow-up tomorrow night or Monday morning.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #203 on: May 05, 2012, 03:46:22 PM »
Jim,

It is very interesting that you noticed the soaker did taste moderately sweet and nutty and not like plain flour and water after they are mixed.  I wonder if that will affect the final taste of the crust.

Will be looking forward to your results.

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #204 on: May 06, 2012, 11:27:22 PM »
Tonight I baked off Normaís Sicilian with 25% soaker added in. The sauce was an uncooked tomato sauce and cheeses were a blend of fresh mozz pearls (not marshmallows) and young pecorino. The pie was baked off at 550F.

Getting straight to business, I found that the soaker did not add a strong flavor, as with some preferments. However, the addition of the soaker was noticeable without being bready. It imparted a slightly sweet, nutty and mature flavor only achieved through a long and low temp fermentation. Is this a flavor improvement on the quick doughs or overnight doughs? Absolutely.

 As shown in the photos below, I found no noticeable defects crust due to the addition of the soaker. The dough had an open hole structure and was light and airy.

Would I say that it is superior to a preferment methods using yeast, probably not? I will let Norma and David comment further about those aspects, as they are both using direct comparison methods with preferment doughs.  However, I do think this dough had a demonstrably mature flavor, with no noticeable consequences to the structure or texture of the crust.

As a final comment, Norma this formula of yours rocks. L&Bís can eat their heart out, this is one of the best tasting Sicilians Iíve had, seriously. With or without the soaker, this is my new ďgo toĒ Sicilian recipe.  Fantastic job getting this far, your customers are going to love this pie, and I canít wait to see what your findings are.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #205 on: May 07, 2012, 12:00:45 AM »
Tonight I baked off Normaís Sicilian with 25% soaker added in. The sauce was an uncooked tomato sauce and cheeses were a blend of fresh mozz pearls (not marshmallows) and young pecorino. The pie was baked off at 550F.

Getting straight to business, I found that the soaker did not add a strong flavor, as with some preferments. However, the addition of the soaker was noticeable without being bready. It imparted a slightly sweet, nutty and mature flavor only achieved through a long and low temp fermentation. Is this a flavor improvement on the quick doughs or overnight doughs? Absolutely.

 As shown in the photos below, I found no noticeable defects crust due to the addition of the soaker. The dough had an open hole structure and was light and airy.

Would I say that it is superior to a preferment methods using yeast, probably not? I will let Norma and David comment further about those aspects, as they are both using direct comparison methods with preferment doughs.  However, I do think this dough had a demonstrably mature flavor, with no noticeable consequences to the structure or texture of the crust.

As a final comment, Norma this formula of yours rocks. L&Bís can eat their heart out, this is one of the best tasting Sicilians Iíve had, seriously. With or without the soaker, this is my new ďgo toĒ Sicilian recipe.  Fantastic job getting this far, your customers are going to love this pie, and I canít wait to see what your findings are.

Jim,

I sure was anxious to see how your bake went.  I find your results very interesting when using a soaker with the formulation I have been using.  I wonder why the soaker imparts a slightly sweet, nutty and mature flavor.  That is great news!

I can see how light and airy your Sicilian pie was.  Looks terrific!  ;D I am glad you found a new ďgo toĒ Sicilian recipe. 

Thanks so much for doing the test and coming up with the idea to use a soaker.  :)

What kind of oil did you add to oil your pan?  Your bottom crust looks really good.

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #206 on: May 07, 2012, 08:19:52 AM »
Thanks for the kind words Norma. I would suspect that the flavors imparted from the soaker are due to enzymatic activity and the break down starches and proteins in the flour and water mixture over several days. In the absence IDY or even a sourdough culture, I am guessing that the true flavors coming from the grain were able to shine through.  

The oil I used was a 3 to 1 mixture of safflower and olive oil.  Safflower is relatively bland tasting and has a higher smoking point than other oils, so it doesn't break down as easily under high heat. When mixed with the olive oil, I can retain the olive flavor that I enjoy while cooking at higher heats.
I am looking forward to hear your thoughts about the soaker and how it compares to the preferment.

Jim
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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2012, 08:36:12 AM »
Jim,

Thanks for explaining why you think the soaker gave the crust a different taste.

I might have to try a blend of safflower and olive oil at some point to oil the pans.
   
I am anxious to see how the bakes go tomorrow since you posted your results.

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #208 on: May 07, 2012, 08:43:43 AM »
Jimmyg

Thanks for the update, glad you enjoy your Sicilian, a style which often takes a back seat here at the pizza forum. I'm a little behind on this experiment simply because I just can't eat enough pizza to keep up. I still have leftovers from last week, so later today I will make my soakers and begin the journey.  I might have missed it, but can you tell me how long your bake time was? I apparently cook my Sicilians a little longer then most, my time is usually around 22 at 475=500. I also get a little more darkening on my doughs. I use a very heavy Chicago Metallics pan, one which appears to be both darker and thicker then the one you picture in your above photos. Your crumb structure is slightly more open then mine, the believe that is because you hydration is slightly higher and the fact that you used a food processor. Doughs prepared in a food processor typically will get better rise then my hand mixing because the dough is receiving much greater aeration with the food processor. Aeration greatly enhances fermentation.
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #209 on: May 07, 2012, 10:10:18 AM »
dmc,
Thanks. I completely agree with you, the Sicilian often take a back seat to most other styles. In my opinion, it is arguably one of the most difficult pizza styles to master and also one of the most delicious pizza styles when properly executed.

Regrettably, I did not time this this bake. I thought about it half way through the baking process but by that time it was too late. I would ball park this bake between 13-16 mins but don't hold me to this number.

Normally, I do all my mixing by hand too. However, I was making bialys, as well as two other pies and I was feeling lazy so I let the machine do all the work for me. 

Don't worry about being behind. When you get to it, let us know how it turned out. I would hate to burn you out on pizza.

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #210 on: May 07, 2012, 10:56:16 AM »
The regular formulation that I usually use for the Sicilian pie with a one day ferment, looks like it is fermenting okay for a 4 day cold ferment even with the same amount of IDY.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #211 on: May 07, 2012, 10:59:27 AM »
The two soakers, one with KAAP and one with GM Full Strength flour, both tasted a little sweet and nutty, like Jim posted his did.  I had tasted them right after mixing the flours and water and the taste has changed from a 3 day cold ferment.  I was surprised when I mixed both final doughs.  I would have thought the KAAP with the soaker would have felt more hydrated, but it felt less hydrated then the soaker dough with GM Full Strength.

Both dough balls were mixed the same as always and both have about the same final dough temperatures.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #212 on: May 07, 2012, 11:00:09 AM »
Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #213 on: May 07, 2012, 04:02:54 PM »
Norma,
I am glad you found the soaker to have similar flavors as I had experienced. That is interesting that you found that the KAAP soaker felt less hydrated than the GM soaker. I too noticed that the soaker, even at 100% hydration, was stiffer than I would have expected. In fact, I was able to pick up the whole mass with a spoon without it sliding off. In any case, I look forward to seeing what you and Steve think of the soaker dough and how it compares with the prefermented dough.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #214 on: May 07, 2012, 05:55:34 PM »
Norma,
I am glad you found the soaker to have similar flavors as I had experienced. That is interesting that you found that the KAAP soaker felt less hydrated than the GM soaker. I too noticed that the soaker, even at 100% hydration, was stiffer than I would have expected. In fact, I was able to pick up the whole mass with a spoon without it sliding off. In any case, I look forward to seeing what you and Steve think of the soaker dough and how it compares with the prefermented dough.

Jim,

I didnít try to pick up the soakers with a spoon and just put the final dough water into the plastic containers and stirred before adding it to the mixer. 

When I took both soaker dough balls to market today, the GM Full Strength dough was starting to flatten some like a pancake and the KAAP soaker dough was still holding its shape pretty well. 

In addition to Steve and me tasting the pies, there also will be taste testers.  They know what my Sicilian pies have tasted like so far.  I will see if they can tell any difference without telling them I did anything different.

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #215 on: May 08, 2012, 09:26:23 AM »
Norma & Jimmyg

I made my soakers this morning using Jimmy's formula of 48g. @ of flour and water. I made one with KAAP flour and one with GM Better for Bread. Tomorrow, I will also make a straight mix dough using KAAP, at the same measurements and hydration. This will be cold fermented for 3 days, thus all three doughs will be ready to bake on Saturday. I will be able to compare the soakers with a long cold fermented dough, and I will also be able to compare the KAAP dough to the GM B for B dough.
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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #216 on: May 08, 2012, 08:16:33 PM »
Three doughs... :o That is a lot of pizza. I sure hope your kids are home this weekend to help you eat your left overs. In any case, I look forward to what your thoughts are about the soaker.
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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #217 on: May 08, 2012, 09:43:41 PM »
Norma & Jimmyg

I made my soakers this morning using Jimmy's formula of 48g. @ of flour and water. I made one with KAAP flour and one with GM Better for Bread. Tomorrow, I will also make a straight mix dough using KAAP, at the same measurements and hydration. This will be cold fermented for 3 days, thus all three doughs will be ready to bake on Saturday. I will be able to compare the soakers with a long cold fermented dough, and I will also be able to compare the KAAP dough to the GM B for B dough.

Dave,

3 doughs is a lot of doughs, but I can understand why you are doing the tests.  Best of luck!  ;D

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #218 on: May 09, 2012, 08:25:29 AM »
 Maybe I'll set up a little stand in front of my house and sell slices!  :-D :-D :-D
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #219 on: May 09, 2012, 09:09:51 AM »
Maybe I'll set up a little stand in front of my house and sell slices!  :-D :-D :-D

Dave,

Lol!  :-D  Seriously, I think they would sell well!  ;D

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #220 on: May 09, 2012, 09:59:38 AM »
Norma

I just finished making my KAAP dough which will be cold fermented for three days, for comparison to the soaker doughs. I was a little surprised to find that the dough, at 67% hydration, was not as wet as I thought it might be. The KAAP flour is a bit heavier textured then the AP flour I have been using (Adirondack). Will be interested to see what the final dough will yield. Now I'm even thinking that after we finish with this round of experimentation, I'll probably do a comparison of the KAAP flour to my Adirondack AP flour.
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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #221 on: May 09, 2012, 11:08:26 AM »
Norma

I just finished making my KAAP dough which will be cold fermented for three days, for comparison to the soaker doughs. I was a little surprised to find that the dough, at 67% hydration, was not as wet as I thought it might be. The KAAP flour is a bit heavier textured then the AP flour I have been using (Adirondack). Will be interested to see what the final dough will yield. Now I'm even thinking that after we finish with this round of experimentation, I'll probably do a comparison of the KAAP flour to my Adirondack AP flour.

Dave,

I was also surprised when using the KAAP at 67% hydration in the soaker dough that the dough didnít feel like 67% hydration. 

If you look at the Master Gluten Mass list that Peter posted at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661 you can see KAAP does have a decent amount of protein.

Norma

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #222 on: May 09, 2012, 11:15:14 AM »
The two soaker doughs were put into the two steel pans at the same time, left to proof for the same amount of time and baked at the same time.  I could taste a small difference in the soaker dough Sicilian pies, but Steve couldnít.  I could detect a faint nutty and sweet taste in the crust.  My other taste testers couldnít tell any difference from my other Sicilian pies that I made before.  Steve and I did like the Sicilian soaker pie made with the GM Full Strength flour better than the one with the KAAP, but my taste testers couldnít tell any difference.  I donít know if the amount of soaker preferment would be upped in that would make any difference or not.  The soaker pies were very good.

The bake times for the larger Sicilian pie was different than for the smaller pies.

The four day cold fermented Sicilian dough with the GM Full Strength flour was the much better pizza, as Dave predicted it would be.  :chef: There was a much better taste in the crust that Steve and I could detect, but my other taste testers couldnít really tell the difference.  They just said it was a really good Sicilian pizza. 

There were different people that commented on the Sicilian slices that were sitting out.  We told those people that they were just experiments, but some wanted to buy some slices.  We did sell some slices, but Steve said get those slices put away, because he wanted to take them home.

A fairly large amount of corn oil was used to grease all the pans.  I need to get better in judging how much to open the dough balls for a Sicilian pie, because I open them too far for the size of the steel pans.  I guess that is something I will learn over time.

The crumb on the large Sicilian pie was very good.  It was very light with a nice crunch on the bottom crust and really moist and in the crumb. 

Since trying to sell the clone MM pies and them being a flop in not to many people being interested in them, maybe the Sicilian pies will do better.  At least so far more people seem interested in them and they have only been sitting out for a short while.

Norma

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #223 on: May 09, 2012, 11:16:28 AM »
Norma

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #224 on: May 09, 2012, 11:17:42 AM »
Norma


 

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