Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 54692 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #360 on: July 11, 2012, 06:49:28 AM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #361 on: July 11, 2012, 06:50:28 AM »
Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #362 on: July 11, 2012, 06:51:30 AM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #363 on: July 11, 2012, 03:23:46 PM »
Norma,

Over at the Mellow Mushroom thread, at Reply 1755 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg195844.html#msg195844, you indicated that you wanted to use a sweet white sorghum syrup produced by Briess in one of your regular Lehmann doughs. You reproduced the spec sheet for that product at Reply 1750 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg195574.html#msg195574.

The Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is unlike any I have studied to date. As the spec sheet for that product indicates, it comprises (on an as-is basis), 5% glucose, 35% maltose, 13% maltotriose, and 23% higher saccharides. As you can see from the sucrose equivalency chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, glucose is about three-quarters as sweet as sucrose and maltose is about a third as sweet as sucrose. I did some further research on the maltotriose and read that that sweetener, which is called a trisaccharide, is about 30% as sweet as sucrose. The higher saccharides, or polysaccharides, have little sweetness. An example of a polysaccharide is cellulose.

Yeast likes glucose, which is a simple sugar, and uses it for fermentation. As described in the article on Sugar Transformations (Rosada) at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm, maltose gets degraded into glucose by the maltase enzyme. As best I can tell from my research on the maltotriose, it contains glucose molecules but I believe that they are in a form that is not fermented by yeast to produce carbon dioxide and alcohol but rather is used in yeast reproduction. So, it appears that the simple sugars that are fermentable are the glucose and maltose that is degraded to glucose.

I was about to do a sucrose equivalency calculation when I discovered that the spec sheet you posted says, under SENSORY CHARACTERISTICS, that the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is 55 on the sucrose scale. I take that to mean that the Briess product is 55% as sweet as sucrose. If that is correct, that would mean that in a Lehmann dough formulation calling for the use of sucrose, you would use almost double the amount of the Briess sorghum syrup, by weight, to get the equivalent sweetness. However, if you are using a small amount of sucrose to begin with, you are unlikely to detect sweetness in the finished crust when using almost double that in the form of the Briess sorghum syrup. Of course, that may not be a concern since it has not been an objective to have a sweet Lehmann crust.

What I cannot answer at this point is whether almost double the amount of the Briess sorghum syrup is enough to promote fermentation at a rate that will allow you to make and use the dough in accordance with the timetable you need at market, given that about 46% of the Briess product may not be fermentable. You might need to use more than double the amount of the Briess sorghum product, or you might need to increase the amount of yeast to speed up the fermentation, or possibly a combination of both. Increasing the amount of the Briess product by several percent would not be the end of the world since you would have to use quite a bit of it before it would show up as detectable sweetness in the finshed crust. So, if you are using say, 1% sucrose now, you might try using three times that in your Lehmann dough formulation. To test that number, you might ask Steve King at Briess what he would suggest as a percent of the Briess sorghum syrup to use for a pizza dough. Or you can simply do a test dough and see what happens. It appears that the Briess sorghum syrup is about 20.5% water, so technically you would want to adjust the formula hydration to account for that water. However, at the amounts of the sorghum syrup you would be using, I would imagine that the amount of water is small and would not perturbate the formula hydration to the point where the hydration would be increased by an amount that would lead to an overly extensible dough. But, if you want, we can always adjust the formula hydration once you decide on what you would like to do.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #364 on: July 11, 2012, 06:32:34 PM »
Norma,

Over at the Mellow Mushroom thread, at Reply 1755 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg195844.html#msg195844, you indicated that you wanted to use a sweet white sorghum syrup produced by Briess in one of your regular Lehmann doughs. You reproduced the spec sheet for that product at Reply 1750 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg195574.html#msg195574.

The Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is unlike any I have studied to date. As the spec sheet for that product indicates, it comprises (on an as-is basis), 5% glucose, 35% maltose, 13% maltotriose, and 23% higher saccharides. As you can see from the sucrose equivalency chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, glucose is about three-quarters as sweet as sucrose and maltose is about a third as sweet as sucrose. I did some further research on the maltotriose and read that that sweetener, which is called a trisaccharide, is about 30% as sweet as sucrose. The higher saccharides, or polysaccharides, have little sweetness. An example of a polysaccharide is cellulose.

Yeast likes glucose, which is a simple sugar, and uses it for fermentation. As described in the article on Sugar Transformations (Rosada) at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm, maltose gets degraded into glucose by the maltase enzyme. As best I can tell from my research on the maltotriose, it contains glucose molecules but I believe that they are in a form that is not fermented by yeast to produce carbon dioxide and alcohol but rather is used in yeast reproduction. So, it appears that the simple sugars that are fermentable are the glucose and maltose that is degraded to glucose.

I was about to do a sucrose equivalency calculation when I discovered that the spec sheet you posted says, under SENSORY CHARACTERISTICS, that the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is 55 on the sucrose scale. I take that to mean that the Briess product is 55% as sweet as sucrose. If that is correct, that would mean that in a Lehmann dough formulation calling for the use of sucrose, you would use almost double the amount of the Briess sorghum syrup, by weight, to get the equivalent sweetness. However, if you are using a small amount of sucrose to begin with, you are unlikely to detect sweetness in the finished crust when using almost double that in the form of the Briess sorghum syrup. Of course, that may not be a concern since it has not been an objective to have a sweet Lehmann crust.

What I cannot answer at this point is whether almost double the amount of the Briess sorghum syrup is enough to promote fermentation at a rate that will allow you to make and use the dough in accordance with the timetable you need at market, given that about 46% of the Briess product may not be fermentable. You might need to use more than double the amount of the Briess sorghum product, or you might need to increase the amount of yeast to speed up the fermentation, or possibly a combination of both. Increasing the amount of the Briess product by several percent would not be the end of the world since you would have to use quite a bit of it before it would show up as detectable sweetness in the finshed crust. So, if you are using say, 1% sucrose now, you might try using three times that in your Lehmann dough formulation. To test that number, you might ask Steve King at Briess what he would suggest as a percent of the Briess sorghum syrup to use for a pizza dough. Or you can simply do a test dough and see what happens. It appears that the Briess sorghum syrup is about 20.5% water, so technically you would want to adjust the formula hydration to account for that water. However, at the amounts of the sorghum syrup you would be using, I would imagine that the amount of water is small and would not perturbate the formula hydration to the point where the hydration would be increased by an amount that would lead to an overly extensible dough. But, if you want, we can always adjust the formula hydration once you decide on what you would like to do.

Peter


Peter,

You are right that I would like to try the Briess white sorghum syrup in a Lehmann dough to see what happens.  The Briess sweet white sorghum syrup seemed very different to me and that is why I requested a sample. 

Thank you for studying the spec sheet for the Briess white sorghum syrup and explaining it to me.  I never heard of maltotriose.  I will have to look that up on Google.  I did not know that an example of a polysaccharide is cellulose. 

Thanks for going over the article again on Sugar Transformations by Rosada and how you think it applies to the Briess white sorghum syrup with the sugars that are fermented in that product probably would be the glucose and maltose that is degraded to glucose. 

I will shoot an email to Steve at Briess and ask him if the Briess white sorghum syrup is 55 % as sweet as sucrose.  I also will ask Steve King what he would suggest as a percent of the Briess sorghum syrup to use for pizza dough.     

I donít understand why more of the Breiss white sorghum syrup would be needed to be added more than by double the amount of sugar, since sugar really canít be converted for the yeast in one day like I have been doing.  I am misunderstanding something?  I am only using .75% sugar now in the Lehmann dough formulation for market and 61% hydration.  I donít think the amount of sugar I am now using in the Lehmann dough is doing anything.  Why would any certain amount of the Briess sorghum syrup be needed if the same amount of yeast is used for a one day cold ferment?  Do you think that maybe the Briess white sorghum syrup could give me a better flavor in the crust is a higher percent of the Briess syrup is used?   

If I donít get any answers from Steve, I will take your advice on what to try whatever you suggest.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #365 on: July 11, 2012, 07:35:40 PM »
Peter,

I donít know if your research turned up this article about processing of starch with sweeteners or not.  I sure donít understand it, but maybe you might if you didnít already read it.  I donít know how this applies or not to the Briess syrup.

http://www.amano-enzyme.co.jp/eng/productuse/starch.html

I did sent Steve King an email and asked him some questions.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #366 on: July 11, 2012, 08:28:16 PM »
I donít understand why more of the Breiss white sorghum syrup would be needed to be added more than by double the amount of sugar, since sugar really canít be converted for the yeast in one day like I have been doing.  I am misunderstanding something?  I am only using .75% sugar now in the Lehmann dough formulation for market and 61% hydration.  I donít think the amount of sugar I am now using in the Lehmann dough is doing anything.  Why would any certain amount of the Briess sorghum syrup be needed if the same amount of yeast is used for a one day cold ferment?  Do you think that maybe the Briess white sorghum syrup could give me a better flavor in the crust is a higher percent of the Briess syrup is used?   

Norma,

Those are all good questions, which is one of the reasons why I suggested that you get suggestions from Briess. But, let me attempt to explain my thinking.

As you know, yeast consumes only simple sugars. Sucrose, or ordinary table sugar, is a disaccharide and, as such, has to be broken down into glucose and fructose before the yeast can use them. That breakdown can take place by acids, heat or, commercially, by using an invertase enzyme. If there is enough sugar added to the dough, it can last a few days. And whatever sugar is not converted to simple sugars becomes available to contribute to crust coloration through caramelization. At the same time as sucrose is being metabolized, the amylase enzymes work on the complex starches to convert them to simple sugars, as is discussed in the theartisan.net article I referenced. So, the yeast will be fed with simple sugars from the sucrose and also from amylase performance.

As you also know, sucrose isn't the only form of sweetener that can be used in a dough. You can use honey, molasses, maple syrup, agave nectar, light and dark brown sugars, dry and wet nondiastatic malts, regular sorghum syrup and, now, the sweet white sorghum syrup. One of the difficulties is determining how much of each of these forms of sweeteners is needed to replace a given amount of sucrose in a dough formulation such that you end up fermentation-wise at the same place by the time you need to use the dough. Each of the foregoing forms of sweeteners contains its own, and different mix, of saccharides. And yeast does not metabolize all simple sugars at the same rate. At the same time, you may be trying to achieve a particular degree of sweetness and color in the finished crust. So, you have a balancing act to go through, which is usually resolved through a series of tests. In the case of the Briess sweet sorghum syrup, you have essentially a small amount of glucose and a moderate amount of maltose that eventually gets converted to glucose. What I don't know is what amount of the Briess product is needed to feed the yeast so that you can use the dough when you need it. Solving the sweetness problem is easy (I think) if the Briess product is indeed about 55% as sweet as sucrose. If color of the finished crust is also a consideration, then you have to decide how much of the Briess product is needed to get the desired color in the finished crust. Remember, also, that the Maillard reactions require reducing/simple sugars to produce crust coloration. If there are any unconverted sugars in the dough at the time of baking, they can contribute to browning through caramelization.

In your case, with less than one percent sucrose in your Lehmann dough formulation, I would not expect a "wow" factor through the use of the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup as a substitute. I have never had a sweet white sorghum syrup so I can't say whether it will produce a better or sweeter crust flavor. That is something that you will tell us if you decide to give the Briess product a try.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #367 on: July 11, 2012, 10:20:15 PM »
Norma,

Those are all good questions, which is one of the reasons why I suggested that you get suggestions from Briess. But, let me attempt to explain my thinking.

As you know, yeast consumes only simple sugars. Sucrose, or ordinary table sugar, is a disaccharide and, as such, has to be broken down into glucose and fructose before the yeast can use them. That breakdown can take place by acids, heat or, commercially, by using an invertase enzyme. If there is enough sugar added to the dough, it can last a few days. And whatever sugar is not converted to simple sugars becomes available to contribute to crust coloration through caramelization. At the same time as sucrose is being metabolized, the amylase enzymes work on the complex starches to convert them to simple sugars, as is discussed in the theartisan.net article I referenced. So, the yeast will be fed with simple sugars from the sucrose and also from amylase performance.

As you also know, sucrose isn't the only form of sweetener that can be used in a dough. You can use honey, molasses, maple syrup, agave nectar, light and dark brown sugars, dry and wet nondiastatic malts, regular sorghum syrup and, now, the sweet white sorghum syrup. One of the difficulties is determining how much of each of these forms of sweeteners is needed to replace a given amount of sucrose in a dough formulation such that you end up fermentation-wise at the same place by the time you need to use the dough. Each of the foregoing forms of sweeteners contains its own, and different mix, of saccharides. And yeast does not metabolize all simple sugars at the same rate. At the same time, you may be trying to achieve a particular degree of sweetness and color in the finished crust. So, you have a balancing act to go through, which is usually resolved through a series of tests. In the case of the Briess sweet sorghum syrup, you have essentially a small amount of glucose and a moderate amount of maltose that eventually gets converted to glucose. What I don't know is what amount of the Briess product is needed to feed the yeast so that you can use the dough when you need it. Solving the sweetness problem is easy (I think) if the Briess product is indeed about 55% as sweet as sucrose. If color of the finished crust is also a consideration, then you have to decide how much of the Briess product is needed to get the desired color in the finished crust. Remember, also, that the Maillard reactions require reducing/simple sugars to produce crust coloration. If there are any unconverted sugars in the dough at the time of baking, they can contribute to browning through caramelization.

In your case, with less than one percent sucrose in your Lehmann dough formulation, I would not expect a "wow" factor through the use of the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup as a substitute. I have never had a sweet white sorghum syrup so I can't say whether it will produce a better or sweeter crust flavor. That is something that you will tell us if you decide to give the Briess product a try.

Peter


Peter,

Maybe Steve King from Briess will be able to give us some more answers about the Briess syrup.  I copied a lot of what you posted in my email to him.  I sure am not as smart as you in knowing everything about pizza dough, but maybe Steve will think I am smart by using part of your post in my questioning about the Briess syrup in trying to use it in pizza dough.  :-D Thanks for the help in posting what you did so I could question Steve in better detail. 

I know you have explained to me many times in posts all what happens when just plain sugar is used in a pizza dough, but I appreciate you explaining again.  Maybe one of these days I will get everything into my brain. 

I know when trying different sweeteners in dough it can be tricky to determine how much of each form of sweetener is needed to replace sucrose in a dough formulation and know how the dough will end up fermentation-wise to be able to use it at the same time.  I understand better now since you explained it to me that each sweeteners contains it own and different mixes of saccharine and the yeast does not metabolize all simple sugars at the same rate.  I can also now understand the balancing act better and see I might have to do a series of tests.  As you probably already know I am always trying to get better rim crust coloration, but my bottom crust coloration seems okay. 

I will wait and see what Steve replies or let you decide how much of the Briess syrup to try in the Lehmann dough.  I can understand that 1% of the Briess syrup in my formulation probably wouldnít make any difference. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #368 on: July 12, 2012, 09:11:07 AM »
I received an automatic reply email from Steve King this morning that he will be out of the office July 9th to July 13th, with limited access to email.  They listed other numbers for customer service and who to call, but I am not sure if I can ask the right questions about the Briess white sorghum syrup over the phone.

I donít know what to try with the Briess syrup in the Lehmann dough now.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #369 on: July 12, 2012, 09:29:36 AM »
I just received an email from Steve King and he said he forwarded my questions to their technical folks and I should receive an answer soon.

Norma
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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #370 on: July 12, 2012, 10:09:40 PM »
I guess it worked too good Norma!   :-D
That Steve guy is now so intimidated by your newfound brainstorms he had to defer to the technicians.  You prolly gonna get a job offer now....welcome to the big time Prof. Norma!!     8)
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #371 on: July 13, 2012, 07:38:56 AM »
I guess it worked too good Norma!   :-D
That Steve guy is now so intimidated by your newfound brainstorms he had to defer to the technicians.  You prolly gonna get a job offer now....welcome to the big time Prof. Norma!!     8)

Bob,

Steve is the National Sales Manager for Briess.  I think Peter and I found when trying to question companies different times, (about different products they sell) they usually have to refer you to technical people.  The technical people know more about the products than the people that sell the products at most companies.

Peter is the one that always knows all the technical stuff and can stump even technical people.  :chef:  He is the one that can even reverse engineer pizzas and dough balls from Nutrition Facts.  I just copy what he says, or even if I am actually talking to technical people, or someone from a company, I have a print out nearby to be able to ask questions.  Peter is the brains of this forum.   

When I was trying to understand about chemical leavening systems, in combination with yeast in pizza doughs, or chemical leavening systems for dry mixes for pizza, it was too complicated for me and I gave up.   :-D

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #372 on: July 13, 2012, 09:11:35 AM »

Peter,

I copied a lot of what you posted in my email to him.  I sure am not as smart as you in knowing everything about pizza dough, but maybe Steve will think I am smart by using part of your post in my questioning about the Briess syrup in trying to use it in pizza dough. 
I was referring to this,Norma.   ;D
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #373 on: July 13, 2012, 09:46:58 AM »
I was referring to this,Norma.   ;D

Bob,

Yea, I am not as smart as Steve might think.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #374 on: July 13, 2012, 10:03:13 AM »
Norma and Bob,

When I post on this forum, I try as best I can to base what I say on facts and research. For me, it is a form of Hippocratic oath ("First, do no harm"), and I will usually qualify what I say when I am in doubt or speculating about something, or admit that I don't know. I don't guess when I am not certain because that might mislead and do actual harm to someone. But there are times, such as with the Briess sweet sorghum syrup under discussion here, where the only way you can know whether you are correct is to lay out the case and let others, including experts, react to it. I don't mind if I am wrong so long as I learn something from those who know more about the subject than I. But Norma is correct when she says that the people you end up talking to at companies don't always have the answers. This happens to me all the time. Norma will almost always have a better shot at getting people's attention because she is a professional with a business and may become a customer. As an amateur, I will get less attention because I will never be a customer of those companies.

We have several members on the forum who are smarter and better qualified to address technical issues than I. They just don't post. I suspect they have real lives with families, issues and responsibilities and better things to do with their time than to spend it on this forum researching and answering arcane technical issues.

Peter

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #375 on: July 13, 2012, 11:29:21 AM »
Norma and Bob,

When I post on this forum, I try as best I can to base what I say on facts and research. For me, it is a form of Hippocratic oath ("First, do no harm"), and I will usually qualify what I say when I am in doubt or speculating about something, or admit that I don't know. I don't guess when I am not certain because that might mislead and do actual harm to someone. But there are times, such as with the Briess sweet sorghum syrup under discussion here, where the only way you can know whether you are correct is to lay out the case and let others, including experts, react to it. I don't mind if I am wrong so long as I learn something from those who know more about the subject than I. But Norma is correct when she says that the people you end up talking to at companies don't always have the answers. This happens to me all the time. Norma will almost always have a better shot at getting people's attention because she is a professional with a business and may become a customer. As an amateur, I will get less attention because I will never be a customer of those companies.

We have several members on the forum who are smarter and better qualified to address technical issues than I. They just don't post. I suspect they have real lives with families, issues and responsibilities and better things to do with their time than to spend it on this forum researching and answering arcane technical issues.

Peter


Peter,

I agree with all of what you posted.  You are great at being Sherlock Holmes, and trying to get information about anything you donít know, and will post if you are unsure of something.

You are also right in I have been lucky that I do have a small pizza business that can help me get samples, and spec sheets sometimes, that might be helpful for those samples in trying different pizza doughs.  Whether the technical people at Briess will have helpful information about the Briess syrup will be seen when I get another email. 

BTW for anyone that might be interested, I wanted to post that Central Market in Lancaster was voted one of the top 10 fresh markets in the world by CNN GO.  http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/683822_Global-travel-website-lists-Central-Market-among-top-10-fresh-markets-in-the-world.html  and http://www.cnngo.com/explorations/shop/worlds-best-fresh-markets-316265

I sure donít agree with Central Market being in the top 10, but it is a nice little market with many food products and is open 3 days a week.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #376 on: July 13, 2012, 03:45:08 PM »
Peter, or anyone else that might be interested,

I received this email from Judie Giebel from Briess.  If Peter wants me to ask more questions about the Briess white sorghum syrup, let me know.

Hi Norma,

Sucrose has a number of different functions in baked products; in addition to the obvious of sweetness, it also has an impact on formation of product structure. This is turn will influence texture and eating qualities. There are some differences between sucrose and other sugars that may be used in baking. The important one being the impact on the gelatinisation characteristics of wheat starch which in return affects product structure. Generally in a pizza dough sugar would be added at a very low percentage and is mainly there for browning and a slight structure and fermentation aid. Our product will work very similar in this type of product. The white sorghum syrup being made from the grain and not the cane will give the same browning as sugar. It will also slightly soften crust texture to make it more machineable and a softer bite. You are correct in your understanding of the sweetness level of our White Sorghum Syrup. This should not effect the amount you would need in your formula. I am sure that sweetness is not the critical function of the sugar in your dough. What ever percentage of sugar that your are currently using can be kept the same with our product. Do remember however the solids difference if you are currently using a granulated sugar and adjust your liquid accordingly. If you have any further questions or concerns please feel free to contact me.
 
Regards

Judie Giebel Technical Service Representative

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #377 on: July 13, 2012, 04:59:58 PM »
Norma,

For a dough like a Lehmann dough where sweetness in the finished crust is not an objective, I suspect that Judie at Briess is correct. When I posted earlier on this subject, I had not given any thought as to which Lehmann dough you had in mind to include the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup. However, if you plan to use a soaker and a one-day cold fermentation, then I believe that you could replace the roughly one percent sucrose with an equal weight of the Briess product. You would be getting a fair amount of sugar in the dough from the soaker, and a good part of the sweet white sorghum syrup would be available to provide color in the finished crust. The only reason why you might use more sorghum syrup (double or more as earlier mentioned) would be to get more crust color, through the Maillard reactions (which require simple/reducing sugars) and caramelization. However, you would have to be careful as not to use too much sorghum syrup so that the bottom crust doesn't brown too much or burn. Even then, you could use a pizza screen to slow things down.

If you decide to just replace the present amount of sucrose with an equal weight of the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup, I'd be surprised if you got materially different results than just using sucrose. However, while I have eaten the regular sorghum syrup before, I have not tried any sorghum product in a dough. My sense is that a product like the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup might lend itself better to a dough, like a Mellow Mushroom dough, where you want some sweetness, plus some crust coloration. In such an application, the Briess product might produce a lighter crust coloration than the molasses products we considered for the MM style.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #378 on: July 13, 2012, 10:24:09 PM »
Norma,

For a dough like a Lehmann dough where sweetness in the finished crust is not an objective, I suspect that Judie at Briess is correct. When I posted earlier on this subject, I had not given any thought as to which Lehmann dough you had in mind to include the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup. However, if you plan to use a soaker and a one-day cold fermentation, then I believe that you could replace the roughly one percent sucrose with an equal weight of the Briess product. You would be getting a fair amount of sugar in the dough from the soaker, and a good part of the sweet white sorghum syrup would be available to provide color in the finished crust. The only reason why you might use more sorghum syrup (double or more as earlier mentioned) would be to get more crust color, through the Maillard reactions (which require simple/reducing sugars) and caramelization. However, you would have to be careful as not to use too much sorghum syrup so that the bottom crust doesn't brown too much or burn. Even then, you could use a pizza screen to slow things down.

If you decide to just replace the present amount of sucrose with an equal weight of the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup, I'd be surprised if you got materially different results than just using sucrose. However, while I have eaten the regular sorghum syrup before, I have not tried any sorghum product in a dough. My sense is that a product like the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup might lend itself better to a dough, like a Mellow Mushroom dough, where you want some sweetness, plus some crust coloration. In such an application, the Briess product might produce a lighter crust coloration than the molasses products we considered for the MM style.

Peter

Peter,

If you wanted me to post the formulation I have been using for a one day Lehmann dough tomorrow I can.  I am not sure of trying a soaker with the Briess syrup.  Thanks for posting that if I used the soaker and a one-day cold fermentation, that I could then replace the roughly one percent sucrose with an equal weight of the Briess product.  I know with the sugar in the soaker I would be getting a fair amount of sugar in the dough from the soaker.  I didnít think about a good part of the sweet white sorghum syrup would be available to provide color in the finished crust.  Maybe I would like to try more sorghum syrup (double or more) in a regular Lehmann dough first to see what happens.  Maybe I then could go on to try the sweet sorghum syrup in an application like the Mellow Mushroom dough.   

I had the best Lehmann dough pizzas tonight that I ever had.  They were made in Steveís modified grill.  They were baked at about 650 degrees F.  After those pizzas I donít think I will ever be able to make any Lehmann dough pizzas like he did. 

Norma 
Always working and looking for new information!

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Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #379 on: July 13, 2012, 10:28:53 PM »
Norma,

If you don't mind, I would like to see the Lehmann dough formulation you would like to use with the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup.

Peter