Author Topic: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market  (Read 64749 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #350 on: June 07, 2012, 02:24:30 PM »
Norma,

In the "old dough" discussion, I was essentially paraphrasing what I read from Didier Rosada's article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm that I had printed out some time ago. Normally, I would have cited the article but for a time the Rosada articles disappeared. Thanks to Toby (of Nearlypolitan fame), I found the articles using the Wayback Machine.

Peter


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #351 on: June 07, 2012, 02:47:15 PM »
Norma,

In the "old dough" discussion, I was essentially paraphrasing what I read from Didier Rosada's article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm that I had printed out some time ago. Normally, I would have cited the article but for a time the Rosada articles disappeared. Thanks to Toby (of Nearlypolitan fame), I found the articles using the Wayback Machine.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to where Didier Rosada talks about pre-fermented dough or an old dough.  I guess I could not use that method because Didier Rosada says:

ďThe storage of the pre-fermented dough at low temperature (35 - 40į) could last up to 48 hoursĒ.

That wouldnít work for me because I would need 3 days of pre-fermented dough at a lower temperature, unless I would like to try fermenting the regular dough (made with white flour, water, yeast, and salt) for 3 hrs., before incorporating it into the final dough.  That would make my Mondays too long at market and I might also have some problems with temperature fluctuations.

It is good your found the articles thanks to Toby using the Wayback Machine.  I do recall Toby fondly.   

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #352 on: June 11, 2012, 06:44:50 PM »
There were two batches made today with unfrozen dough balls.  The first batch I added two unfrozen dough balls and the second batch had 3 unfrozen dough balls added.  The second picture is of the 3 unfrozen dough balls used for the second batch.  I donít know why my batches of dough felt sticker than last week when adding the unfrozen dough balls.  It could have been that last week was a lot cooler at market and there was a lot less humidity.  I am not sure of that though.  The temperature today at market was 87 degrees F and the humidity was 80%.   

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #353 on: June 11, 2012, 06:45:59 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #354 on: June 13, 2012, 10:37:48 AM »
These are a few pictures of some of the pizzas that were made yesterday with the unfrozen dough balls mixed in.  These sure were not the best looking pizzas made yesterday.

I think the added unfrozen dough balls did up the flavor a little.  The only problem of doing this experiment again next week is I only had one leftover dough ball at the end of the day from all the dough balls that were made on Monday.  It was raining heavily most of yesterday and that brought a lot more people inside market and then that made us really busy.  If Randy wouldnít have stopped by and done the dishes for us, I donít know how we would have gotten them done.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #355 on: June 13, 2012, 10:44:44 AM »
This is how one dough ball looks (in the plastic bag) in the second picture about mid-afternoon that was ready to be made into a pizza.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #356 on: June 20, 2012, 02:30:45 PM »
I posted somewhat about this on the ďepoxy threadĒ, but I am starting to believe that humidity does play more into how a final pizza turns out in preparing the dough.  I have talked to Steve about this many times, but find it interesting even when using different flours (straight Kyrol and a mix of Kyrol and KASL) all my pizzas yesterday were easier to open the doughs balls and seemed to have better browning on the rims.  The pizzas even looked the same using either Kyrol or the blend of Kryol and KASL.  These two pictures really donít show what happened yesterday, (and I didnít think to take more pictures) but Steve and I did notice most of all the pizzas from yesterday had dough balls that were easier to open and the final pizzas browned better.  Just from these pictures it really canít be seen by the naked eye what the pizzas really looked like in person, because my cheaper camera doesnít do the best job in capturing how they look.

I wonder just how much humidity does come into play when mixing dough and then how the final pizza will turn out if everything else is almost constant (like final dough temperature, same formulation, same amount of time mixing, etc).  I have been wondering about this for a long while.  I know other members report that in  higher elevations they need higher hydrations for their dough, but wonder how important humidity is too just when mixing the same formulation.  I am going to watch more and maybe even record what the humidity is when I make some regular Lehmann dough batches.  

Norma  
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #357 on: July 04, 2012, 02:41:27 PM »
I sure had problems with my regular Lehmann dough pizzas yesterday, and after thinking it over for a little while yesterday, contribute it to the high heat at market (about 90 to 94 degrees F), the low humidity, and the fans blowing to keep Steve and myself a little cooler.   I never had skins that dried out so fast as yesterday.  :o The dough balls felt exactly the same when they were taken out of the plastic bags, but while even attempting to open them, they became so dried, that until they were finished being opened the edges and the middle of the skin had small cracks in the skin.  The resulting pizzas then didnít bake the same, as they seemed to have smaller rims or not as much oven spring.  I commented to Steve so many times about this and got him to feel the skins.  After a little while I decided to open the dough balls cold right out of the pizza fridge to see what would happen.  Much to my delight they opened without the skin becoming too dry.  I sure really donít know what was going on with the dough balls and the skins being dry, but had tried dough balls from 3 batches of doughs I had made and the all acted the same.  The rest of the day the dough balls were opened right from the cold state. 

I know it probably canít be told from these pictures, but the first pizza was with a dry skin and the second two pizzas were made with the cold dough balls.  The one last picture was of a skin that got dry when I tried to let it warm-up a little and had a few customers to wait on. It also quickly dried out, even when it was opened cold.  It probably isnít the best picture to show how dry the skin was, but it was really dry.

I guess there is always something new to learn about the same dough and working in different temperatures with different humidityís.  :-D

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #358 on: July 04, 2012, 02:42:52 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #359 on: July 11, 2012, 06:46:53 AM »
This post is just to express that I still think humidity does play some kind of role in how pizzas turn out when using the same formulation.  I had wondered, and was very curious, of why my preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and doughs werenít anyways the same week to week though out the year.  Since I have no been playing around with a basic Lehmann dough for a little while, I also see the same thing.

Last week it was hot and there was a much lower humidity at market.  The dough balls when trying to open them dried out so fast, which had never happened for me before.  I ended up opening the dough ball right out of the deli case without a warm-up  This week it also was fairly hot, (but not as hot, around 90 degrees inside at my stand) and the humidity was much higher and there was no kind of problems with dry skins when opening the dough balls, even with the fans blowing the same as last week.  My thermometer with humidity isnít exactly correct, so I donít want to post the humidity from yesterday inside my stand, but I know it was higher than last week.  The dough balls could sit out for up to 2 hrs. for warm-up and they worked fine.  

The resulting pizzas also turned out different even using the same formulation.  

I still have not figured out what role humidity does play in how dough balls behave when opening them, or the final pizzas do differ, but just wanted to post if someone else has problems with their dough balls and final pizzas maybe humidity does play a role.  I believe most members that make pizzas at home would not see these differences, but since I work in so many different kinds of temperatures and humidityís at market, I think I might see more changes then other members.  I still have no conclusions, or really canít do anything about what temperature or humidity it is at market, so I just watch and try to learn what might happen.  Maybe, it wasnít even the preferment Lehmann dough that seemed to give me problems sometimes, but might have been the humidity.

I also used the same formulation for the Lehmann dough and replaced the oil with MFB.  For some reason (I think Steve said there was some sauce on the end of the peel), but there was a loading error when he went to slide the pizza into the oven.  The pizza almost ended up heart shaped.  :-D I am not posting the results of that test, but will try to do the test again next week.  I want to see what MFB will do as a replacement for the olive oil I am using in the final pizza.  

These pictures werenít of the best looking pizzas made yesterday, but just some to show how some of the pizzas turned out yesterday.  

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #360 on: July 11, 2012, 06:49:28 AM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #361 on: July 11, 2012, 06:50:28 AM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #362 on: July 11, 2012, 06:51:30 AM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #363 on: July 11, 2012, 03:23:46 PM »
Norma,

Over at the Mellow Mushroom thread, at Reply 1755 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg195844.html#msg195844, you indicated that you wanted to use a sweet white sorghum syrup produced by Briess in one of your regular Lehmann doughs. You reproduced the spec sheet for that product at Reply 1750 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg195574.html#msg195574.

The Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is unlike any I have studied to date. As the spec sheet for that product indicates, it comprises (on an as-is basis), 5% glucose, 35% maltose, 13% maltotriose, and 23% higher saccharides. As you can see from the sucrose equivalency chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, glucose is about three-quarters as sweet as sucrose and maltose is about a third as sweet as sucrose. I did some further research on the maltotriose and read that that sweetener, which is called a trisaccharide, is about 30% as sweet as sucrose. The higher saccharides, or polysaccharides, have little sweetness. An example of a polysaccharide is cellulose.

Yeast likes glucose, which is a simple sugar, and uses it for fermentation. As described in the article on Sugar Transformations (Rosada) at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm, maltose gets degraded into glucose by the maltase enzyme. As best I can tell from my research on the maltotriose, it contains glucose molecules but I believe that they are in a form that is not fermented by yeast to produce carbon dioxide and alcohol but rather is used in yeast reproduction. So, it appears that the simple sugars that are fermentable are the glucose and maltose that is degraded to glucose.

I was about to do a sucrose equivalency calculation when I discovered that the spec sheet you posted says, under SENSORY CHARACTERISTICS, that the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is 55 on the sucrose scale. I take that to mean that the Briess product is 55% as sweet as sucrose. If that is correct, that would mean that in a Lehmann dough formulation calling for the use of sucrose, you would use almost double the amount of the Briess sorghum syrup, by weight, to get the equivalent sweetness. However, if you are using a small amount of sucrose to begin with, you are unlikely to detect sweetness in the finished crust when using almost double that in the form of the Briess sorghum syrup. Of course, that may not be a concern since it has not been an objective to have a sweet Lehmann crust.

What I cannot answer at this point is whether almost double the amount of the Briess sorghum syrup is enough to promote fermentation at a rate that will allow you to make and use the dough in accordance with the timetable you need at market, given that about 46% of the Briess product may not be fermentable. You might need to use more than double the amount of the Briess sorghum product, or you might need to increase the amount of yeast to speed up the fermentation, or possibly a combination of both. Increasing the amount of the Briess product by several percent would not be the end of the world since you would have to use quite a bit of it before it would show up as detectable sweetness in the finshed crust. So, if you are using say, 1% sucrose now, you might try using three times that in your Lehmann dough formulation. To test that number, you might ask Steve King at Briess what he would suggest as a percent of the Briess sorghum syrup to use for a pizza dough. Or you can simply do a test dough and see what happens. It appears that the Briess sorghum syrup is about 20.5% water, so technically you would want to adjust the formula hydration to account for that water. However, at the amounts of the sorghum syrup you would be using, I would imagine that the amount of water is small and would not perturbate the formula hydration to the point where the hydration would be increased by an amount that would lead to an overly extensible dough. But, if you want, we can always adjust the formula hydration once you decide on what you would like to do.

Peter

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #364 on: July 11, 2012, 06:32:34 PM »
Norma,

Over at the Mellow Mushroom thread, at Reply 1755 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg195844.html#msg195844, you indicated that you wanted to use a sweet white sorghum syrup produced by Briess in one of your regular Lehmann doughs. You reproduced the spec sheet for that product at Reply 1750 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg195574.html#msg195574.

The Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is unlike any I have studied to date. As the spec sheet for that product indicates, it comprises (on an as-is basis), 5% glucose, 35% maltose, 13% maltotriose, and 23% higher saccharides. As you can see from the sucrose equivalency chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, glucose is about three-quarters as sweet as sucrose and maltose is about a third as sweet as sucrose. I did some further research on the maltotriose and read that that sweetener, which is called a trisaccharide, is about 30% as sweet as sucrose. The higher saccharides, or polysaccharides, have little sweetness. An example of a polysaccharide is cellulose.

Yeast likes glucose, which is a simple sugar, and uses it for fermentation. As described in the article on Sugar Transformations (Rosada) at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm, maltose gets degraded into glucose by the maltase enzyme. As best I can tell from my research on the maltotriose, it contains glucose molecules but I believe that they are in a form that is not fermented by yeast to produce carbon dioxide and alcohol but rather is used in yeast reproduction. So, it appears that the simple sugars that are fermentable are the glucose and maltose that is degraded to glucose.

I was about to do a sucrose equivalency calculation when I discovered that the spec sheet you posted says, under SENSORY CHARACTERISTICS, that the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup is 55 on the sucrose scale. I take that to mean that the Briess product is 55% as sweet as sucrose. If that is correct, that would mean that in a Lehmann dough formulation calling for the use of sucrose, you would use almost double the amount of the Briess sorghum syrup, by weight, to get the equivalent sweetness. However, if you are using a small amount of sucrose to begin with, you are unlikely to detect sweetness in the finished crust when using almost double that in the form of the Briess sorghum syrup. Of course, that may not be a concern since it has not been an objective to have a sweet Lehmann crust.

What I cannot answer at this point is whether almost double the amount of the Briess sorghum syrup is enough to promote fermentation at a rate that will allow you to make and use the dough in accordance with the timetable you need at market, given that about 46% of the Briess product may not be fermentable. You might need to use more than double the amount of the Briess sorghum product, or you might need to increase the amount of yeast to speed up the fermentation, or possibly a combination of both. Increasing the amount of the Briess product by several percent would not be the end of the world since you would have to use quite a bit of it before it would show up as detectable sweetness in the finshed crust. So, if you are using say, 1% sucrose now, you might try using three times that in your Lehmann dough formulation. To test that number, you might ask Steve King at Briess what he would suggest as a percent of the Briess sorghum syrup to use for a pizza dough. Or you can simply do a test dough and see what happens. It appears that the Briess sorghum syrup is about 20.5% water, so technically you would want to adjust the formula hydration to account for that water. However, at the amounts of the sorghum syrup you would be using, I would imagine that the amount of water is small and would not perturbate the formula hydration to the point where the hydration would be increased by an amount that would lead to an overly extensible dough. But, if you want, we can always adjust the formula hydration once you decide on what you would like to do.

Peter


Peter,

You are right that I would like to try the Briess white sorghum syrup in a Lehmann dough to see what happens.  The Briess sweet white sorghum syrup seemed very different to me and that is why I requested a sample. 

Thank you for studying the spec sheet for the Briess white sorghum syrup and explaining it to me.  I never heard of maltotriose.  I will have to look that up on Google.  I did not know that an example of a polysaccharide is cellulose. 

Thanks for going over the article again on Sugar Transformations by Rosada and how you think it applies to the Briess white sorghum syrup with the sugars that are fermented in that product probably would be the glucose and maltose that is degraded to glucose. 

I will shoot an email to Steve at Briess and ask him if the Briess white sorghum syrup is 55 % as sweet as sucrose.  I also will ask Steve King what he would suggest as a percent of the Briess sorghum syrup to use for pizza dough.     

I donít understand why more of the Breiss white sorghum syrup would be needed to be added more than by double the amount of sugar, since sugar really canít be converted for the yeast in one day like I have been doing.  I am misunderstanding something?  I am only using .75% sugar now in the Lehmann dough formulation for market and 61% hydration.  I donít think the amount of sugar I am now using in the Lehmann dough is doing anything.  Why would any certain amount of the Briess sorghum syrup be needed if the same amount of yeast is used for a one day cold ferment?  Do you think that maybe the Briess white sorghum syrup could give me a better flavor in the crust is a higher percent of the Briess syrup is used?   

If I donít get any answers from Steve, I will take your advice on what to try whatever you suggest.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #365 on: July 11, 2012, 07:35:40 PM »
Peter,

I donít know if your research turned up this article about processing of starch with sweeteners or not.  I sure donít understand it, but maybe you might if you didnít already read it.  I donít know how this applies or not to the Briess syrup.

http://www.amano-enzyme.co.jp/eng/productuse/starch.html

I did sent Steve King an email and asked him some questions.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #366 on: July 11, 2012, 08:28:16 PM »
I donít understand why more of the Breiss white sorghum syrup would be needed to be added more than by double the amount of sugar, since sugar really canít be converted for the yeast in one day like I have been doing.  I am misunderstanding something?  I am only using .75% sugar now in the Lehmann dough formulation for market and 61% hydration.  I donít think the amount of sugar I am now using in the Lehmann dough is doing anything.  Why would any certain amount of the Briess sorghum syrup be needed if the same amount of yeast is used for a one day cold ferment?  Do you think that maybe the Briess white sorghum syrup could give me a better flavor in the crust is a higher percent of the Briess syrup is used?   

Norma,

Those are all good questions, which is one of the reasons why I suggested that you get suggestions from Briess. But, let me attempt to explain my thinking.

As you know, yeast consumes only simple sugars. Sucrose, or ordinary table sugar, is a disaccharide and, as such, has to be broken down into glucose and fructose before the yeast can use them. That breakdown can take place by acids, heat or, commercially, by using an invertase enzyme. If there is enough sugar added to the dough, it can last a few days. And whatever sugar is not converted to simple sugars becomes available to contribute to crust coloration through caramelization. At the same time as sucrose is being metabolized, the amylase enzymes work on the complex starches to convert them to simple sugars, as is discussed in the theartisan.net article I referenced. So, the yeast will be fed with simple sugars from the sucrose and also from amylase performance.

As you also know, sucrose isn't the only form of sweetener that can be used in a dough. You can use honey, molasses, maple syrup, agave nectar, light and dark brown sugars, dry and wet nondiastatic malts, regular sorghum syrup and, now, the sweet white sorghum syrup. One of the difficulties is determining how much of each of these forms of sweeteners is needed to replace a given amount of sucrose in a dough formulation such that you end up fermentation-wise at the same place by the time you need to use the dough. Each of the foregoing forms of sweeteners contains its own, and different mix, of saccharides. And yeast does not metabolize all simple sugars at the same rate. At the same time, you may be trying to achieve a particular degree of sweetness and color in the finished crust. So, you have a balancing act to go through, which is usually resolved through a series of tests. In the case of the Briess sweet sorghum syrup, you have essentially a small amount of glucose and a moderate amount of maltose that eventually gets converted to glucose. What I don't know is what amount of the Briess product is needed to feed the yeast so that you can use the dough when you need it. Solving the sweetness problem is easy (I think) if the Briess product is indeed about 55% as sweet as sucrose. If color of the finished crust is also a consideration, then you have to decide how much of the Briess product is needed to get the desired color in the finished crust. Remember, also, that the Maillard reactions require reducing/simple sugars to produce crust coloration. If there are any unconverted sugars in the dough at the time of baking, they can contribute to browning through caramelization.

In your case, with less than one percent sucrose in your Lehmann dough formulation, I would not expect a "wow" factor through the use of the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup as a substitute. I have never had a sweet white sorghum syrup so I can't say whether it will produce a better or sweeter crust flavor. That is something that you will tell us if you decide to give the Briess product a try.

Peter


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #367 on: July 11, 2012, 10:20:15 PM »
Norma,

Those are all good questions, which is one of the reasons why I suggested that you get suggestions from Briess. But, let me attempt to explain my thinking.

As you know, yeast consumes only simple sugars. Sucrose, or ordinary table sugar, is a disaccharide and, as such, has to be broken down into glucose and fructose before the yeast can use them. That breakdown can take place by acids, heat or, commercially, by using an invertase enzyme. If there is enough sugar added to the dough, it can last a few days. And whatever sugar is not converted to simple sugars becomes available to contribute to crust coloration through caramelization. At the same time as sucrose is being metabolized, the amylase enzymes work on the complex starches to convert them to simple sugars, as is discussed in the theartisan.net article I referenced. So, the yeast will be fed with simple sugars from the sucrose and also from amylase performance.

As you also know, sucrose isn't the only form of sweetener that can be used in a dough. You can use honey, molasses, maple syrup, agave nectar, light and dark brown sugars, dry and wet nondiastatic malts, regular sorghum syrup and, now, the sweet white sorghum syrup. One of the difficulties is determining how much of each of these forms of sweeteners is needed to replace a given amount of sucrose in a dough formulation such that you end up fermentation-wise at the same place by the time you need to use the dough. Each of the foregoing forms of sweeteners contains its own, and different mix, of saccharides. And yeast does not metabolize all simple sugars at the same rate. At the same time, you may be trying to achieve a particular degree of sweetness and color in the finished crust. So, you have a balancing act to go through, which is usually resolved through a series of tests. In the case of the Briess sweet sorghum syrup, you have essentially a small amount of glucose and a moderate amount of maltose that eventually gets converted to glucose. What I don't know is what amount of the Briess product is needed to feed the yeast so that you can use the dough when you need it. Solving the sweetness problem is easy (I think) if the Briess product is indeed about 55% as sweet as sucrose. If color of the finished crust is also a consideration, then you have to decide how much of the Briess product is needed to get the desired color in the finished crust. Remember, also, that the Maillard reactions require reducing/simple sugars to produce crust coloration. If there are any unconverted sugars in the dough at the time of baking, they can contribute to browning through caramelization.

In your case, with less than one percent sucrose in your Lehmann dough formulation, I would not expect a "wow" factor through the use of the Briess sweet white sorghum syrup as a substitute. I have never had a sweet white sorghum syrup so I can't say whether it will produce a better or sweeter crust flavor. That is something that you will tell us if you decide to give the Briess product a try.

Peter


Peter,

Maybe Steve King from Briess will be able to give us some more answers about the Briess syrup.  I copied a lot of what you posted in my email to him.  I sure am not as smart as you in knowing everything about pizza dough, but maybe Steve will think I am smart by using part of your post in my questioning about the Briess syrup in trying to use it in pizza dough.  :-D Thanks for the help in posting what you did so I could question Steve in better detail. 

I know you have explained to me many times in posts all what happens when just plain sugar is used in a pizza dough, but I appreciate you explaining again.  Maybe one of these days I will get everything into my brain. 

I know when trying different sweeteners in dough it can be tricky to determine how much of each form of sweetener is needed to replace sucrose in a dough formulation and know how the dough will end up fermentation-wise to be able to use it at the same time.  I understand better now since you explained it to me that each sweeteners contains it own and different mixes of saccharine and the yeast does not metabolize all simple sugars at the same rate.  I can also now understand the balancing act better and see I might have to do a series of tests.  As you probably already know I am always trying to get better rim crust coloration, but my bottom crust coloration seems okay. 

I will wait and see what Steve replies or let you decide how much of the Briess syrup to try in the Lehmann dough.  I can understand that 1% of the Briess syrup in my formulation probably wouldnít make any difference. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #368 on: July 12, 2012, 09:11:07 AM »
I received an automatic reply email from Steve King this morning that he will be out of the office July 9th to July 13th, with limited access to email.  They listed other numbers for customer service and who to call, but I am not sure if I can ask the right questions about the Briess white sorghum syrup over the phone.

I donít know what to try with the Briess syrup in the Lehmann dough now.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #369 on: July 12, 2012, 09:29:36 AM »
I just received an email from Steve King and he said he forwarded my questions to their technical folks and I should receive an answer soon.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12473
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #370 on: July 12, 2012, 10:09:40 PM »
I guess it worked too good Norma!   :-D
That Steve guy is now so intimidated by your newfound brainstorms he had to defer to the technicians.  You prolly gonna get a job offer now....welcome to the big time Prof. Norma!!     8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #371 on: July 13, 2012, 07:38:56 AM »
I guess it worked too good Norma!   :-D
That Steve guy is now so intimidated by your newfound brainstorms he had to defer to the technicians.  You prolly gonna get a job offer now....welcome to the big time Prof. Norma!!     8)

Bob,

Steve is the National Sales Manager for Briess.  I think Peter and I found when trying to question companies different times, (about different products they sell) they usually have to refer you to technical people.  The technical people know more about the products than the people that sell the products at most companies.

Peter is the one that always knows all the technical stuff and can stump even technical people.  :chef:  He is the one that can even reverse engineer pizzas and dough balls from Nutrition Facts.  I just copy what he says, or even if I am actually talking to technical people, or someone from a company, I have a print out nearby to be able to ask questions.  Peter is the brains of this forum.   

When I was trying to understand about chemical leavening systems, in combination with yeast in pizza doughs, or chemical leavening systems for dry mixes for pizza, it was too complicated for me and I gave up.   :-D

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12473
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #372 on: July 13, 2012, 09:11:35 AM »

Peter,

I copied a lot of what you posted in my email to him.  I sure am not as smart as you in knowing everything about pizza dough, but maybe Steve will think I am smart by using part of your post in my questioning about the Briess syrup in trying to use it in pizza dough. 
I was referring to this,Norma.   ;D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23814
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #373 on: July 13, 2012, 09:46:58 AM »
I was referring to this,Norma.   ;D

Bob,

Yea, I am not as smart as Steve might think.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23188
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the progress of the regular Lehmann dough for market
« Reply #374 on: July 13, 2012, 10:03:13 AM »
Norma and Bob,

When I post on this forum, I try as best I can to base what I say on facts and research. For me, it is a form of Hippocratic oath ("First, do no harm"), and I will usually qualify what I say when I am in doubt or speculating about something, or admit that I don't know. I don't guess when I am not certain because that might mislead and do actual harm to someone. But there are times, such as with the Briess sweet sorghum syrup under discussion here, where the only way you can know whether you are correct is to lay out the case and let others, including experts, react to it. I don't mind if I am wrong so long as I learn something from those who know more about the subject than I. But Norma is correct when she says that the people you end up talking to at companies don't always have the answers. This happens to me all the time. Norma will almost always have a better shot at getting people's attention because she is a professional with a business and may become a customer. As an amateur, I will get less attention because I will never be a customer of those companies.

We have several members on the forum who are smarter and better qualified to address technical issues than I. They just don't post. I suspect they have real lives with families, issues and responsibilities and better things to do with their time than to spend it on this forum researching and answering arcane technical issues.

Peter


 

pizzapan