Author Topic: All purpose flour in the WFO  (Read 3013 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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All purpose flour in the WFO
« on: April 15, 2012, 10:20:03 PM »
I have not used Caputo in over a year, and I have been experimenting with lots of other flours. Some have been OK, others complete disasters. Here is one that came out pretty good: CM Artisan Bakers Craft. It is lower protein (11%), higher ash and lower falling number than Caputo. But it makes a very tender pie that tastes delicious. It works best for shorter ferments. This one is 62% hydration, .3% IDY over 10 hours at 72 degrees. It browned heavily without much leoparding.

John

PS. That is a hole in the olive pie - showing some of the lack of strength (not necessarily the flours fault).
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 10:21:52 PM by dellavecchia »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2012, 10:23:29 PM »
John all great looking pies!  Just curious, why does this flour work better for shorter ferments?  Are you basing that on the weakness of the flour at 11% protein?

thanks,
Chau

Offline David Deas

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2012, 10:25:30 PM »
Nice.

I'm assuming the flour does not have enough protein to withstand longer ferments, IYO?  What do you think about all purpose versus Caputo in the WFO?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2012, 10:33:03 PM »
Chau - I have used this flour with 24 hour starter workflows, and it always became hard to work with on the marble, even at elevated hydrations. I could not go beyond 64% either. I am sure it could work better with dough additions, but for straight NP it worked best as a same day dough.

David - I am coming to realize that there are flours that do 95% of what caputo does in the WFO. It is the last 5% that gives Caputo an edge - especially in elasticity and fermentation prowess. I don't like malted flours in the WFO, but I can say that quality AP is fine with me if I never had Caputo again.

John

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2012, 10:34:13 PM »
John are all the CM flours malted. That's probably why they browned more than have that blondeness with leoparding. Just noticed that the cheese looks like those little marshmallows you put in hot chocolate.

EDIT:Just answered my question.

Offline David Deas

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2012, 10:35:52 PM »
I was considering running some experiments with Tipo 000 flours.  Do you have any experience with those, John?  Since you work a lot with many different flours?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2012, 10:40:28 PM »
John are all the CM flours malted. That's probably why they browned more than have that blondeness with leoparding. Just noticed that the cheese looks like those little marshmallows you put in hot chocolate.

EDIT:Just answered my question.

David - This one is unmalted. It does come in a malted version though.

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2012, 10:43:52 PM »
I was considering running some experiments with Tipo 000 flours.  Do you have any experience with those, John?  Since you work a lot with many different flours?

David - No, I have only read about them. I have a copy of The Art of Leavened Dough from Italy and they discuss the flour for use in some viennoiserie doughs. I would love to see the results of your experiments.

John

Offline bakeshack

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2012, 10:50:04 PM »
Awesome pies, John!  They remind me of Bianco's. 

Marlon


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2012, 10:58:48 PM »
Beautiful ^ 4

John, everything you make brightens my world! I love looking at you pies!

Nothing wrong with AP. I could get away with it if I had to. I can't imagine ever using anything stronger than KAAP.

CL
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 07:48:55 AM »
Thanks for the compliments Craig and Marlon!

John

PS.  Calabro mozz is starting to irk me lately. It is either old or just made differently, but the cheese does not melt as easily. It is drier than usual.

Offline wheelman

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2012, 09:26:29 AM »
those look amazing John!  do you think a re-visit to Caputo would show some profit from your year away? 
bill

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2012, 03:13:59 PM »
those look amazing John!  do you think a re-visit to Caputo would show some profit from your year away? 
bill

Bill - Thank you. I think so. But Caputo really does tend to make things easy for you, as it is made specifically for the WFO at every step of the process. It is very forgiving. To tell the truth I would love to find a more "local" flour to do this kind of pizza making. The carbon footprint of Caputo importing flour from North America then shipping it back to sell here weighs on me. I know it sounds pretentious - but it has at least given me some experience working with flours I normally would not have used.

John

Offline pizza dr

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 04:55:15 PM »
Never thought of it that way... Good point.  May have to start looking for something a little more "local" myself. 

Scot

Offline bakeshack

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 05:37:43 PM »
Bill - Thank you. I think so. But Caputo really does tend to make things easy for you, as it is made specifically for the WFO at every step of the process. It is very forgiving. To tell the truth I would love to find a more "local" flour to do this kind of pizza making. The carbon footprint of Caputo importing flour from North America then shipping it back to sell here weighs on me. I know it sounds pretentious - but it has at least given me some experience working with flours I normally would not have used.

John

John, I totally agree with you and with a few adjustments to the workflow, some American flours (such as CM, Giusto's, or KA) can produce a highly competent product especially if you are using natural leaven.  At least 95% of the people we feed can't even tell the difference in terms of flavor and texture anyway. 

Marlon

Offline fornographer

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2012, 06:25:39 PM »
I agree too.  Has anyone tried the 00 flours produced by KA, Giustos, CM etc?

While we're on it, are there any North American producers of Bufala cheese? 

Has anyone tried planting san marzano tomatoes? 

Offline bakeshack

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2012, 06:47:25 PM »
I agree too.  Has anyone tried the 00 flours produced by KA, Giustos, CM etc?

While we're on it, are there any North American producers of Bufala cheese? 

Has anyone tried planting san marzano tomatoes? 

I have used the CM Panissimo 00 Normal as well as the Giusto's 00.  You have to adjust the hydration to bring the dough consistency to the level of Caputo or San Felice but the flavor is excellent as well. 

John grows San Marzano's in his backyard. 

Marlon



Offline wheelman

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2012, 07:20:18 PM »
i've tried the KA 00 flour and was not too impressed.  it's been a while though, maybe time to try it again.  i tried san marzano tomatos last year from seed and they were not very good, although the neapolitan basil was fantastic. 
buffalo cheese.... don't get me started! 
bill

Offline David Deas

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2012, 09:27:19 PM »
David - No, I have only read about them. I have a copy of The Art of Leavened Dough from Italy and they discuss the flour for use in some viennoiserie doughs. I would love to see the results of your experiments.

John

Well I just ran one. 

To possibly simulate a 000 flour or even just a weaker 00 flour, I cut my flour with White Lily in order to bring the protein content down to about 10% or so.  The results were, at ultra fast bake times of 40 seconds or so, pretty good.

Possibly post pictures tomorrow.

parallei

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2012, 10:19:13 PM »
John,

Those are wonderful looking pies.  To me, the more "hybrid" looking pies have always been a bit more aesthetically pleasing.  I'm glad they tasted good too!

+1 on the more local ingredients.

   

Offline thezaman

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2012, 12:55:44 PM »
John beautiful pies do you know the w for this flour. The fact that in not malted probably gets it close to the European flour . I want to try it is it available nationsly

Offline thezaman

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2012, 09:53:40 PM »
 john found the cm flour. it is malted. what is your experience with it. do i need to ferment it longer to reduce the effect of adding malt?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2012, 07:22:22 AM »
Hi Larry. The malted version will ferment faster, so adjust your yeast down slightly or retard your ferment if you want to work with the same time span. You should also note even the unmalted will ferment faster than Caputo due to the higher extraction rate - so plan accordingly. Same day doughs worked best for me.

John

Offline thezaman

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 11:26:39 AM »
thanks john, in the past when i tried h/r flour the pizza seemed to get closer to caputo after 48 hours of cold ferment.my thinking was that the longer fermentation used up the extra residual sugar that malted barley added to the flour. would the non malted flour bake better at high temperatures than the malted because of the lower sugar in the flour,or am i looking it this the wrong way?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: All purpose flour in the WFO
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2012, 11:33:06 AM »
thanks john, in the past when i tried h/r flour the pizza seemed to get closer to caputo after 48 hours of cold ferment.my thinking was that the longer fermentation used up the extra residual sugar that malted barley added to the flour. would the non malted flour bake better at high temperatures than the malted because of the lower sugar in the flour,or am i looking it this the wrong way?

I am not quite sure, but I think that fundamentally having basically powdered sugar in your dough is guaranteeing fermentation activity on a ramped up schedule, so more fermentation means more browning in the end product. I have never used a malted product in the WFO, but I know that Craig has and it has turned out fine.

In regards to this flour, you might get Marlon (bakeshack) to chime in because he is using the malted version with his bread making. He might have better insight.

John