Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 279992 times)

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Offline elsegundo

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #450 on: August 09, 2010, 01:23:03 AM »
Round Table doesn't use a starter according to the premix bag. Once again from the bag

11 lbs water at 80-85 degrees on #1 for 6 1/2 minutes
 24.25 lbs premix
which is flour, salt, partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil, sugar, nonfat dry milk, yeast

Cheese is mozzarella 80, sharp cheddar 10, smoky provolone 10. Sauce I don't know.


Offline jalessi

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #451 on: August 09, 2010, 01:49:32 AM »

I wonder if this company makes there pre-mix

http://www.pizzablends.com/dry-blend-products.php

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #452 on: August 09, 2010, 10:00:10 AM »
Someone (Lydia?) posted a while back that RTP used Mondako flour from Pendleton Mills as dusting flour.  I always assumed that they would then also use Pendleton Mills for making their regular pizza dough flour as well, but this may not necessarily be the case.

http://www.pfmills.com/
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #453 on: August 09, 2010, 12:09:53 PM »
Round Table doesn't use a starter according to the premix bag. Once again from the bag

11 lbs water at 80-85 degrees on #1 for 6 1/2 minutes
 24.25 lbs premix
which is flour, salt, partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil, sugar, nonfat dry milk, yeast

Cheese is mozzarella 80, sharp cheddar 10, smoky provolone 10. Sauce I don't know.


I think beyond experimentation this is the most solid facts we have on this pizza.

The starter pizza I made had a great sour flavor, but it was far from the "malty" RT crust flavor. I am really at a loss for how they get such a flavor profile in their crust. It's almost like they are using a brewer's yeast or something. Would this type of yeast grow in a dough and produce gases? I don't know if this is limited to being a liquid cultured strain or not.

Interestingly, the facts state that the crust is mixed for 6 1/2 minutes. This is far from being an underdeveloped dough. I understand the purpose of the underdeveloped dough methods are to help in the replacement of the sheeter. However the real process is different from those we have attempted in the home environment.

Any good online sources of pendelton mills flour that doesn't cost a small fortune in shipping?

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #454 on: August 09, 2010, 12:17:23 PM »
Dan:

You posted a while back that you thought using the scraps might impart more of the flavor to the crust than originally thought.  I had also been thinking along these lines (sort of like using some kind of preferment).  Have you tried using scraps in your dough more recently?  If so, how much did you use and what kind of effect, if any, did they have?

-ME
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #455 on: August 09, 2010, 12:24:54 PM »
Dan:

You posted a while back that you thought using the scraps might impart more of the flavor to the crust than originally thought.  I had also been thinking along these lines (sort of like using some kind of preferment).  Have you tried using scraps in your dough more recently?  If so, how much did you use and what kind of effect, if any, did they have?

-ME

I used ~200 g of scraps in the typical protocol that Peter developed. The flavor didn't seem to be altered much from the typical overnight fermentation process. It was about the same. The more I thought about it, to deliberately have your trademark flavor dependent upon a fixed amount of scrap in a commercial environment just doesn't make sense. Unless it's some special yeast strain that improves greatly with increased culturing, it just doesn't seem plausible. It may be part of the equation, but certainly it was no smoking gun.

I am intrigued about the flour now. Perhaps a bigger secret is in the wheat used to make the flour. I have been using All Trumps and although the structure is great, the flavor is substantially lacking.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #456 on: August 09, 2010, 03:11:44 PM »
Here is the mention of Mondako flour. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg56282/topicseen.html#msg56282

As I recall, there was some concern about whether or not this was the actual flour used to make the RT dough, or if it was only a dusting flour.  I suppose it's possible Pendleton Mills could be making a special formulated flour for RT.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #457 on: August 09, 2010, 05:23:06 PM »
Pendleton Mills does make a "pizza mix" but I have been unable to locate any of this retail. They list it as being used for thin cracker type crusts too:

http://www.pfmills.com/premiumpizzamixes.htm

I certainly would like to see a shot of the bag to see what the ingredients are. Do you think mills blend in some of the things found on the RT bag or is that done at some foodservice warehouse? I just wonder if it comes directly from the mill already bagged with the hydrogenated oils in it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 05:25:03 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline elsegundo

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #458 on: August 09, 2010, 11:12:21 PM »
The actual RT flour is: enriched wheat flour (bleached wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid).

Pendleton's pizza flour can be found occasionally in Cash and Carry markets, part of Smart & Final. Last I checked.



Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #459 on: August 11, 2010, 01:52:06 PM »
The All Trumps I am using #50143 has the following ingredients:

INGREDIENTS:
Wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, thiamin, riboflavin, folic acid

Aside from the iron sulfate and the bleaching, it's pretty close. Since the product is sold in CA I suspect it must also be an unbromated version as well. It has a high protein content, 14.2% as opposed to Mondako which is around 12%.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #460 on: August 11, 2010, 03:30:26 PM »
Dan:

The Gold Medal Better for Bread/Harvest King flour is also a 12% protein flour and has the following ingredients: Wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, iron, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid.
It's like an All Trumps but with a lower gluten content similar to the Mondako.  Perhaps that is why some of us found it to work well in our RT clones. Of course, just knowing the order of ingredients of the flour does not guarentee the exact quantity of those ingredients.

Evidently, the GM BfB flour did not work as well for you with your sheeter.  ???
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #461 on: August 11, 2010, 04:23:39 PM »
Yes I remember that experiment. The BFB did not give the same amount of bubbles from the lamination. Machinability was great, just not a lot of rise. Now that I think about it perhaps the hydration ratio was too high going from the AT to the BFB. Could you tell me what amount of water you are using with a given amount of flour?

Part of the trick with the lamination is wet doughs will reform and develop way too easily while sheeted down. In terms of ingredients, the list unfortunately is nothing unique. Just about every flour has that stuff in there  ::)

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #462 on: August 12, 2010, 10:50:14 AM »
Dan:

I having been using Lydia's cheater recipe, which is as follows:

12 oz Harvest King bread flour (a.k.a. Better for Bread)
4 oz Quaker Harina preparada flour tortilla mix
3/4 tsp instant yeast
8.40 oz water approx. 90°F

That comes out to ~ 52% hydration.  I have taken it down to 48% hydration at times with no problems.

Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #463 on: August 14, 2010, 12:01:46 AM »
Okay ME. this last experiment was for you, however a fair warning - I didn't take any pics so please excuse my laziness. 

I made two doughs last night. One was the cheater recipe you outlined in your previous post, the other was Peter's clone. I used gold medal BFB flour for both. I made the doughs with minimal hand kneading, bagged them and put them in the fridge overnight. Today at lunch time I sheeted both the doughs with the typical business fold, then down to 1/8", die cut, put on baking paper sitting on a pizza screen. I then wrapped them fully in plastic wrap until about 5 hours later when I made the pizza tonight. This prep process has been a consistent technique for all my crusts. I think it replicates the in-restaurant technique fairly closely.

The Results: First off, the crumb was more tender on both pizzas. I attribute this solely to the flour. Although the internal structure was good and moist, the results were quite negative on the bottom layer. It was crunchy but a "dry" crunchy. It simply did not have the same crispiness of the AT flour. The AT flour gives a very crunchy bottom that is easily broken up. This crunch however was more like a stale pita chip with the BFB flour. It's hard to describe, but it just didn't have the same "snap" as the crust made with AT flour. Also the surface was smooth and not completely blistered like I was seeing with the AT.

In terms of layer separation, I must say you guys aren't missing anything by doing the cheater formula without a sheeter. I did not see any more bubbles or layering than what I typically see Lydia post in her versions. That's not to say the pizza wasn't different, just that I didn't see some "overly" puffed up crust from having sheeted it.

I think the protein and gluten content of the AT is better for this style and closer to RT. I am on the hunt now for other flours in this class. I don't think Mondako is going to be worth the effort.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #464 on: August 14, 2010, 01:54:54 PM »
Hey there Dan  :D

Was the flavor still missing or not quite right when using BFB flour? And was the 5 hours in plastic, a room temperature ferment?

A recent issue I'm having with the cheater's recipe is that usually 4-5 hours room temp ferment has been plenty, but at my Mom's place this is actually too long. I get a dough that tastes like sourdough. there's alot of traffic at my Mom's, the refrigerator is constantly being opened, and items are moved around. So overall the dough is not getting chilled properly and easily overferments.

Dan, a while back I was making some SF warf bread using BFB flour, and I got alot of surface blisters from spraying moisture on the loaves and the oven walls. To me, this is making the steam from the RT ovens and residual moisture from refrigerating the skins seem more like the source of those tiny RT surface bubbles.

Dan, AT flour "was" the perferred flour for this style just prior to the HK/BFB flour. I have some of the Fisher/Pendleton Pizza blend flour. In the near furture, I'm hoping to try it in the Cheater's formula, to see how it does.

Lydia
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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #465 on: August 14, 2010, 01:59:49 PM »
Dan:

Wow!  Thanks for doing that experiment.  I am most impressed.  :chef:

Sorry it did not meet expectations.  I guess now you at least know one more thing that won't work.

I have one remaining question: how are you baking the pizzas?


P.S. Lydia, looking forward to your experiment results with the Fisher/Pendleton blend.
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #466 on: August 15, 2010, 10:46:50 AM »

Was the flavor still missing or not quite right when using BFB flour? And was the 5 hours in plastic, a room temperature ferment?

Lydia

After laminating the crust I put them in the refridgerator. I suspect it's the moisture on the cold dough which forms and gives rise to some of the blistering. The spray bottle method is also a good approach. It's not like it had no blisters, just not as many as the AT flour. I would say it was 50% blistered whereas with AT I am seeing 80%+ blistering across the whole bottom of the surface.

Taste was slightly more like bread. But still not the yeasty, malty, profile. Once you got past any of the crunch, you could definitely feel it was more tender like a pita.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #467 on: August 15, 2010, 10:50:54 AM »

I have one remaining question: how are you baking the pizzas?


This one was done on a screen using baking paper with the convection fan on. This is the same how I've been cooking all my pies. I previously found little difference using a stone over a screen, but perhaps I need to revisit this. I know RT made the switch from stone rotating hearths to the conveyor system and it didn't make much difference on their finished product as well.

I'd like to see you try some AT flour ME to see if you get the same differences in crust that I have been seeing. I'd also like to get your opinions on what you think is closer to RT. I can send you some if you like.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #468 on: August 15, 2010, 08:49:48 PM »
Dan:

Certainly, I'd be happy to try some AT flour.  Where would you suggest getting some (I don't want you to have to part with yours)?  I have never used AT before.  If you have an over abundance, then perhaps you can mail me some and I can pay you for the postage.

I have found using a preheated pizza stone gives me the best results.  Also, if the weather is cooperating, I will use my 2stone on my gas grill, which I think does a little bit better job than my run-of-the-mill electric stove oven.

Also, have you been using the recipe Petezza developed (~48% hydration) or a variation?

Thanks,

ME
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 09:13:11 AM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #469 on: August 16, 2010, 11:34:14 AM »
Pennmac http://www.pennmac.com/page/27 is probably your best bet. They also sell it in 5lb bags so you don't have to buy a full sack. I am using the 50143 one that is unbleached/unbromated. However, they also sell the infamous 50111 which is bleached and bromated. I haven't had the opportunity to try that one yet, however I suspect it's performance will be superior due to the bromate. You could also PM me your address and I'd happily send you a few pounds of what I have. I can buy it locally, so it's not a big deal for me to get more.

EDIT: I also just found this guy: http://www.fredsmusicandbbq.com/category_s/603.htm Seems a bit odd looking at the things they sell. I have never purchased from this site before. They have the bromated/bleached for $35 a sack. That is a very reasonable price. I paid ~$30 for the stuff I have.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 12:57:16 PM by DNA Dan »

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #470 on: August 16, 2010, 05:53:06 PM »
Where would suggest getting some

Restaurant Depot will have a bag for less than $18.

Restaurant Depot
Kansas City, MO   
1500 12th Street
Kansas City, MO 64101-1307
 
Phone: 816 472 5333
Fax: 816 472 5334

Restaurant Depot is for businesses only.  It helps if you know someone with a business license (or a non profit), but many RDs will give out one day passes to non business customers.

restaurant depot "day pass" - Google Search

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #471 on: September 08, 2010, 09:09:33 PM »
A Tale of Two Nights of the Round Table - Part One :-D

Thanks to DNA Dan, I received a hearty sample of All Trumps unbleached, unbromated flour to use as a test for making two Round Table pizza clones.  This was basically to serve as a personal test to see if this flour performed or ended up making the crust tasting any different than the GM Better for Bread flour that I normally use.  As a further test and requested by Dan, I made two pizzas with the flour using different methods to create the dough: one was Lydia’s cheater recipe and the other was Petezza’s RT clone recipe.  As there have been different versions of these recipes over the years, I am providing the recipes that I used down below.

Lydia’s Cheater Round Table recipe

12 oz flour
4 oz Quaker Harina preparada flour tortilla mix
0.25 oz (1/2 Tbsp) instant yeast
8.40 oz water approx. 90°F

The tortillas mix has most of the key ingredients, whey, L-cystine, shortening and salt with a few additional ones likes corn syrup solids and chemical leveners: sodium alum phosphate, sodium bicarbonate and monocalcium phosphate.

Process in food processor until just combined.
 
Use the metal chopping blade and pulse the food processor a couple of times, just until the crumbs start to stick together and the dough just barely holds together. There will be sticky areas as well as loose crumbs and undissolved yeast. 

Dump the dough/crumbs onto a long sheet of plastic wrap and seal it up.

Proof at the very least 3-4 hours room temp

Halfway through the "rest", fold the dough 2-3 times to help incorporate the crumbs and yeast.  After folding, divide the dough into 3 balls and place in plastic bags (typically old bread loaf bags).

Proof at least overnight in fridge for crisper crust.  (In this experiment, it was actually 2 days.)

Remove an hour or two to come to room temp.

Roll the divided dough balls in just a bit of flour, pat the dough into a disc of even thickness then roll the dough out without any additional flour or with only a barely visible coating.  Layer the three rolled out balls of dough, use a 14” pizza screen as a template and a pizza wheel cutting tool to cut out the appropriate round shape and diameter of crust.  Use a dough docker across the disc.  Add sauce, cheese and toppings as desired.

 
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #472 on: September 08, 2010, 09:13:12 PM »
A Tale of Two Nights of the Round Table - Part Two

Pete-zza RT Clone Alternative

Flour (100%):
Water (52%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (1.25%):
Shortening (1.75%):
Total (158.65%):   371.46 g  |  13.1 oz | 0.82 lbs
193.16 g  |  6.81 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.49 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.5 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
5.57 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.4 tsp | 0.47 tbsp
4.64 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
6.5 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.63 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
589.32 g | 20.79 oz | 1.3 lbs | TF = 0.0812
Note: nominal thickness factor = 0.08; 1.5% bowl residue compensation

For purposes of using the tool, I (Petezza) had decided on a 14” pizza size and a thickness factor of 0.08.

To prepare the dough, I put the dry ingredients into the food processor, and I added the water just as I did with Lydia’s recipe. The temperature of the water I used was about 90 degrees F

Instead of forming the dough ball into a rectangular log to then go into the refrigerator, I formed it into a square shape as per Petezza's instructions.  So, after placing the dough ball into a generally square-shaped plastic storage container and lightly coating it with shortening, I flattened the dough ball to conform to the shape of the storage container.  I would say that the dough piece was a little less than 2” thick. The dough went into the refrigerator, where it stayed for 2 days.

Upon removing the dough piece from the refrigerator, I placed it on the counter along with the 3 dough ball bags from the previous recipe and allowed the dough, still within its container, to warm up for about two hours.

I removed the dough piece from its container so that it would retain its square shape and put it onto a floured work surface.  I used my rolling pin and rolled out the dough to a approximately a 16” square.  I then used the same template, cutting, and docking technique that I had used with Lydia’s cheater recipe. 



Both of these pizzas were dressed with a basic sauce (combination of Bonta sauce/paste and Hunt’s tomato sauce 1:2, and Penzy’s pizza spice added for a reasonable amount of flavor), and the usual 8:1:1 mozzarella, sharp cheddar, and provolone shredded cheese combo I normally use (which also happens to be the ratio that RT uses these days).  The toppings were different: the cheater recipe pizza had Italian sausage and mushrooms, the Petezza RT clone was made basically into a Margherita pizza.
Both pizzas were cooked on my 2stone device in a gas grill.  Temperature of the bottom stone was ~ 680 degrees.  The first pizza (cheater) took about 5.5 minutes; the second one (clone) took about 6 mintues.  I should probably have removed both pizzas 30 seconds sooner than I did, but nonetheless they both still came out fine.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:24:19 PM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #473 on: September 08, 2010, 09:21:27 PM »
A Tale of Two Nights of the Round Table - Part Three

The results can be seen in the photos below.  As you can see, the Lydia cheater pizza puffed up considerably (which it normally does when I use that recipe with B-f-B flour and cook it on the 2stone).  In fact, it exploded in one area!  But, the nice thing about that is you can see the biscuit-like layers that are created from using her method, which to me is reminiscent of the actual RT pizzas I have consumed.  The crust was crisp on the bottom and in every way was what I would normally expect from using her recipe.  I noticed no difference in the final outcome from using the All Trumps flour compared to my historical comparators of having used GM B-f-B.

The Petezza clone had almost no puff to it.  The edge of the crust was crisp, but the rest of the crust was much softer and almost no crispness.  I suspect a good part of this problem was from the shortening: not just the shortening in the recipe, but also the layer added over the squared-out dough to prevent the skin from forming.  The taste was fine, perhaps slightly different than when I have made dough like this in the past with the same or similar recipes, but not so much so as to be well appreciated.  It reminded me more of the straight cracker-style crusts I have made (e.g., Shakey's).  So not a bad thing, but not what I was hoping to achieve.

In the end, in my kitchen with my technique(s) and my cooking apparatus, I noticed no appreciable difference in having used the All Trumps flour compared to my use of B-f-B.  The AT flour performed well, but did not add anything in terms of the final product for me to feel I need to make a switch.  I wonder if the bleached/bromated version would give a different result in terms of taste and texture.   In the end, I enjoyed the experiment. 

Many thanks once again to DNA Dan who provided the AT flour for me to use and the impetus to carry out this experiment. :chef: ;D 8)





« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:23:00 PM by Mad_Ernie »
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #474 on: September 09, 2010, 01:08:44 AM »
ME, Great write up on an experiment well done. I am reminded of the hockey pucks I was making prior to purchasing a sheeter. It's almost like the higher protein flours beg to be drilled down on a press or sheeter.

The cheater recipe is looking quite good in your hands. I would say for anyone looking to do this with a rolling pin, the cheater recipe is the way to go. The results were fantastic using simple methods. Was it difficult to layer and roll out? It's a 52.5% hydration?