Author Topic: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One  (Read 233974 times)

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #400 on: June 15, 2010, 03:20:06 PM »
Peter

I completely understand. It's the same here and our air conditioner broke down. It's been unbearable.

Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #401 on: June 15, 2010, 10:12:02 PM »
Peter, I guess part of what I am asking is this: Suppose you have a 65% hydration dough recipe using all purpose flour and a specific volume of water. If you swap the flour for something like AT or KASL, is the hydration of the dough still 65% using the same volume of water?

Reason this came about is I have tried some bread recipes that I made previously with AP flour and the dough seemed on the wet side. However when I used the same recipe with AT flour, the dough seemed very dry, almost as though I used too much flour. (or not enough water.) The exact opposite seemed to be the case with the BFB RT clone I recently tried. The dough seemed a little TOO hydrated. So much so that there was a fair amount of moisture on the bag after the 24 hour ferment. We have been having some huge humidity and temperature swings as of late, but I am trying to determine if there is a variable in terms of hydration between the different flours so I can best control this. I think this difference may have contributed to my disappointment with the BFB flour. The dough was simply a higher hydration % for whatever reason.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #402 on: June 16, 2010, 01:23:16 PM »
Dan,

If you use the same weight of all-purpose flour and the same weight of a high-gluten flour (such as AT or KASL), and you use the same weight of water for both flours, then the hydration of the two doughs will be the same (65% in your hypothetical if the correct weight of water is used). However, the two doughs will not perform the same. Because of the amounts of protein, starch and other elements in the two doughs (more on this in the links referenced below), the two flours will have different absorption values (the capacity to be hydrated by the water). For example, the rated absorption value of most all-purpose flours is around 60-61%; for bread flours, it is around 62%; for high-gluten flours, it is around 63%; for 00 flours, it can be around 55-58%. On this basis, 65% would normally be considered too high for all-purpose flour. It is possible to "cram" 65% water into all-purpose flour but to do this you would have to take measures like sifting the flour, adding the flour gradually, using a whisk attachment (along with other mixer attachments), and using autolyse or similar rest periods and other methods used in classic bread making. However, these measures are not typically used in a straight dough process. Of course, they are not used at RT. I should also note that pizza operators tend to use hydrations that are lower--sometimes markedly lower--than the rated absorption values. Usually this is done to end up with a dough that can be opened up easily and without excessive extensibility. It is not uncommon, for example, for a pizza operator to use a hydration of 57-60% for a high-gluten flour.

There are a couple of other considerations that you should be aware of. One is "operational absorption" and the second has to do with moisture content of flour. On the matter of operational absorption, which defines how a given flour is likely to perform in practice (as opposed to a laboratory absorption measurement), you might want to take a look at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8419.msg72940/topicseen.html#msg72940. See also the related post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4646.msg39204.html#msg39204.

The moisture content of flour can also affect its hydration qualities. Flour at the miller's facilities will usually start out at around 14-14.5% moisture (it can be over 15% for Italian and other national flours). However, over time, the moisture content can drop to as low as 10-11%. There are several factors that bring this result about, including the distribution channels used to get flours to resellers or retailers and the time in transit, the nature of storage facilities used to store flours (including temperature and humidity control), and the time that the flours remains in storage before being used. I think that is a major reason why fresh flour handles differently than flour (the same type and brand) that has sat in your pantry for over a year (or even a few months).

The above considerations dictate that one learn how to work with different flours and how to properly hydrate them in relation to their physical and chemical characteristics.

Peter


Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #403 on: June 17, 2010, 01:23:08 AM »
Peter,

Thank you for the wealth of knowledge. I am strictly using a scale and measuring carefully. I must be seeing these performance differences due to absorption, etc. which you describe carefully. I didn't think the effect would be this great given the small differences in percent absorption or protein content. Considering AP flour and a high protein flour like AT, the differences are only a few percent. (Moreso for the protein content.)

I suppose now that I am machining the dough, I am revealing these subtle differences more. Is it fair to say then that percent hydration is strictly based on weight and has nothing to do with how "wet" or "dry" a dough feels? I mean a 60% AP flour dough and a 60% 00 flour dough will "feel" totally different correct? I just want to make sure I have this straight when testing different flours and how they feel in my hands at a specific hydration percent.

Offline s00da

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #404 on: June 17, 2010, 07:04:38 AM »
Peter,

It is my personal belief that regardless of the good understanding and healthy amount of knowledge we have on the forum on the subjects of hydration and absorption rate, we still share formula's in an incomplete way. I think, when sharing a formula, the humidity level should be passed along with hydration. We are so sensitive to numbers - and we should - here that even a 0.5% hydration difference to us makes up a new formula. Still we ignore that humidity level differences in our environments can account for 2%+ difference!

During my time on this forum, I have stored flour in multiple places and multiple ways. Initially, I stored flour in the fridge, different kitchen shelves, big glass jars, sealed with plastic bags...etc. I clearly remember the many issues I had when I made dough. Humidity never occurred to me. Then as my pizza gear settled in one corner of the kitchen along with the flour, humidity got relatively consistent and I have been making dough that is pretty much consistent every time. I was more aware at that time of the temperature and I had that well under control. I have and MR unit, I have a temperature logger, I measure the temperature of my ingredients. Even my recipes/formulas now include temperatures!

Just last week, I got this idea of using a big plastic, airtight container for storing my flour. Guess what, in the same location of the kitchen, just having the flour inside this container, my favorite NY recipe using 63% hydration didn't come together. It was even the same bag of flour that I opened 2 days ago. As the machine was kneading I had to add "table spoons" to reach the same consistency. I had to go by feel and the pizza came out the way it should. How many grams of flour did I add? I don't know but I'm sure they were more than 6 or 7 table spoons. Thinking about it, how much did the hydration level change after the addition of extra flour; almost none of course cuz I reached the consistency I had a feel for.

This prompted me to think of ways to control this humidity issue just like I handled the temperature. I have a humidity meter and a dehumidifier on the way. I will run some test and will post you guys the results.

Saad


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #405 on: June 17, 2010, 10:28:54 AM »
Saad,

The subject of humidity and its effects on dough comes up from time to time and can lead to some interesting debate. See, for example, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3416.msg28981.html#msg28981. And the concern about the effects of humidity are usually quite legitimate, often coming from professionals, and not figments of one's imagination. I recall, for example, in a telephone conversation some years ago with Marco Bianco, Chris Bianco's brother, where he explained about having to deal with humidity and temperatures (in Arizona) all the time, including variations from season to season. Anthony Mangieri, formerly of UPN fame, has also raised the issue of humidity in dough making. Also, as you will note from an article by Tom Lehmann at http://web.archive.org/web/20100326065639/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php (click on the link Impatient?), he routinely gets calls from pizza operators who experience problems where humidity might be a factor.  

I personally have never worried about humidity. I think it was because I had researched the subject and had read several pieces on the subject of humidity by Tom Lehmann. Tom even responded directly to one of our members, barrelli, on the subject, which is given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3433.msg29165.html#msg29165. I found confirmation of what Tom reported through my own research, which I noted at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3331.msg28181/topicseen.html#msg28181.

In my discussion in the last post in this thread in reply to Dan, I focused more on absorption issues and related issues concerning flour moisture content. However, the way that one makes dough can also affect the final results in terms of achieving the desirable "feel". This is a point I raised in one of the abovereferenced threads, at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3416.msg28992.html#msg28992. Also, another important consideration is how the protein content of flour, even for the same brand from the same miller, can vary seasonally. This is a point that was raised by member Trinity, who is a professional baker, and discussed in a series of posts starting with Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3416.msg29094.html#msg29094.

Member November also weighed in on the subject of humidity, specifically in relation to temperature, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6492.msg55702/topicseen.html#msg55702. Unfortunately, the humidity tool mentioned in that post is no longer available.

My assessment of the above issues and factors suggests that there will be many instances where one will simply have to make minor changes (hopefully they will be minor) to the flour and/or water to achieve the desired finished dough condition.  

We should always be looking to challenge conventional wisdom so I look forward to the results of your experiments.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 07:46:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #406 on: June 17, 2010, 11:00:12 AM »
Is it fair to say then that percent hydration is strictly based on weight and has nothing to do with how "wet" or "dry" a dough feels? I mean a 60% AP flour dough and a 60% 00 flour dough will "feel" totally different correct? I just want to make sure I have this straight when testing different flours and how they feel in my hands at a specific hydration percent.

Dan,

From a strictly baker's percent standpoint, hydration is calculated by dividing the weight of water in the dough formulation by the weight of flour in that formulation. That calculation does not take any other factors into account. As previously discussed, including my last post, there are many other possible factors that can influence the final condition, or "feel", of the dough. So, you can't be assured that you will achieve the same results every time just because you carefully weighed out the flour and water. My practice is to make my pizza doughs in the same place with flours that are always stored in pretty much the same way (I may use different containers, usually tightly sealed) and in the same place (my pantry) and weighed the same way on the same scale using, as much as possible, the same bowls for measuring purposes. The machine I use to make the dough may vary (e.g., stand mixer versus food processor) but I would say that in about 90-95 percent of the cases, I do not have to adjust the flour and water. Even when I do, it is usually less than a teaspoon (for, say, a single dough ball to make a pizza of 14"-16"). I use the same set of measuring spoons for this purpose.

Peter

Offline fazzari

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #407 on: June 18, 2010, 06:50:49 PM »
Dan,
Here is one more thing to think of:  the dough you are mixing is close to the bottom margin of hydration.  So, I believe that on the margins, small changes in flour show up quickly in the dough texture.  It is my experience that even when using the exact same flour day after day, you can trace differences in dough to the lot numbers of the flour. (In fact, a few years ago we used to adjust the hydration for each lot number we had.)  As far as mixed dough goes, the differences show up as a very shaggy dough one day compared to almost a dough ball one day later using the exact same recipe, procedure, and mix time.  Further, it shows up in the sheeting process, in that one might have to  use different numbers one day versus the next to achieve a perfectly weighted skin....it is for all  of these reasons my brother and I are involved daily with dough production...unlike my past experience with a pizza franchise.

John

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #408 on: June 19, 2010, 05:41:40 PM »
Dan

Sorry for taking so long to respond. My husband threw out his back and now I'm taking him to therapy 3 times a week. Kitchen chemistry project time has dwindled down quite a bit.

Quote
Is the pizza sauce used as "dipping sauce" for the twists as well? Because although this tastes great on the whole pie, I don't really find it that enjoyable by itself.


Yes, the red sauce is the twist sauce. Some places pre-portion it in the cups and let it sit in the fridge until it's solid and has water floating on top  :-X and sometimes it's fresh and doesn't have the water added so it's very thick and almost gummy. It's best when they get the sauce from the make line.

I know what you're talking about when you describe my last sauce as flat. You're correct. In some ways my recipe was brighter than the RT samples but in another it was flat. But for me, what was important was that all nearly all the flavors were there.  When I'm cloning something I focus on identifying all the herbs and spices first before salt and sugar, then I nail down the correct spice/herb brands and then quantities. But after all is said and done. If something is left that I can't identify, it's usually ground celery seed, msg, citric or similar acid.

Unfortunately, even after I've got this thing "totally nailed", everyone will need to make adjustments since everyone wont have access to all the same brands and even then pungency varies. Example: If Mediterranean oregano is used in place of Mexican oregano, more will need to used and black pepper will need to be increased to get a similar flavor, but the consequence of this will be that increasing the herb/spice ratio will also increase the initial unpleasant bitter edge. When I post the final draft, I'll do my best to describe what the correct herbs and spices should taste and smell like.

more to follow...
Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #409 on: June 19, 2010, 06:18:31 PM »
Hi All!

I'm reporting on the lastest RT sauce revision, this is not the final draft, It doesn't have the thyme I recently found. And I'm wanting to verify the chili/paprika. The newest sauce sample I obtained from yet another RT is “fully loaded”.  It's just like the sauce I remember from the 80’s when the chili powder was unmistakable. “yippee!”  ;D  I don't believe this is a different sauce, I just believe that the paste to seasoning ratio is different. But we'll see, it could be that they're using “old operation manuals” with the backup recipes in them, instead of purchasing the spice blend. Either way, I'm excited to find out.

I plugged in the parsley, but I'm not liking it. My son insists it's in there, so we'll see if I can find some during the next sauce washing. I gave the option below of using either ground or dried Mexican oregano. I prefer the ground but it's not authentic. The ground Mexican oregano is found with died chili's in the ethnic isle or bulk spices. Citric acid aka sour salt is found either in the spice/canning or bulk spice isles.

Dry Spice Blend
ELEVEN HERBS & SPICES
1 -tsp Ancho chili powder- Trade Winds/Smart&Final
1-tsp Mexican oregano or 1/8-tsp ground Mexican oregano- El Guapo
1/2-tsp ground coriander- Trade Winds/Smart&Final
1/2-tsp ground cumin- El Guapo or Trade Winds/Smart&Final
1/2-tsp ground fennel seeds- Trade Winds/Smart&Final
1/2-tsp course Table grind- Malabar black pepper - McCormick
1/4-tsp granulated garlic- McCormick
1/4-tsp cayenne- Trade Winds/Smart&Final
1/8-tsp dried savory leaves- McCormick
1/8-tsp dried parsley flakes- McCormick
1/8-tsp ground Bay Leaves (laurel) -McCormick
Other
1/4-tsp citric acid- Mrs. Wages (omit or decrease to 1/8 tsp. if using Hunt’s)
1/8-tsp Damara sugar (should be dextrose but Damara working very well)

 use same seasoning ratios as outlined in the previous version.
Stir in a few tablespoons of hot water to help hydrate the seasonings.
The sauce will need to ripen in the refrigerator for 3 -4 days to develop full flavor and to obliterate any bitterness. It is soo worth the wait. And add a few tablespoons of water or to desired thickness as before using.

tasting notes: After all ingredients are added, it will taste very bright, sharp, sweet, bitter and hot. Basically, it’s very unpleasant, so don’t panic.

The RT sauce is hot, the heat should be primary felt on the tip of the tongue and a bit on the sides (not on the lips or back of throat common with other hot peppers). Don’t worry, on the pizza it only has a hint of heat.

If you taste the sauce before adding sugar there will be a lot of bitterness. There will be some bitterness remaining until the herbs and spices have been fully hydrated and most of the residual bitterness will be gone after ripening overnight. But the flavor will not be fully devloped yet.

I doubt RT cures the sauce for 4 days, and I personally don't want to wait that long. I have a few tricks up my sleeve to try to fix this.

Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline DNA Dan

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Friday night's pizza
« Reply #410 on: June 20, 2010, 01:01:56 AM »
Here is the latest pizza I cooked. I went back to the All Trumps flour because I have a lot of it and it gives me a great crunch. I haven't given up on the BFB flour, I just want to focus on the "malty" flavor and I need to keep the flour constant. Since I have a lot of AT flour and I know how it performs with my machine, I am sticking with it for now.

The dough recipe used:

481 g All Trumps Flour
232 g Water
10 g Shortening (crisco)
10 g Salt
10 g Sugar
10 g Nonfat baker's special dry milk (KA brand)
2 g Instant yeast (SAF red label)
1 tsp. Diastatic Malt powder

Dough was mixed in a bowl using just a fork, then by hand just until all the flour was fully incorporated. Placed in a ziploc bag and refrigerated for 48 hours. Brought out at lunchtime and sheeted using 2-4 passes down to 1/8" then folded in thirds, sheeted again for 2-3 passes back down to 1/8" thick. Placed on pizza screen and fully covered with plastic wrap. Brought out about 4-5 hours later, dressed and cooked at 475 degrees for 10 minutes with CONVECTION fan on the entire time.

For the sauce I used a the one proposed by Lydia a few weeks back (With the paprika) with the following exceptions:
Increased:
Mexican oregano to 2 tsp.
Granulated Garlic to 1/2 tsp.

Decreased:
Cumin to 1/4 tsp.

SAVORY!? Geeze Lydia you're all over the place with your tongue! ;D I'll have to try that next. It's getting harder and harder to tell the difference in the changes. They are getting more and more subtle. I still don't have RT sauce to test against, so I am not being true to the prize. I have been adjusting for my own tongue. The "flatness" I think comes from too much Cumin. By lowering this in your recipe it brings out more of the zest from the paprika and coriander. Again, I don't have the RT sauce with me, so I am sure you're closer to the real deal. My only gripe is by itself it doesn't taste like a good "dipping" sauce. Which is why I asked that question in the first place. Adding more oregano makes it more palatable as a dipping sauce. I have also just been preparing it 1-2 days in advance. I will try ripening it longer to see how the taste changes.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 01:16:27 AM by DNA Dan »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #411 on: June 20, 2010, 01:09:32 AM »
Some final thoughts:

The convection or "upper heat" is critical. I found with the convection on I was seeing bubbles appear from the center of the pizza. Normally just the rim was bubbly. I assume there is some critical surface temperature that the dough needs to hit for the layers to start steaming away from each other. Having the sauce at room temperature also probably helped with this.

I am running out of external things to try to increase the malty flavor profile of the dough. The texture and structure are there, but the crust just doesn't really taste like much. The non-diastatic malt powder was probably the best in terms of flavor, but the sugar needs to be cut by 5 g since that also has a sweetening effect on the dough. The pepperoni grease, the cheese, sauce, etc. all contribute to a very close RT taste, however that yeasty taste in the crust it still lacking. This last pizza went 2 days in the cooler. Beyond that I am starting to think if this flavor is better developed from using more yeast. Also perhaps switching to an ADY. Any thoughts on this? Can I add say 2-3 times the yeast and increast the salt to retard it? Since there is so little yeast in the dough, I don't think it's really contributing to the flavor much.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #412 on: June 20, 2010, 01:20:53 AM »
Dan,
Here is one more thing to think of:  the dough you are mixing is close to the bottom margin of hydration.  So, I believe that on the margins, small changes in flour show up quickly in the dough texture.  It is my experience that even when using the exact same flour day after day, you can trace differences in dough to the lot numbers of the flour. (In fact, a few years ago we used to adjust the hydration for each lot number we had.)  As far as mixed dough goes, the differences show up as a very shaggy dough one day compared to almost a dough ball one day later using the exact same recipe, procedure, and mix time.  Further, it shows up in the sheeting process, in that one might have to  use different numbers one day versus the next to achieve a perfectly weighted skin....it is for all  of these reasons my brother and I are involved daily with dough production...unlike my past experience with a pizza franchise.

John

John, I totally understand your situation now that I am consistently trying to produce this style over and over again. The hydration percent and how the dough "feels" seems very critical to the final results.

It's good to be the dough police!  ;)

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #413 on: June 20, 2010, 03:03:21 AM »
Dan

Those pictures sure look tasty :P How does the internal texture compare to rt? does it separate the same way..you know kinda craggy?

Dan, I've been placing my cheater dough in the fridge immediately after making and it isn't ready to be used until day 3. If I give it a 3-4 hours room temp. ferment before refrigerating, and letting it come to room temp before using, I can use it next day (3rd day it's ready to be tossed or made into pretzels).

By all means adjust the cumin as needed. I tried dropping the cumin down to 1/8 tsp. and brought it up to 1/4 which was acceptable, but settled on 1/2 tsp. for a match, but the cumin you have my need to be at 1/4tsp. It's OK for the coriander to stand out a bit but the cumin should only be cementing the "chili powder flavor". So you should be able to taste the cumin but it shouldn't be assaulting you're taste buds. But for now, seriously let it mature. It made a "world" of a difference" it will be a perfectly acceptable twist dipping sauce  :angel:

Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #414 on: June 20, 2010, 07:59:11 PM »
Dan

Those pictures sure look tasty :P How does the internal texture compare to rt? does it separate the same way..you know kinda craggy?

Lydia

The internal structure seems a bit on the dry side.  I think this is attributed to the AT flour. It separates okay on the edges, no so much in the center. Using the convection fan in my oven the center separated like the edge. Also, if you could imagine the layers numbered 1-3 starting from the bottom, I have no problem getting layers 1 and 2 to separate. Sometimes however layers 2 and 3 sort of stick together and form a thicker than usual gummy layer. Again the direct heat circulation with the convection fan helps with this. If you don't have a convection fan, I would suggest cooking for 5 minutes then turning the broiler on for 3-5 minutes more.

Offline Shaklee3

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #415 on: June 20, 2010, 11:19:19 PM »
Lydia, I still have my sample cup of sauce from RT and I guarantee that unless your RT uses a different sauce than mine, there is some basil in it. As I mentioned in a previous post, the basil and fennel taste were the first things my wife and I tasted when we tried it. That was followed by a very potent hit of ground pepper. In the sauce we have I only detect a *slight* hint of ancho, which may not even be there at all. I think we must have different sauce sources. I'm going to try to use this sauce that I have and reproduce it based on your ideas and the different things I taste in theirs. I wish it were easier to pick out the spices.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #416 on: June 21, 2010, 05:23:55 AM »
Shaklee

I'm so sorry, I meant to address the basil you mentioned to me before. I've been sampling RT sauce on a regular basis for the last 3 or so years (I'm not counting the ones I did 20 some years ago). I hadn't been able to pick out any basil, it was one of the first herbs I was looking for. But last month fresh basil was showing up in sauces at various RT in different cities well over 30 miles apart. RT sauce has been made from dried herb and spice blend for decades. You mentioned that the basil was very aromatic but not so pungent in flavor. This is exactly how "fresh basil" would be perceived. good job, BTW. The fresh basil should have a good mild anisey flavor and just a bit peppery (like black pepper).
•   May 2005 – Changes at RT -........  Something new was in both samples. It appears to be fresh minced basil and flat leaf Italian parsley. The fresh basil makes sense, since they brought back the artisan pepperoni, they would have fresh basil available at the end of the day that could be thrown in, but the parsley has me a bit puzzled. Maybe they’re goin’ for the “now even fresher” theme that most chains are doing to boost sales  ???  I’ve mentioned in the past that I couldn’t detect basil. Well, since the new sauce had fresh basil, I don’t really have a way to know for sure. Since there is soo many herbs and spices in the sauce I could have been thrown off........ 
after this post I was able to get older sauce samples without the fresh basil. So that is what I'm digging through and sampling right now. So technically I have 3 versions in my fridge. :o It's absolutely Golden, but it has me a bit overwhelmed, so if you'd like to work on the current sauce, that would be great. I'm mostly worried about the other 2 "older" versions.

The reason the spices are hard to pick out is because it is "mostly" balanced. You're not suppose to be able to pick the individual flavors out. Balance is what makes something taste "great". It's like Coke or Heinz ketchup...hardly anyone can pick out all the spices.

There could have been more changes than that, but the core of the RT sauce is indeed: fennel, garlic and a comfortable dose of chili pepper heat. As long as those ingredients are there, most people will say it tastes like round table and some might say that something is missing, but overall most people will be satisfied.

Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline FoodieZ

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #417 on: July 04, 2010, 04:08:07 PM »
Lydia,

New to this forum... joined because I've been trying to figure out how to replicate this sauce for a long time, and I have to hand it to you as I think you have it figured out better than my wandering attempts. Anyway, I find it interesting to compare my current version to your latest one, both the similarities and the differences. I am always trying different measurements, but my "11 Herbs and Spice" mix has looked like this:

ground black pepper
mexican oregano
basil
granulated garlic
ground cayenne pepper
ground fennel seed
chili powder
paprika
coriander
cumin
ground allspice   (sometimes I think I detect something along these lines, maybe it's cardamom or a tiny amount of cloves, or maybe I'm getting this from another one of the spices above, who knows)

other:
brown sugar   (what is damara sugar? closest reference I could find is "demerara sugar")

 
FZ
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 04:19:27 PM by FoodieZ »

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #418 on: July 05, 2010, 02:46:27 PM »
Hi FZ! I wanted to pop-in real quick and say “welcome to the forum”!

Demerara is correct, it looks my auto-spell changed the spelling on me.  ::)

I have tried cardamom, but I just couldn’t get it to “work”. The good news is that once you get all the recently “confirmed herbs” in the sauce they combine to create camphor-like nuances that is similar to cardamom. It seems that it’s mostly from the thyme.

I’ll be posting my recent findings soon, probably not until at least Thursday, when I anticipate that I’ll have time.
In the mean-time, Happy Cloning!

Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One
« Reply #419 on: July 06, 2010, 07:40:12 PM »
Hi All
Had a cancelled appointment so I got time to post today. So here’s the updates……

Tasting notes: I was having a lot of trouble verifying the paprika/ancho chili powder in the samples. So what I did was replace the ancho with paprika, then tripled the spice ratio so that there was enough of the seasoning in the sauce to stand out. It became very obvious that paprika isn’t used in place of the ground ancho in the RT sauce. The flavor was completely wrong. But if it was all that you had on hand, it still makes a very good sauce. I actually still think that a 50/50 of ancho and paprika makes a better sauce.

Once it got down to the nitty-gritty, I had to place the dried herbs on my tongue and allow it to hydrate and chew the leaf and then compare it to the tiny herb particles washed from the sauce. The taste of the dry herbs on the tongue was pretty nasty, it’s way too bitter, but it was the only way I was going to isolate and discover what the subtle herbs in this sauce were. I’m glad I was able trudge through the process, because I learned a lot. I compared initial flavor which is usually the same as the aroma, then the finish, what areas in the oral cavity were stimulated (which is hard to explain without a diagram) and finally comparing the hydrated herb color.

Found During Washing:

Mexican Oregano: HOT Most dominate herb flavor in sauce. Dark herb, initial flavor matches aroma; finishes with flavor identical to black pepper with identical heat stimulating the same areas on tongue. It’s actually has a good amount of “kick”. I wasn’t aware of a “HOT herb”. Initially I was mistaking the small dark particles as coarse black pepper. Brands that worked are McCormick Gourmet and El Guapo.

Dried Savory: Second most dominate herb flavor sauce. Brands that worked McCormick Professional and McCormick Gourmet ground savory (told by spice merchandiser that it has been discontinued).

Dried Thyme: I obviously had the most trouble with this one, since it’s the final herb. I really couldn’t taste or smell it until I started using it in the sauce. Washing found stems and blossom heads. Be careful with brands, I purchased an off-brand and it was so potent that it smelled just like spic and span floor cleaner. :o I do not know if this was because it was a different genus of thyme or if it was just old. I just know this wasn’t right for the sauce.

Dried Parsley: I found very minute amounts. Initial flavor is bland and bitter but finishes with subtle black pepper, anise and citrusy notes it’s also a bit reminiscent of tarragon. If adding to current dry mix you’ll need 1/32 tsp.

Granulated Garlic TANGY/ZESTY Granulated garlic is easily tasted and seen dispersed throughout the sauce. Garlic has also been quoted from RT sauce ingredients. I personally haven’t found any significant differences between brands but do make sure that you’re using granulated and not powdered garlic.

Black Pepper: HOT I didn’t find the black pepper until the sauce was washed and strained with a liner. The black pepper is actually a very fine grind. The pepper is harder than the herbs and crunches between the teeth.

The Rest of the Spices and Herbs:

Ancho provides the primary chili element with just the tiniest hint of smoky raisin. Smoky in this case isn’t smoke-flavor like you find with Chipotle or McCormick Gourmet Ancho.

Ground Cumin, PUNGENT if you can find it, should be fresh, not toasted, and have a green hue, not sandy brown or worse dark brown. It should have a clean chili con carne flavor, more aromatic than pungent and more sweet than bitter.

Bay Leaf: PUNGENT Bay should smell like sweet lemon and a bit clove-like. I couldn’t confirm the bay leaf by visual inspection. If you choose to omit this, replace with sweet paprika. I am using McCormick ground bay. I recommend not grinding your own bay leaves. It is difficult to grind them fine enough but if you choose to do so you will need 12 small bay leaves to equal 1 tsp ground bay.

Cayenne HOT There are several different peppers that may be labeled as Cayenne.  Make sure that your paprika has the aroma of hot peppers and not like sweet ripe red bell peppers.

Ground Coriander Seed: AMALGAMATING/SWEET Coriander is probably the most important spice, enhances and marries all the other spices. Aroma is earthy with lemony-orange citrus notes. Or to quote my son “Hey! This smells just like “fruit loops”.  :-D Dried cilantro is not an acceptable substitute.

Ground Fennel Seed: AMALGAMATING/SWEET The flavor of the fennel is easily picked out in the RT sauce. It’s also the primary contributor to the sweet flavor in the sauce. Fennel also enhances and marries all the other spices just not in the same way as the coriander.

Citric Acid TANGY/ZESTY Can be omitted if using Hunts improved tomato paste, but if you find that the flavor is lacking for your tastes, you’ll want to hunt this down. (AKA Sour salt). Found in canning/pickling supplies, spice isles, or specialty cake and candy supply stores.

Demerara Sugar here is a link http://chickensintheroad.com/blog/2009/01/11/natural-sugars/ for those who are wondering what this is. I found mine more economically in bulk bins. I have not tried the turbinado/Sugar In The Raw in place of the demerara. But the demerara sugar I have is lighter like the turbinado sugar at this link. So it may have been mislabeled. Mine doesn’t have a pronounced molasses flavor, and the sweetness is not sharp like granulated cane sugar (like the difference between table salt and kosher salt). I’ve already mentioned that brown sugar has too much molasses flavor.

Lydia
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.