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[DNA Dan]

The GM H&R was all I could find so far locally. I really hate to drop down $50 to get a 50lb sack of All Trumps shipped here. I figure if it's too limp I could spike it with some KASL. 50/50? 60/40%  I will try this out this week and post some photos. I am seriously looking at some other method besides "rolling" the dough for the sheeting process. This is really critical, but I just can't seem to locate something that is reasonably priced. The KitchenAid attachment is decent, but you need to have the mixer with that! I'll have to see how thick my pasta roller goes. . . .

[DNA Dan]

I made some dough tonight to make a pizza tomorrow. I used Peter's suggestions from the "test dough" on the RT part two thread. The percents are as follows:

100% Flour (General Mills Hotel and Restaurant #14323)
48% Water
1.75% Salt
1.5% Crisco
1.0% Sugar
1.0% Dry Milk
0.5% ADY

The dough seemed a bit more firm then when I did this recipe using KASL, which surprised me. Also it "seemed" to smell more like the RT crust. I don't know if I was actually smelling the malted barley or if this was simply wishful thinking 

The dough was kneaded by hand for 10 minutes, allowed to rest for 5 minutes, then put in the refridgerator. I will wait 24 hours before proceeding......

[Pete-zza]

DNA Dan,

I look forward to the results you achieve using the new flour.

In the meantime, I have taken a stab at reformulating the dough recipe I previously posted. In so doing, I first calculated an amount of dough to make an 18” x 18” sheet of dough (weighing 26.25 oz.) from which to cut a 16” dough skin (weighing about 16.3 oz.). Second, as a result of running different sets of numbers through my spreadsheet, I concluded that it is more than likely that the amount of flour in a 24.25 lb. bag of RT pizza flour is closer to 22.80 lbs. rather than the 23 lbs. we previously assumed. So, I proportionately reduced the amount of flour in my new formulation, which had the effect of slightly increasing the hydration from a baker’s percent perspective. In actuality, the final hydration of the dough will be less when all the bench flour that is added to the dough during the rolling process is accounted for. Third, I increased the shortening (Crisco) to 1.75%, and also the amounts of sugar and nonfat dry milk. To compensate for the latter changes, and particularly the amounts of sugar and nonfat dry milk, I reduced the IDY to a level that should still allow for a 2-3 day cold fermentation.

I noticed that you are using ADY. I have always assumed that IDY is used in the RT pizza flour because ADY requires activation in warm water. If the ADY came in a separate packet, even with other ingredients, then that would strongly suggest ADY.

In the new formulation, I referenced the nonfat dry milk as being the Carnation brand. I am fairly certain that the RT pizza flour includes a high-heat baker’s grade nonfat dry milk. King Arthur sells such a product although I was able to purchase a smaller-size bag from The Prepared Pantry at http://www.preparedpantry.com/. I have noted in the new formulation the amount of the baker’s grade dry milk to use if one has it. The advantage of the baker's grade form of dry milk is that it can be mixed directly in with the flour and other dry ingredients.

The final reformulation looks like this:

100%, Flour, 481.08 g., 16.97 oz.
48.3%, Water, 232.36 g., 8.20 oz.
1.75%, Salt, 8.42 g., 0.30 oz., 1 1/2 t.
1.75%, Shortening (Crisco), 8.42 g., 0.30 oz., 2 1/8 t.
1.25%, Sugar, 6.01 g., 0.21 oz., 1 1/2 t.
1.25%, Nonfat dry milk (Carnation), 6.01 g., 0.21 oz., 4 1/8 t. (a bit more than 1 5/8 t. if baker’s grade)
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 1.92 g., 0.068 oz., a bit more than 5/8 t
Total dough weight = 744.23 g (26.25 oz.)
Thickness factor = 0.081

I also reworked the dough rolling steps that ThatOneGuy posted to fit the case where we are only making a single sheet of dough for a single dough skin, rather than a long continuous strip from which several dough skins are cut, and where we are substituting a rolling pin for the rolling machine (sheeter). Since the instructions that ThatOneGuy posted were with respect to forming a sheet rather than a circle, I would be inclined to shape the finished dough piece as it goes into the refrigerator into a rectangular shape rather than into a round ball. The differences may be slight, but it might make it a bit easier to roll the rectangular dough piece into a rectangular sheet than trying to do that with a round ball or disk. I would also work with the dough cold as soon as it comes out of the refrigerator, just as RT appears to do. Here is the set of instructions I came up with for handling the dough:

Making a dough circle for a standard pizza
-- Take the dough out of the refrigerator.
-- Spread a decent amount of flour over the counter so the dough doesn't stick.
-- Set the dough on the counter and flatten it out a bit, trying to keep a generally rectangular shape.
-- Spread a little flour over the top of the dough.
–  Dust the rolling pin with flour.
–  Roll the dough to a thickness of about 1.5”.
–  Smooth the dough out with hands, trying to make a fairly smooth rectangular slab, free of pockets and bulges.
-- Spread some more flour over top of the dough.
-- Put some more flour on the rolling pin.
–  Roll the dough out to a thickness of about 3/4 “.
-- Smooth the dough with the hands, getting rid of any pockets/cracks/bulges and maintaining the rectangular shape.
-- Spread lots of flour evenly over the top of the dough and then wipe away excess flour.
-- Fold the dough along its length - from the right side (facing the dough) to the center.
-- Spread lots of flour evenly over the top of the folded portion, then wipe away excess flour.
-- Fold the dough again - bringing the unfolded 1/3 portion over the top of the folded 2/3 portion.
-- Spread a light, even coat of flour over the top of the length of dough.
-- Flatten out the length of dough a bit, starting from the center and working out toward the ends.
-- Flip the length of dough over and spread a light, even coat of flour on the bottom side, then flip the dough back over.
-- Make sure the length of dough is free of cracks, pockets and bulges.
-- Roll the dough to 1.5”, and then to 3/4”.
-- Put some more flour on the rolling pin, and roll the dough out, in succession, to about 3/8”, 3/16”, and 1/8”, with the objective of creating a sheet of dough that is about 18” x 18”.
-- Dock the sheet using a 5”docker.
-- We now have a sheet with holes in it that almost go all the way through.
-- Cut a 16” round out of the docked sheet of dough, using a 16” disk (or screen) as a guide. There should be about 2” to spare (scrap).

I have not tried the above set of instructions so it is possible that some modification and free-lancing may be necessary to get the desired final size of the sheet from which the 16” skin is to be cut. If the exercise is properly executed, based on the 16” skin size and the 0.081 thickness factor, the weight of the 16” skin should be around 20.7 oz., as previously noted.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Just to clarify, I did use the baker's special dry milk from the KA website, not Carnation brand.

Today I took the dough out of the fridge. I preheated my oven to 500F and placed the pizza stone about halfway up in the oven. I proceeded to roll out the dough until I had it large enough to make a decent fold. I liberally used flour as I rolled and flipped the dough. I then folded the dough into thirds, then proceeded to roll it out again. The second time I folded the dough in thirds again, but from the two remaining sides that weren't in the previous fold. This way none of the edges were showing the layers of the dough. I then rolled it to about 1/8" and cut it with a knife using my pizza screen as a template. I docked the dough then flipped it onto the pizza screen. I dressed the pizza with some 6in1 sauce that was made with Penzeys pizza seasoning. I then added the cheese in the proportions of 3 mozz, 1 provolone, 1 medium cheddar. I then threw on some Gallo "premium" pepperoni and sliced raw mushrooms. I then added about 1/2 cup of topping cheese.

This went into the oven for ~12 minutes, after 5 of which, I removed the screen to crisp up the bottom.

The results were pathetic in terms of texture. But in terms of taste, I think I am on to something. (More about this after the pics.)

[DNA Dan]

First things first, I didnt' get ANY layers out of the dough. Perhaps this is because I used ADY instead of IDY, but I did activate the yeast in warm water and the dough did rise in the fridge a fair amount. The dough did not show ANY over bubbly activity or blistering on the surfaces, not the top, nor the bottom.

Peter, the pizzas I see on these forums from your posts which are layered in structure, are those done using a rolling pin? I am starting to think that it's impossible to reproduce the exact same structure of the cracker style without the use of a sheeter. I did an exeriment with my scraps of dough after the pizza failed to give me a layered structure. I took some scraps and ran them through my pasta maker. I folded it about 6 times in half, in thirds, etc. The difference here is that I used TONS of flour. I mean I made sure that the two halves would surely separate. I then cut it out with a bowl and cooked it on the pizza stone. Now remember this is the SAME dough, just a different technique using a pasta roller to sheet it. My hypothesis: Does using MORE flour with a higher FORCE produce better or more layering than done by hand with a rolling pin? See for yourself....

[DNA Dan]

So surely with no toppings I am going to get a decent rise out of the dough circle. Also the fact that there is so much flour almost certainly guarantees one of the layers will not fully reform with the remaining crust. However, I did fold it about 6 times, and there is only about 2-3 layers. It does look closer to what wer're after, although it was a bit drier.

Now to the taste. The flour by far needs to be malted. The taste was much closer to RT with this flour. The cheese blend was right on target, 3 parts mozzarella, 1 part provolone, 1 part cheddar was the ticket. The pepperoni I used really surprised me. I have had the Gallo brand before, but this was the "premium" Gallo brand. I picked this up at Cash and Carry on San Carlos in San Jose. This pepperoni really tasted like a commerical type pepperoni you would expect in a pizzaria. The sauce was way off, but the cheese made up for it. This gave me more insight into how to go about tackling the sauce, because the cheese component was really close to the real thing. 

The cooking was also a disappointment. 500F is not hot enough to cook this thing in <8 minutes like a conveyor oven. I don't think I will be able to recreate the oven conditions of a conveyor. Clean cycle anyone?

I need to get the layering down. Every time I try to make this I cannot get any "puff" out of the dough. Any pointers in this area? I folded and folded and rolled and rolled, flouring each time. To be honest I don't think it matters much if you do a book fold, a tri-fold, or bi-fold. If the nature of the dough is correct, it shouldn't make TOO much of a difference.

[DNA Dan]

I just thought of something else. Is it possible that they sheet the dough super thin, fold it on itself and stamp out the pies without sheeting again? They may dock it just to keep the layers together, and the pressing of the die with surely seal off the end as Lydia described to keep the end of the dough from separating. I say this because everytime I go to RT, you can hear them docking the dough A LOT and really HARD. I mean they punch that thing all the way through the dough. Just maybe that's the trick?

My knowledge of baking is that you produce layers in a dough one of two ways; 1) With fat (butter, shortening, oil, etc.) or 2) With flour. When I used excessive flour and force on the pita I made, it had similar structure of layering, but the layers were tough, not gummy. That would lead one to suspect that the RT layering is made possible by fat. However as Peter noted, the shortening is lower on the list of ingredients than the salt.

I am pretty sure you guys did a solid investigation on the hydration of the dough. That was some great work! So assuming that is 100% correct, it seems like rolling it out to produce a layered dough by adding MORE flour is two mutually conflicting things. The more you roll it, the more it reforms with itself due to the hydration to begin with. It's a pizza paradox!

[Pete-zza]

DNA Dan,

Whenever a dough recipe calls for rolling out a piece of dough, whether it is for a deep-dish crust, cracker-crust, thin crust or a Donatos clone dough, I use a rolling pin. There is a difference, however, between using a rolling pin and a sheeter. Tonight, I listened to a Tom Lehmann audio segment at http://www.pizzaradio.com/ (October 30, 2006) in which Tom discusses some of the main differences between using a rolling pin to roll out dough as compared with a sheeter. Apparently the sheeter is a lot harder on the dough than using a rolling pin, with the sheeter doing a number on the dough from the standpoint of degassing it. So, if significant degassing of the dough is a material step in producing the RT dough/crust with the particular characteristics you described and showed, you might be right in concluding that using a rolling pin won't do the job with an RT-type dough and that a sheeter is needed. But I am not willing to concede that at this point. I might if I were convinced that we couldn't replicate the dough formulation. I think the fact that you have satisfied yourself that a more highly malted flour is needed is a step in the right direction. Getting the cheeses and pepperoni nailed down is also a step in the right direction, and one less thing to think about.

I don't think that using the ADY was a factor in the results you got. However, when I try to reverse engineer a dough, I try to get as close as I can to the ingredients and methods used in making the target dough. As an example, if a perforated dark anodized baking disk is used, I want to do the same because using a pizza stone or a pizza screen won't produce the same results. I also don't think that your oven is deficient. I have made many pizzas in my home oven using temperatures comparable to those used in commercial deck and conveyor ovens. And, surprisingly, my bake times aren't a whole lot different than those used in the commercial ovens. The reason I laid out the precise steps to follow to prepare the RT dough on the bench was to be able to determine if those steps will reproduce what RT is doing. If the steps don't work, then we have to look at other aspects of the whole process. It's all about ruling things in and out.

I also tend to doubt that RT is crimping together two skins to make one out of them. I suppose it's theoretically possible, but ThatOneGuy never described such a procedure or even hinted at it. His descriptions were thorough and complete, and obviously presented with great forethought and care. If we discover at some point that heavy duty docking is indeed a material step, then that is an easy one to replicate. However, usually docking is to prevent sections of the dough/crust from separating. Most often, the docking is needed because the dough is too cold. However, it may also be a cultural thing at RT, as was previously mentioned by one of the members.

Peter

[rextristen]

hello, im new to this forum... i did't read the whole thread, but can someone tell me if there is a recipe in here for round table pizza dough? please help

[Pete-zza]

hello, im new to this forum... i did't read the whole thread, but can someone tell me if there is a recipe in here for round table pizza dough?

No, there is no actual recipe, only a few experimental ones, which you can find by scanning the thread.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Peter,

I used what I had on hand. I need to make a shopping round to gear up for the next test. I need to get a perforated disk, a more appropriate docking device and some different flour. What did you think of the flour? I certainly want to go for the malted All Trumps now. Someone on here mentioned 475 as the temp for RT pizza. Has this been verified with insider knowledge?

I think I will hold off on the sheeter conclusion for now since those are so expensive. Did you think that the pasta roller experiment is worth doing again next time I try the new formulation? The forces are MUCH different than the force you can get on it with a rolling pin. Especially with all the flour usage between layers.

[Pete-zza]

DNA Dan,

I tried to find the specs on the GM #14323 H&R flour at the GM flour site but couldn't locate that particular version. That may be intentional for sales made through Cash N Carry. However, I do know that the H&R general purpose flour has a protein content of about 10-11%. GM itself recommends that the A-P H&R flour be used for deep-dish doughs and that higher-gluten flours be used for thin-style pizza crusts. Out of curiosity, what did the GM H&R flour cost in relation to the other GM flours you saw at Cash N Carry? Usually, H&R flours are a few dollars cheaper than the other flours, although the spread may not be that wide because of the effects of shipping charges that apply equally to all 50-lb. bags. I don't know if the All Trumps is the answer, but I think it will come closer to what you are looking for than the GM 14323.

As for oven temperatures, elsegundo said in Reply 19 of this thread that the oven temperature at RT is 495 degrees F. Later, in Reply 25, he said that he had an RT pizza baked at 505 degrees F.

Based on what elsegundo has said on different threads, I would say that using a pasta machine has merit. If you can get the right flour, I would certainly consider the pasta machine because it is more likely to come closer to a sheeter than a rolling pin. I personally would consider trying out the modified ThatOneGuy's instructions using a rolling pin even if it is just to get a feel for the dough and a sense of how RT prepares the final skins.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

I see whats going on wtih the GM site. They have different numbers typically to indicate different size sacks. Here is the like to the spec sheet on the flour I used.

http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/H&R%20%20Bleached14314.DOC

If you look at the top in the column labeled "Code" you will see #14323. It was a 25# sack, not 50#, so that's why you didn't see it on their site.

The flour is also an "All Purpose" type flour.

The recipes on the GM site for thin crust, recommend All Trumps, Superlative, or Supreme High Gluten. This is also in line per your suggestions to use a higher protein flour. The problem though is that All Trumps comes in two varieties, bleached and unbleached. The bleached form says it contain Potassium Bromate, which isn't on the RT label. It's tough working this out when there are 2 major variables at play here:1) the flour and 2) the sheeting technique. 

[Lydia]

Dan

I find your pizza pics very encouraging. I know the layers are absent but it "looks" like it's heading in the right direction.

Did the texture of the crust seem thoroughly cooked but somehow doughy in a way that it almost compacted when taking a bite?
Specificaly the crust further away from the crust edge.

And how did the bottom crust turn out, any crisp or crunchiness?

I have had the Gallo brand before, but this was the "premium" Gallo brand. I picked this up at Cash and Carry on San Carlos in San Jose. This pepperoni really tasted like a commerical type pepperoni you would expect in a pizzaria. The sauce was way off, but the cheese made up for it. This gave me more insight into how to go about tackling the sauce, because the cheese component was really close to the real thing. 

Dan I just want to double check on a few things.

• First: Is the pepperoni "premium Gallo" or is it the "Premium Galileo" which has a label identical to Gallo salami ect?
  
  You were happy with the cheese blend, which brands and styles are you using?
  
  Cash N Carry has the Angela Mia concentrated crushed tomatoes, I highly suggest this product

for the base of the RT sauce. It's the closest I have found (I prefer the Escalon CCT, but they aren't easy to come by right now.)

[Pete-zza]

DNA Dan,

California, where there are many RTs, has an issue with bromated flours. However, there is a GM bleached, unbromated All Trumps (50145): http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/A%20Trumps%20Enr%20Mal%20BL%20Unbro50145.doc. Whether you can locate some is another question.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Precisely! That's why I suspected that #50145 would be a good starting point. Out of all the GM flours which have multiple codes, that is one of the few that has a spec sheet all by itself. In addition, it only comes as a 50# sack. I just have to hunt some down!

What do you suppose the bromated process does to the flour in terms of final product?

Did the texture of the crust seem thoroughly cooked but somehow doughy in a way that it almost compacted when taking a bite?
Specificaly the crust further away from the crust edge.

And how did the bottom crust turn out, any crisp or crunchiness?

The crust was similar to a regular American style. It was like eating a thick American style. Crunchy on the edge, not too chewy. It did taste more doughy in the center, even though it was cooked. It was a soft crumb. The bottom was crispy, but that was a dry crispy because I used a pizza stone and there wasn't a lot of moisture. It got more soft as it sat on the counter. I guess some would call that SOGGY! It had more of a "bread" flavor to it, but I could totally tell the difference in flavor with the malted flour.

I will check on the pepperoni when I get home, although I am pretty sure it's PREMIUM GALLO

[DNA Dan]

DNA Dan,

California, where there are many RTs, has an issue with bromated flours. However, there is a GM bleached, unbromated All Trumps (50145): http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/A%20Trumps%20Enr%20Mal%20BL%20Unbro50145.doc. Whether you can locate some is another question.

Peter

If the Potassium Bromate has no noticeable difference in product, then Bleached, Enriched All Trumps is our guy. The Superlative and High-Gluten flour both have Ascorbic Acid added as a dough conditioner. This isn't on the RT label. Would it need to be? I think so.

[DNA Dan]

Gosh, dang, darnit! You always get me on these deals Lydia! The pepperoni is PREMIUM GALILEO. The label is a total ripoff of Gallo, but that certainly explains the difference in taste!

[Lydia]

Dan

In your defense, SaraLee bought out/merged with Gallo meats and this is about the time that Papa Murphy's stopped bragging about using premium Gallo pepperoni. (Note that Sara Lee is the manufacturer of Galileo). I'm fully convinced that it is essentially still Gallo because I can't note any difference.

The Gallo is the super-market is pretty nasty.   

I just wanted to be sure they didn't change things on me again.

Did you mention what brand and style cheeses you used?

[Pete-zza]

What do you suppose the bromated process does to the flour in terms of final product?

DNA Dan,

If you go to Potassium Bromate in the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, you will see the purpose of the bromate and how it affects the dough. Basically, it keeps the dough in a risen state during proofing, just before baking. Bromated flours are preferred by many bakers who proof their doughs, such as deep-dish doughs, Sicilian doughs, etc.

Peter